R+L=J v.51

[Alia of the knife]

Does anyone else have the mental image of Ned strapping baby Jon into a BabyBjorn before hopping on his horse and heading to Winterfell??

Yes. :laugh:

But, on a sadder note, I can also see a sleeping Jon, (First of his Name), sleeping peacefully against Neds cloak while the TOJ is torn down around his parents memories. :frown5:

[Night'sQueen]

Unfortunately, here too Martin's sluggish performance renders a bet difficult to imagine, because it would take forever and a day to win or lose such a bet. Some of us will certainly die before the series ends. Martin himself may.

When I found myself worrying that GRRM might die before he finishes the series is when I knew my borderline unhealthy obsession with ASoIaF had become a real sickness.

[Israel]

what has this become?

freys and mythology?

the niobe?

The only question I found that was remotely r+l= J was if Howland was nursing Jon with his crannog teats

and no he wargs all the closest cows and goats to come over to milk them along the way.

If you dont believe r+l+J you believe Gerold Hightower chose not to die for his King but for somene else.

[Ygrain]

what has this become?

freys and mythology?

the niobe?

The only question I found that was remotely r+l= J was if Howland was nursing Jon with his crannog teats

and no he wargs all the closest cows and goats to come over to milk them along the way.

If you dont believe r+l+J you believe Gerold Hightower chose not to die for his King but for somene else.

You're more than welcome to start a topic. With no newcomers or deniers currently around, the regular tend to go off topic because we know what the first duty of KG is.

[Blackfish1992]

what has this become?

freys and mythology?

the niobe?

The only question I found that was remotely r+l= J was if Howland was nursing Jon with his crannog teats

and no he wargs all the closest cows and goats to come over to milk them along the way.

If you dont believe r+l+J you believe Gerold Hightower chose not to die for his King but for somene else.

He let Aerys and Aegon die, so why not?

Edit: v.49 all over again :devil:

[Ygrain]

He let Aerys and Aegon die, so why not?

Edit: v.49 all over again :devil:

/sigh/

Yep. Please re-read the argumentation over there, the link is on the first page. I really do not feel like delving into "letting somebody die" if the person was not even present and makes it clear that he would have acted to prevent it had he been there.

[Blackfish1992]

/sigh/

Yep. Please re-read the argumentation over there, the link is on the first page. I really do not feel like delving into "letting somebody die" if the person was not even present and makes it clear that he would have acted to prevent it had he been there.

Spending a couple of months in the Dornish sun knowing things are getting rough in KL and at the trident is the same thing for me, regardless of the information problem. But you can reread my argumentation there as well.

[FrozenFire3]

Yes. :laugh:

But, on a sadder note, I can also see a sleeping Jon, (First of his Name), sleeping peacefully against Neds cloak while the TOJ is torn down around his parents memories. :frown5:

Talking of sad visual imagery, sleeping babies and... cloaks: http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/146/5/b/first_of_his_name___lyanna___jon_by_cmbaggs-d66n8bg.jpg

Btw, strange how every time our discussion tries to delve into a more challenging textual analysis, symbolic/allegoric research or into cultural/historical references, it gets immediately sacrificed on the worn out ruins of the tower of joy :rolleyes:

[Ygrain]

Btw, strange how every time our discussion tries to delve into a more challenging textual analysis, symbolic/allegoric research or into cultural/historical references, it gets immediately sacrificed on the worn out ruins of the tower of joy :rolleyes:

There it began, and there it ended.

[WhiteOwl18]

Talking of sad visual imagery, sleeping babies and... cloaks: http://fc07.devianta...ggs-d66n8bg.jpg

My heart just broke a little with that picture! So beautiful, yet so sad! :crying:

[The guy from the Vale]

Spending a couple of months in the Dornish sun knowing things are getting rough in KL and at the trident is the same thing for me, regardless of the information problem. But you can reread my argumentation there as well.

But we don't know if they actually knew things were getting rough at all. Plus, even if things were going rough, Aerys still had KG protection the entire time (well, until Jaime broke his oath...) Viserys doesn't have KG protection at all.

[Ygrain]

But we don't know if they actually knew things were getting rough at all. Plus, even if things were going rough, Aerys still had KG protection the entire time (well, until Jaime broke his oath...) Viserys doesn't have KG protection at all.

...as we reiterated ad nauseam in v.49, that things went south only after Trident. Seems we're for another round.

Speaking of sad moments and ToJ:

http://delaney02.deviantart.com/art/Promise-me-Ned-292893999

http://crisurdiales.deviantart.com/art/Blood-and-roses-207013205

[Blackfish1992]

But we don't know if they actually knew things were getting rough at all. Plus, even if things were going rough, Aerys still had KG protection the entire time (well, until Jaime broke his oath...) Viserys doesn't have KG protection at all.

Come on Aerys send Hightower to get Rheagar so he knew what was going on. And leaving a 16 year old in charge of you most important job, good swordsman as he may be isn't really what you expect the KG to do ... . Unless orders go above duty to protect the king ofc. That's what seems most logical to me.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Before this degenerates into a ToJ thread, I want to toss something new-ish out there.

I proposed something in a thread about Arthurian parallels that might have some traction here. As part of a discussion about the shifting nature of the Arthurian parallels, I made a case that on some levels you can see a Gwenhyfar-Lancelot parallel with R+L. (Rather than explain the entire thing, here is the link http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87114-a-closer-look-at-arthur-gwenhyfar-and-lancelot/#entry4423029)

The key bit that I think transfers over here is the Lyanna as Gwenhyfar the captive queen analogy. In many versions of that particular story, Lancelot's "kidnapping" of Gwenhyfar is actually a rescue. The king (Arthur) has discovered their affair and condemned Gwenhyfar to death by fire. What I suggested is that in this case the King (Aerys) may have actually discovered Lyanna's KotLT deception (did it take him months of "investigating" to figure it out, or perhaps months or arguing with his eldest son?) and sent soldiers to bring her to face the King's "Justice" We know from Jaime that by this stage, Aerys' idea of justice was fire. Rhaegar's "kidnapping" may have been an actual rescue of a highborn maiden condemned to death by the Mad King.

Aside from the continuation of a great number of parallels that I mention in the other thread, what I like about this is what it explains:

- Lyanna taken at "sword point." Aerys' soldiers indeed attempt take her at sword point, and state their intention of taking her to KL, only to be foiled by the dramatic "rescue" by Rhaegar, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell

- Brandon galloping to KL. Smallfolk "witnesses" have no idea what is happening except that men with swords are shouting about King's Landing and the Crown Prince and 2 KG take off with Lyanna Stark. Brandon the hothead hears the confused tale and gallops off to "rescue" his sister

- Stark family reaction. Rhaegar has the foresight to notify Lord Rickard. Brandon, being absent, does not get the memo. Rickard knows his daughter is safe, alerts his second son of that fact, and goes to try to save his heir from the Mad King

- Rhaegar's abandonment of Elia. Not necessarily premeditated in this case. All the other factors would still apply- Elia's inability to have another child, Rhaegar's obsession with having three heirs and his fascination with the young Miss Stark. But the actual kidnapping would originate as something more honorable, and the affair would happen more organically

Finally, and for me the single thing that set me on this train of thought- when Lancelot rescues Gwenhyfar, he flees with her to his castle Joyous Gard, where they remain for a year before Lancelot perishes in a battle fought in her name.

[Blackfish1992]

Before this degenerates into a ToJ thread, I want to toss something new-ish out there.

I proposed something in a thread about Arthurian parallels that might have some traction here. As part of a discussion about the shifting nature of the Arthurian parallels, I made a case that on some levels you can see a Gwenhyfar-Lancelot parallel with R+L. (Rather than explain the entire thing, here is the link http://asoiaf.wester...t/#entry4423029)

The key bit that I think transfers over here is the Lyanna as Gwenhyfar the captive queen analogy. In many versions of that particular story, Lancelot's "kidnapping" of Gwenhyfar is actually a rescue. The king (Arthur) has discovered their affair and condemned Gwenhyfar to death by fire. What I suggested is that in this case the King (Aerys) may have actually discovered Lyanna's KotLT deception (did it take him months of "investigating" to figure it out, or perhaps months or arguing with his eldest son?) and sent soldiers to bring her to face the King's "Justice" We know from Jaime that by this stage, Aerys' idea of justice was fire. Rhaegar's "kidnapping" may have been an actual rescue of a highborn maiden condemned to death by the Mad King.

Aside from the continuation of a great number of parallels that I mention in the other thread, what I like about this is what it explains:

- Lyanna taken at "sword point." Aerys' soldiers indeed attempt take her at sword point, and state their intention of taking her to KL, only to be foiled by the dramatic "rescue" of Rhaegar, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell

- Brandon galloping to KL. Smallfolk "witnesses" have no idea what is happening except that men with swords are shouting about King's Landing and the Crown Prince and 2 KG take off with Lyanna Stark. Brandon the hothead hears the confused tale and gallops off to "rescue" his sister

- Stark family reaction. Rhaegar has the foresight to notify Lord Rickard. Brandon, being absent, does not get the memo. Rickard knows his daughter is safe, alerts his second son of that fact, and goes to try to save his heir from the Mad King

- Rhaegar's abandonment of Elia. Not necessarily premeditated in this case. All the other factors would still apply- Elia's inability to have another child, Rhaegar's obsession with having three heirs and his fascination with the young Miss Stark. But the actual kidnapping would originate as something more honorable, and the affair would happen more organically

Finally, and for me the single thing that set me on this train of thought- when Lancelot rescues Gwenhyfar, he flees with her to his castle Joyous Gard, where they remain for a year before Lancelot perishes in a battle fought in her name.

Nice theory, could very well be true. Some assumptions made but plausible.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Nice theory, could very well be true. Some assumptions made but plausible.

Thank you! Yes, drawing a parallel of this nature involves some assuming, or what I would call cognitive leaps. It is the similarities which definitely exist which suggest the leaps though :)

[WhiteOwl18]

Before this degenerates into a ToJ thread, I want to toss something new-ish out there.

I proposed something in a thread about Arthurian parallels that might have some traction here. As part of a discussion about the shifting nature of the Arthurian parallels, I made a case that on some levels you can see a Gwenhyfar-Lancelot parallel with R+L. (Rather than explain the entire thing, here is the link http://asoiaf.wester...t/#entry4423029)

The key bit that I think transfers over here is the Lyanna as Gwenhyfar the captive queen analogy. In many versions of that particular story, Lancelot's "kidnapping" of Gwenhyfar is actually a rescue. The king (Arthur) has discovered their affair and condemned Gwenhyfar to death by fire. What I suggested is that in this case the King (Aerys) may have actually discovered Lyanna's KotLT deception (did it take him months of "investigating" to figure it out, or perhaps months or arguing with his eldest son?) and sent soldiers to bring her to face the King's "Justice" We know from Jaime that by this stage, Aerys' idea of justice was fire. Rhaegar's "kidnapping" may have been an actual rescue of a highborn maiden condemned to death by the Mad King.

Aside from the continuation of a great number of parallels that I mention in the other thread, what I like about this is what it explains:

- Lyanna taken at "sword point." Aerys' soldiers indeed attempt take her at sword point, and state their intention of taking her to KL, only to be foiled by the dramatic "rescue" by Rhaegar, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell

- Brandon galloping to KL. Smallfolk "witnesses" have no idea what is happening except that men with swords are shouting about King's Landing and the Crown Prince and 2 KG take off with Lyanna Stark. Brandon the hothead hears the confused tale and gallops off to "rescue" his sister

- Stark family reaction. Rhaegar has the foresight to notify Lord Rickard. Brandon, being absent, does not get the memo. Rickard knows his daughter is safe, alerts his second son of that fact, and goes to try to save his heir from the Mad King

- Rhaegar's abandonment of Elia. Not necessarily premeditated in this case. All the other factors would still apply- Elia's inability to have another child, Rhaegar's obsession with having three heirs and his fascination with the young Miss Stark. But the actual kidnapping would originate as something more honorable, and the affair would happen more organically

Finally, and for me the single thing that set me on this train of thought- when Lancelot rescues Gwenhyfar, he flees with her to his castle Joyous Gard, where they remain for a year before Lancelot perishes in a battle fought in her name.

I had never thought of this scenario, but it makes sense. Very well thought out! :agree:

[Martin of House Tyrell]

I had a question about this theory. It's probably been asked before, but why would it matter if Jon was indeed Rhaegar's child? He wouldn't become Jon Targaryen, he'd be Jon Sand. He would need a royal decree to legalize him, and only a Targaryen would ever do that. That leaves (f)Aegon, even if he isn't a Targaryen, he believes he is, but I don't think he'll ever sit the Iron Throne, and he wouldn't legalize Jon because that would mean he loses his claim. Otherwise, it'd have to be Daenerys, and I just don't see her legitimizing her beloved brother's bastard. Fact is, no matter who his father is, Jon is still a bastard, and therefore he has no claim to any titles or lands. Even if Stannis legitimizes him in the next book, Daenerys and Aegon will probably not recognize that, and Stannis hates Targaryens.

[Alia of the knife]

Talking of sad visual imagery, sleeping babies and... cloaks: http://fc07.devianta...ggs-d66n8bg.jpg

Btw, strange how every time our discussion tries to delve into a more challenging textual analysis, symbolic/allegoric research or into cultural/historical references, it gets immediately sacrificed on the worn out ruins of the tower of joy :rolleyes:

I KNOW, and I usually bow out of those discussions, because I really don't have much to contribute considering I think it's pretty obvious why they are there regardless of the nature of the KG.

That was the reason I started a TOJ/KG thread of it's own some time back.

That image is so haunting, :crying:

There is an actual photo of a wolf mother touching noses with her pup I'll have to find that reminds me so much of this, or at least conjures up the image of Lyannas few precious moments with Jon

Edit: Wolf Mother and Pup:

http://www.zooborns.com/.a/6a010535647bf3970b013481776955970c-800wi

...as we reiterated ad nauseam in v.49, that things went south only after Trident. Seems we're for another round.

Speaking of sad moments and ToJ:

http://delaney02.dev...e-Ned-292893999

http://crisurdiales....roses-207013205

Heartbreaking, but poignant. :crying:

Of course I had to snoop the rest of the Gallery, and the interaction between Aerys and Johanna is exactly what I expected as one gets the impression she was a good and honorable woman.

[a free shadow]

I had a question about this theory.

It is believed that Rhaegar had married Lyanna making her his second wife and Jon a legitimate child.

This is mostly supported by the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. From the dialogue Eddard recalls, it is clear the knights think they are still honouring their vows by being there. If Jon was illegitimate, their duty would be to protect Viserys.

Also, it is mentioned before that Trgaryens practised polygamy Jorah even suggest it as an option to Daenerys.