R+L=J v.51

[Ygrain]

There's a reference guide? :drool:

There! Yet another person who jumps in the middle of the thread and doesn't read the first page! Shame on you! :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

[Maxpey]

There! Yet another person who jumps in the middle of the thread and doesn't read the first page! Shame on you! :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

Sorry. Couldn't resist. ;)

[MtnLion]

@Lady Gwynhyfvar:

Per the previous thread regarding Brandon and Ashara, I agree with the Authorian analogy, and think that is most apt.

@Mtn.Lion:

I had three minutes to get out the door to go to WORK, and didn't have the text "dog-eared" in front of me, but thanks for the fix.

Personally I think where Selmy and Ashara are concerned, he's having delusions of grandeur.

And Selmys "Prime Directive" is to obey the KIng- any King, or whatever wearing a crown.

I think his sole purpose in his POV was to circumvent Rhaegar. He thinks had HE thinks, he could have chosen Ashara, hence no crowning of Lyanna, no outrage, and later, no rebellion, or so he believes.

While I trust his POV above others, he has a high opinion of himself and what he thinks he could have impacted.

That doesn't explain why Barristan would have preferred that Ashara look to him in addition or to the exclusion of looking to Stark. Remember the crown was awarded at teh conclusion of the tourney, and during the ten preceeding days was when Ashara was dishonored.

[Arya's Italics]

Does anyone else have the mental image of Ned strapping baby Jon into a BabyBjorn before hopping on his horse and heading to Winterfell??

[Valyrian Steel Link]

I'm a fan of the theory and think it is correct, but there was one thing that has me doubting. This is along the lines of "Why Doesn't Ned Think of Lyanna As Jon's Mom?" Not specifically "Why Didn't Ned Think of Rhaegar As Jon's Father?", but Ned states in GoT (the Ned POV chapter where they visit the whorehouse):

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

I guess I would just be surprised that Ned wouldn't frequently consider the father of his sister's child whose secret he was keeping. Has this been discussed?

[The guy from the Vale]

I will be the first person to admit that I have, at best, a layman's understanding of mythology and literature.

Are you saying that having a lost heir claim his rightful place on the throne (Jon) is a cliche, but it's acceptable because it's consistent with traditional themes that are found in mythology?

Yes and no. It really depends on how all of this plays out; we still don't know if (or why, or under which circumstances) Jon will take the throne at all. I think it would be cliché if he gained the throne just because of his heritage, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that. Jon will have to fight for it if he wants (or needs) the throne.

That said, yes, the theme of the hidden king or heir has strong mythological roots. Odysseus arrives in Ithaka as a beggar, and keeps up the disguise until he is ready to enact his revenge. Romulus and Remus are the grandchildren of king Numitor who was usurped by his brother Amulius. They are brought up by wolves, and later they unwittingly take revenge on their uncle. When offered the crown themselves, they refuse and found their own city state. Oedipus is the unwitting heir to the city of Thebes, kills his father and marries his mother without knowing the identity of either, and becomes king of Thebes that way (even though he would have been the rightful king of Thebes after his father's death already). Arthur is the son of the deposed king Uther Pendragon, and becomes king once he finds out about his parentage.

So in essence... yes, there are lots of mythic overtones to the true king claiming his throne, and they are not cliché in and of themselves. The circumstances matter in all these cases.

[Jon Icefyre]

I'm a fan of the theory and think it is correct, but there was one thing that has me doubting. This is along the lines of "Why Doesn't Ned Think of Lyanna As Jon's Mom?" Not specifically "Why Didn't Ned Think of Rhaegar As Jon's Father?", but Ned states in GoT (the Ned POV chapter where they visit the whorehouse):

I guess I would just be surprised that Ned wouldn't frequently consider the father of his sister's child whose secret he was keeping. Has this been discussed?

Yes but we know that quote isn't true because Ned actually thinks of Rhaegar several times throughout GOT including before he made that specific quote.

[MtnLion]

@finger, saying that Varys is a liar doesn't make it so. Produce an instance where Varys indeed lies. I know that he misdirects or assumes alternate identities, but unlike Littlefinger who does lie, he doesn't.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm a fan of the theory and think it is correct, but there was one thing that has me doubting. This is along the lines of "Why Doesn't Ned Think of Lyanna As Jon's Mom?" Not specifically "Why Didn't Ned Think of Rhaegar As Jon's Father?", but Ned states in GoT (the Ned POV chapter where they visit the whorehouse):

I guess I would just be surprised that Ned wouldn't frequently consider the father of his sister's child whose secret he was keeping. Has this been discussed?

I think it has actually. It seems like a case of unreliable narrator because he thinks of Rhaegar frequently. A quick ebook search shows no less than 10 mentions of Rhaegar in Ned's POV prior to that one. What's more likely is that he is thinking of Rhaegar in a specific way in that passage (ie as Jon's father) which is something he most likely tries to avoid doing. ETA- :ninja: Jon Icefyre :)

[FrozenFire3]

I will be the first person to admit that I have, at best, a layman's understanding of mythology and literature.

Are you saying that having a lost heir claim his rightful place on the throne (Jon) is a cliche, but it's acceptable because it's consistent with traditional themes that are found in mythology?

Lost heir, he certainly is. That he will claim his rightful place on the throne, is not certain at all.

Tragic heroes - when not sacrificed to the necessity of their journey - end up suffering the weight of a destiny they have not chosen for themselves. They are reluctant actors in a play they have not written. That is their tragedy. That is the tragedy of human condition.

When a great author is capable of injecting his/her creativity into the mold of classical tragic themes and/or universal archetypes - the twisted irony of ananke (fate), the futility of messing with destiny, the chain of the past (It all goes back and back... To our mother and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads) - the result is usually... well, timeless cough * Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Dante, Shakespeare etc. * cough ;)

ETA elective affinities with the guyfromtheVale

[Ygrain]

Yes and no. It really depends on how all of this plays out; we still don't know if (or why, or under which circumstances) Jon will take the throne at all. I think it would be cliché if he gained the throne just because of his heritage, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that. Jon will have to fight for it if he wants (or needs) the throne.

That said, yes, the theme of the hidden king or heir has strong mythological roots. Odysseus arrives in Ithaka as a beggar, and keeps up the disguise until he is ready to enact his revenge. Romulus and Remus are the grandchildren of king Numitor who was usurped by his brother Amulius. They are brought up by wolves, and later they unwittingly take revenge on their uncle. When offered the crown themselves, they refuse and found their own city state. Oedipus is the unwitting heir to the city of Thebes, kills his father and marries his mother without knowing the identity of either, and becomes king of Thebes that way (even though he would have been the rightful king of Thebes after his father's death already). Arthur is the son of the deposed king Uther Pendragon, and becomes king once he finds out about his parentage.

So in essence... yes, there are lots of mythic overtones to the true king claiming his throne, and they are not cliché in and of themselves. The circumstances matter in all these cases.

Speaking of mythical twin founders, here you go the Greek version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphion_and_Zethus

On the whole the Greek mythology is full of hidden heirs of special origin (mostly by Zeus, who was kinda Greek Robert among gods :D)

[FrozenFire3]

Speaking of mythical twin founders, here you go the Greek version: http://en.wikipedia....hion_and_Zethus

On the whole the Greek mythology is full of hidden heirs of special origin (mostly by Zeus, who was kinda Greek Robert among gods :D)

Absolutely LOL

In most cases the undisclosed ancestry is source of endless grief and tragedy. People try to play Fate ending up being played (Rhaegar anyone?).

To the great list of theguyfromtheVale I'd add the case of Paris. Yeah, Ananke is a... witch ;)

[finger]

Lost heir, he certainly is. That he will claim his rightful place on the throne, is not certain at all.

Tragic heroes - when not sacrificed to the necessity of their journey - end up suffering the weight of a destiny they have not chosen for themselves. They are reluctant actors in a play they have not written. That is their tragedy. That is the tragedy of human condition.

When a great author is capable of injecting his/her creativity into the mold of classical tragic themes and/or universal archetypes - the twisted irony of ananke (fate), the futility of messing with destiny, the chain of the past (It all goes back and back... To our mother and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads) - the result is usually... well, timeless cough * Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Dante, Shakespeare etc. * cough ;)

ETA elective affinities with the guyfromtheVale

I love this quote. Tyrion talking with Oberyn, isn't it?

Martin makes a great use of myths, you have Paris "abducting" Helen,...Or in Middle Ages, Arthur hidden as a ward when he was a chid,..

Also details from the Irish and Arturic cycles are often present. There's a lot of work in this novels.

Eta: :ninja:

[FrozenFire3]

I love this quote. Tyrion talking with Oberyn, isn't it?

Yep :)

It is so relevant. Asoiaf in one line.

[VaramyrSixchins]

I've often wondered how Cat answered when Ned demanded to know where she'd heard the Ashara rumor. The only confirmed WF resident that we know heard the Ashara rumor was Harwin. What's interesting is that Jon's age necessitates Ned to have claimed he was a product of infidelity. Indeed, he cites guilt for "dishonoring his lady wife" when he speaks to Robert as a reason for his tight-lipped manner about it. Yet, the confirmed WF resident in-the-know about the Ashara rumor, Harwin, specifically talks about the Ned/Ashara thing happening before the betrothal. It begs the question how Cat heard that Ashara might be the mother, yet didn't hear that the seeds of the romance began before the war? Now, obviously, Jon's age means he HAD to have been conceived during the war, & Cat knows this, but it seems if she truly gave credence to the Ashara rumor, how did she not know the romance began prior to her? And would the knowledge that Jon's mom was someone Ned had a prior history with somehow factor into her feelings about Jon?

[gash]

50+ Now? Holy crap...How is this still going on?

Well, I do want to say that people can talk/repeat A LOT of stuff on this fourm.

i find it quite odd myself. especially cause its the theory most widely accepted by fans. lots of repeating going on.

[JonNonRegis]

i find it quite odd myself. especially cause its the theory most widely accepted by fans. lots of repeating going on.

Mostly, it's because Martin is such a slow writer; writing this sentence would be a hard morning's labor for him.

So in the absence of a clear answer, fans spin their wheels on things like this.

It's also because the arrogance of the R+L=J camp is extraordinary and frequent.

Under normal circumstances, one could bypass years of witless babble by simply making a bet. Nothing says "put up or shut up" like good cold cash.

Unfortunately, here too Martin's sluggish performance renders a bet difficult to imagine, because it would take forever and a day to win or lose such a bet. Some of us will certainly die before the series ends. Martin himself may.

Here's a new topic: If it were possible to bet against R+L=J, what kind of odds would a bookie give? 10:1? Worse?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Does anyone else have the mental image of Ned strapping baby Jon into a BabyBjorn before hopping on his horse and heading to Winterfell??

I did not but now I can think of nothing else.

[Chunk88]

I did not but now I can think of nothing else.

Haha yep me too.

Has to be a minor miracle Jon survived the trek North...was Howland breast feeding him the whole time until the neck?

Anyway, more on topic....I'm sure this has been brought up, but damned if I'm reading 50 threads. One of the reasons I buy in to the theory and that also Lyanna and Rhaegar were actually in love is the way Selmy refers to Rhaegar, Selmy is basically the most moral person in the whole series and he swears that Rhaegar was such a great man. Hoping that either way it is revealed in the next book and we don't have to wait until the 7th because Jesus Christ.

[Jon Icefyre]

Haha yep me too.

Has to be a minor miracle Jon survived the trek North...was Howland breast feeding him the whole time until the neck?

Anyway, more on topic....I'm sure this has been brought up, but damned if I'm reading 50 threads. One of the reasons I buy in to the theory and that also Lyanna and Rhaegar were actually in love is the way Selmy refers to Rhaegar, Selmy is basically the most moral person in the whole series and he swears that Rhaegar was such a great man. Hoping that either way it is revealed in the next book and we don't have to wait until the 7th because Jesus Christ.

:agree: Ser Barristan also says,"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it."

So I think at least Ser Barristan definitely thought the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship was one of love.....