Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen?

[Tharvot]

gawd.

:stillsick:

[Roadside Rose]

When he says that girls always prefer fire to mud even though fire consumes you while mud can help you grow, can help you live, it seemed to me that it was conveying Barristan's regrets. Ashara didn't look at him because he was "mud". She was looking at someone else who was "fire" (Barristan says "all girls prefer fire to mud", he seems to be talking about a past experience and we know he refers A LOT to Ashara and his regrets towards her).

I have to agree with you. I read it as Ashara choosing fire over mud too. As much as I enjoyed reading this theory, this is one of the reasons where I think it falls short.

And I do think there must have been something between Ned and Ashara at some point in the story.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Hmm.. what if she isn't "hiding' but just living in the neck? She eloped and overtime people just made up reasons as to where she went. "the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated" :D

[Mayura]

Hmm.. what if she isn't "hiding' but just living in the neck? She eloped and overtime people just made up reasons as to where she went. "the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated" :D

Ha, it would be very convienient to support this nice theory :)

But the fact is: everyone in Westeros (so far) believes Ashara Dayne committed suicide (so, if she is in fact not dead, there must be an explanation for her faking her suicide and hiding afterwards) + persistant rumors about AD and a Stark cannot be ignored either

[Jalapenohitchhiker]

"the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated" :D

You. I like you.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Ha, it would be very convienient to support this nice theory :)

But the fact is: everyone in Westeros (so far) believes Ashara Dayne committed suicide (so, if she is in fact not dead, there must be an explanation for her faking her suicide and hiding afterwards) + persistant rumors about AD and a Stark cannot be ignored either

Ahhhh so many rumors in Westeros. Too bad they don't have a gossip columnist.

[A Crow Come Over]

But the fact is: everyone in Westeros (so far) believes Ashara Dayne committed suicide (so, if she is in fact not dead, there must be an explanation for her faking her suicide and hiding afterwards) + persistant rumors about AD and a Stark cannot be ignored either

Your fact doesnt discredit her idea, we know the crannogmen are reclusive and hardly anyone but the Starks consider them in a positive light, its not far fetched that Ashara just went there with Howland after the ToJ but didnt tell anyone so everyone made their own theories (kinda like here) and Ned never bothered to correct anyone.

The fact that he made the whispers stop in WF after Cat asked him if Ashara was dead also points to this.

[King of Winters]

Your fact doesnt discredit her idea, we know the crannogmen are reclusive and hardly anyone but the Starks consider them in a positive light, its not far fetched that Ashara just went there with Howland after the ToJ but didnt tell anyone so everyone made their own theories (kinda like here) and Ned never bothered to correct anyone.

The fact that he made the whispers stop in WF after Cat asked him if Ashara was dead also points to this.

Ned made the whispers stop in Winterfell because Cat heard rumours about Ashara being Jon's mother and asked him "the truth of it". Not if Ashara was dead or not.

But with GRRM nearly every character we don't see die are actually alive.

[Mayura]

Your fact doesnt discredit her idea, we know the crannogmen are reclusive and hardly anyone but the Starks consider them in a positive light, its not far fetched that Ashara just went there with Howland after the ToJ but didnt tell anyone so everyone made their own theories (kinda like here) and Ned never bothered to correct anyone.

The fact that he made the whispers stop in WF after Cat asked him if Ashara was dead also points to this.

At this point, it is just wishful thinking... Yes, it is very far-fetched to say Ashara "just went North with Howland after the TOJ" (absolutely no textual evidence points towards this situation) and that she "didn't tell anyone so they would make their own theories": why exactly would anyone care about Ashara Dayne being Howland Reed's wife? Why would she hide her little escape to the crannogman's house? If you guys have any coherent explanation for that secrecy, I'd be all up to hear it.

The only reason why people keep talking about Ashara Dayne in Westeros is because there are rumors she could be Ned's bastard's mother and because of her tragic story, hence because people love the gossip. Apart from that, absolutely nobody cares about her.

As to why Ned asked not to speak about Ashara again, it is because it was raising the question of Jon's parentage and if he let Catelyn hear that, he would have had 1) to lie further to her (inventing for example that Ashara or someone else was the mom) or 2) to have to reveal too much to her. If you re-read AGOT, you will have the explanation you're looking for about the effect shutting down/fighting rumors has: in AGOT, the protagonists say they will not fight Stannis's rumors about Joffrey's bastardry, they justify that by noting "the more you try to fight a rumor, the more people will give credit to it because it show there is something to hide, so we will just let the rumor die and we will laugh about it". By not wanting the rumors of Ashara being Jon's mom spoken again in Winterfell, Ned achieved two goals: 1) He stopped all discussions about Jon Snow's parentage at an early stage 2) He actually increased the people's belief that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother. (ETA: it seems to be why Ned Stark never denies anything when talking about Jon's mom. He doesn't deny to Robert Baratheon the mom was Wylla but he doesn't confirm either. He doesn't deny either to Cat or to Cersei the mom is Ashara Dayne. In Cat's case, he just asks her never to speak about this again. As long as people believe he is Jon's dad, it doesn't matter who they believe the mom is)

As to Ashara Dayne's death being a rumor and her just living nicely with Howland without actually hiding but conveniently not being seen in 15+ years: that would make a beautiful fan fiction but for it to work in the books, we would need then to have a reason why Ashara Dayne would let everyone in the world believe she is dead while nobody cares about her.

[King of Winters]

At this point, it is just wishful thinking... Yes, it is very far-fetched to say Ashara "just went North with Howland after the TOJ" (absolutely no textual evidence points towards this situation) and that she "didn't tell anyone so they would make their own theories": why exactly would anyone care about Ashara Dayne being Howland Reed's wife? Why would she hide her little escape to the crannogman's house? If you guys have any coherent explanation for that secrecy, I'd be all up to hear it.

The only reason why people keep talking about Ashara Dayne in Westeros is because there are rumors she could be Ned's bastard's mother and because of her tragic story, hence because people love the gossip. Apart from that, absolutely nobody cares about her.

As to why Ned asked not to speak about Ashara again, it is because it was raising the question of Jon's parentage and if he let Catelyn hear that, he would have had 1) to lie further to her (inventing for example that Ashara or someone else was the mom) or 2) to have to reveal too much to her. If you re-read AGOT, you will have the explanation you're looking for about the effect shutting down/fighting rumors has: in AGOT, the protagonists say they will not fight Stannis's rumors about Joffrey's bastardry, they justify that by noting "the more you try to fight a rumor, the more people will give credit to it because it show there is something to hide, so we will just let the rumor die and we will laugh about it". By not wanting the rumors of Ashara being Jon's mom spoken again in Winterfell, Ned achieved two goals: 1) He stopped all discussions about Jon Snow's parentage at an early stage 2) He actually increased the people's belief that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother. (ETA: it seems to be why Ned Stark never denies anything when talking about Jon's mom. He doesn't deny to Robert Baratheon the mom was Wylla but he doesn't confirm either. He doesn't deny either to Cat or to Cersei the mom is Ashara Dayne. In Cat's case, he just asks her never to speak about this again. As long as people believe he is Jon's dad, it doesn't matter who they believe the mom is)

As to Ashara Dayne's death being a rumor and her just living nicely with Howland without actually hiding but conveniently not being seen in 15+ years: that would make a beautiful fan fiction but for it to work in the books, we would need then to have a reason why Ashara Dayne would let everyone in the world believe she is dead while nobody cares about her.

I think there might be an unknown reason as to why Ashara is at Greywater Watch, if she is. She might be doing it so people don't discover that the Daynes, or specifically her, were helping Rhaegar and Lyanna, or start asking questions that could lead people to believe something else happened at the Tower of Joy, other than the fight.

[Mayura]

I think there might be an unknown reason as to why Ashara is at Greywater Watch, if she is. She might be doing it so people don't discover that the Daynes, or specifically her, were helping Rhaegar and Lyanna, or start asking questions that could lead people to believe something else happened at the Tower of Joy, other than the fight.

Yes, the might be. But then it means the theory is based on the assumption that there is an event that GRRM hasn't told anything about yet that happened at the TOJ and that this specific even (that has never been mentionned in the books) is linked to the Daynes.

The thing is: nobody is wondering what happened at the TOJ, not as far as we know. And anyway, Ashara Dayne wasn't at the TOJ, so I doubt anyone would come to her about the events that happened there. I do think Ashara Dayne, if she is alive, could be linked to the arcs of Barristan (obviously, and certainly Daenerys through Selmy), Jon (because if she knows anything, it is that neither her not "Wylla" are Jon's mothers and that he came directly from the TOJ where Rhaegar and Lyanna were) and possibly (f)Aegon.

As far as the narrative goes, having Ashara Dayne hiding at Greywater isn't useful at all, as far as we know. The only one I'd like to see coming from there is Howland Reed and the reason why he hasn't been seen since the Rebellion and also why he didn't come to the Winterfell but sent his kids instead. Grey Water Watch moves, what does that mean, is it supposed to be like Merlin's tower in the Arthurian cycle? (but that is a question for another thread I guess ;))

Mind you, this theory is nice but there are not enough evidence imo (even the ones given in the OP thread are taken out of context and thus biased -if it is the correct word, forgive me I am not an english speaker so I might make mistakes) although I only wish the OP could tell me I am wrong because I like it :-)

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Yes, the might be. But then it means the theory is based on the assumption that there is an event that GRRM hasn't told anything about yet that happened at the TOJ and that this specific even (that has never been mentionned in the books) is linked to the Daynes.

The thing is: nobody is wondering what happened at the TOJ, not as far as we know. And anyway, Ashara Dayne wasn't at the TOJ, so I doubt anyone would come to her about the events that happened there. I do think Ashara Dayne, if she is alive, could be linked to the arcs of Barristan (obviously, and certainly Daenerys through Selmy), Jon (because if she knows anything, it is that neither her not "Wylla" are Jon's mothers and that he came directly from the TOJ where Rhaegar and Lyanna were) and possibly (f)Aegon.

As far as the narrative goes, having Ashara Dayne hiding at Greywater isn't useful at all, as far as we know. The only one I'd like to see coming from there is Howland Reed and the reason why he hasn't been seen since the Rebellion and also why he didn't come to the Winterfell but sent his kids instead. Grey Water Watch moves, what does that mean, is it supposed to be like Merlin's tower in the Arthurian cycle? (but that is a question for another thread I guess ;))

Mind you, this theory is nice but there are not enough evidence imo (even the ones given in the OP thread are taken out of context and thus biased -if it is the correct word, forgive me I am not an english speaker so I might make mistakes) although I only wish the OP could tell me I am wrong because I like it :-)

I was kidding when I threw out the "she's just hiding" theory. Thanks for taking it seriously though.

As far as the Daynes needing a reason to go into hiding, I suppose it would depend on how much of a targaryen loyalist they were. If Arthur would have refused to bend the knee to Robert, going into hiding might have been necessary.

Whether or not them being in hiding adds anything to the narrative... i don't think we can really say. There's still too much that's not known, but you're right. I don't want them to be "alive" just for the heck of it. If they're alive and in hiding there better be a damn good, well-written reason for it. I love the Daynes but i like the series much more.

I'm willing to bounce around storylines, theories, and ideas till the cows come home because what we're proposing here is just speculative and fun. I'm waiting until I read what GRRM actually ends up writing. There's no point in becoming too enamoured with any of these theories. There's still too much we don't know for anyone to guess all that accurately.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Ha, it would be very convienient to support this nice theory :)

But the fact is: everyone in Westeros (so far) believes Ashara Dayne committed suicide (so, if she is in fact not dead, there must be an explanation for her faking her suicide and hiding afterwards) + persistant rumors about AD and a Stark cannot be ignored either

Folks seem to put a lot of stock into what the people of Westeros do and don't know. Remember, they don't have journalists, or newspapers, or twitter. People know what they're told and what they overhear. Even letters sent by ravens are unreliable. Most people heard rumors that Jon Connington was dead. So they assumed he's dead. Or that someone did this or that. Rumors are a great way to spread misinformation.

ETA:

I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that there's a difference between "hiding" and "not being looked for". Dany and Viserys have been in "hiding". Jon was not being looked for. The best way to "hide" is by not giving folks a reason to "search" for you. People don't typically search for people they believe to be dead.

[Mayura]

I was kidding when I threw out the "she's just hiding" theory. Thanks for taking it seriously though

Oops, I wasn't responding to what you said anymore, as I understood it was a joke, but to what "A Crow Come Over" replied after :-) however I agree with the rest of your post. We won't know how the story really develops until GRRM shows us, but it is really nice to be able to discuss possibilities. And, to be honest, I wouldn't like anything more than being proven wrong by what GRRM will write next, because I would really, really enjoy reading something I wasn't expecting to read.

Folks seem to put a lot of stock into what the people of Westeros do and don't know. Remember, they don't have journalists, or newspapers, or twitter. People know what they're told and what they overhear. Even letters sent by ravens are unreliable. Most people heard rumors that Jon Connington was dead. So they assumed he's dead. Or that someone did this or that. Rumors are a great way to spread misinformation.

ETA:

I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that there's a difference between "hiding" and "not being looked for". Dany and Viserys have been in "hiding". Jon was not being looked for. The best way to "hide" is by not giving folks a reason to "search" for you. People don't typically search for people they believe to be dead.

I agree with that, but there is, as far as we know, no reason for the Daynes to make people believe they are dead if they are having a good time up North. And IMO, actively faking your death (aka making people believe you're dead by throwing yourself in the sea and not giving a sign after/asking Ned Stark to pretend he killed you at the TOJ -admitting Arthur is alive) = very much hiding.

And I am also very much aware there is no Westerosi Facebook or any form of newspapers ;p (shame, we would know every gossip and that could be useful!), but as I stated earlier: there is no smoke without a fire. People assume Ashara Dayne is dead simply because she threw herself in the sea from a tower and her body was never found. After that, she was never seen again. People knew JonCon was very much alive and was hanging out with the Golden Company, until the day Varys asked JonCon to fake his death so he could be at Aegon's side.

One also has to remember there is a ring of truth in many rumors. I don't believe GRRM has made us familiar with all of these rumors surrounding AD's death, AD's involvment with Ned Stark etc as a red herring and for no other purpose than telling us at the end "there were all rumors and they are all false btw".

I'll try to look for H+A=M+J during my re-reads so I can stop playing the devil's advocate for a while ;-)

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Oops, I wasn't responding to what you said anymore, as I understood it was a joke, but to what "A Crow Come Over" replied after :-) however I agree with the rest of your post. We won't know how the story really develops until GRRM shows us, but it is really nice to be able to discuss possibilities. And, to be honest, I wouldn't like anything more than being proven wrong by what GRRM will write next, because I would really, really enjoy reading something I wasn't expecting to read.

Me too! I want to throw out all these theories and still be blown away by GRRM.

I agree with that, but there is, as far as we know, no reason for the Daynes to make people believe they are dead if they are having a good time up North. And IMO, actively faking your death (aka making people believe you're dead by throwing yourself in the sea and not giving a sign after/asking Ned Stark to pretend he killed you at the TOJ -admitting Arthur is alive) = very much hiding.

To be clear; I do agree with you but since i can't resist play devil's advocate myself. Being Targaryen loyalists who possibly knew a secret (Jon) that would threaten the crown (Robert) seems like a good enough reason to go into hiding. Additionally, considering Robert's acceptance of the death of the Elia and her children Ned might have encouraged them to take off.

And I am also very much aware there is no Westerosi Facebook or any form of newspapers ;p (shame, we would know every gossip and that could be useful!), but as I stated earlier: there is no smoke without a fire. People assume Ashara Dayne is dead simply because she threw herself in the sea from a tower and her body was never found. After that, she was never seen again. People knew JonCon was very much alive and was hanging out with the Golden Company, until the day Varys asked JonCon to fake his death so he could be at Aegon's side.

One also has to remember there is a ring of truth in many rumors. I don't believe GRRM has made us familiar with all of these rumors surrounding AD's death, AD's involvment with Ned Stark etc as a red herring and for no other purpose than telling us at the end "there were all rumors and they are all false btw".

I'll try to look for H+A=M+J during my re-reads so I can stop playing the devil's advocate for a while ;-)

Truth. However, it's not like faking one's death or being assumed dead takes a lot of effort. The Hound has recently done it. Mance has recently done it. Arya is currently doing it. Sansa is kind of doing it (not dead but missing). Bran and Rickon are both assumed dead by most of Westeros.

The lie needed to fake the deaths of AD would only have involved the Dayne family (in particular Allyria) and Ned. Those are the only source of information regarding what happened to AD. It's not like 50 people watched Ashara jump from the tower. People just heard that she flung herself from the tower.

The only reason I even entertain the idea is because of the way the information about her death is written. "After the events of the Tower of Joy, Ned Stark went to Starfall to inform House Dayne of Ser Arthur's death and return to them his greatsword, Dawn. Ashara jumped from the top of one of the towers of Starfall, called the Palestone Sword, on the cliff atop the sea. Her body was never recovered."

Why add the bit about her body never being recovered? If someone jumps from the top of a tower you typically assume they're dead. You wouldn't expect to recover a body. So, why point it out? This definitely could be a red herring but I think it's enough for reasonable doubt.

Devil's advocate is my favorite!

[Max Berg]

I like this theory a lot, especially the idea that the sword of the dawn is still alive to "confirm" Jon's inheritage.

It would also help unite all the factions since Jamie and Selmy are still around and would believe him.

[Mayura]

Truth. However, it's not like faking one's death or being assumed dead takes a lot of effort. The Hound has recently done it. Mance has recently done it. Arya is currently doing it. Sansa is kind of doing it (not dead but missing). Bran and Rickon are both assumed dead by most of Westeros.

The lie needed to fake the deaths of AD would only have involved the Dayne family (in particular Allyria) and Ned. Those are the only source of information regarding what happened to AD. It's not like 50 people watched Ashara jump from the tower. People just heard that she flung herself from the tower.

The only reason I even entertain the idea is because of the way the information about her death is written. "After the events of the Tower of Joy, Ned Stark went to Starfall to inform House Dayne of Ser Arthur's death and return to them his greatsword, Dawn. Ashara jumped from the top of one of the towers of Starfall, called the Palestone Sword, on the cliff atop the sea. Her body was never recovered."

Why add the bit about her body never being recovered? If someone jumps from the top of a tower you typically assume they're dead. You wouldn't expect to recover a body. So, why point it out? This definitely could be a red herring but I think it's enough for reasonable doubt.

Devil's advocate is my favorite!

On that regard, I also believe Ashara Dayne isn't dead and conveniently faked her death. I also think she will indeed have a role to play in asserting Jon's parentage (at least confirming neither her nor Wylla are Jon's mom).

Thus, I don't think Martin is playing us by having Ashara mentionned quite a lot for someone who is supposed to be dead (Cersei, Cat, Barristan, Meera talk about the Lady Ashara and also about her tragic death and her not recovered body) and saying her body wasn't recovered. I think her supposed death is indeed a rumor, but I don't however think that Ashara Dayne, if she survived, is hiding with Howland Reed. My personal favourite is that AD isn't dead and is septa Lemore, hence being right at the middle between the three "Targs" of the story (Jon, Aegon, Daenerys) and being able to influence the three arcs (Jon's by giving indications about the TOJ, might be she will reveal this to a dying JonCon, Aegon's because she can say to other Lords whether he is Aegon or Faegon, Dany because seeing her alive and supporting Aegon would leave a huge impression on Barristan Selmy, and I think he could betray Dany for love).

So, between the two theories 1) AD + HR or 2) AD = Lemore, the second one has my preference at the moment as it is more coherent with the current narrative. There are also more clues which could indicate AD = Lemore than AD + HR.

But who knows, maybe Ashara is dead and gone?

As for Arthur, I think he is definitely dead and died at the TOJ because he didn't want to abandon his duty and bend the knee to Bob Baratheon. If Arthur Daynes is alive, I will be disappointed because they way I imagined them, he was such a honorable man that he'd rather die because of what he did (giving Jon to Robert's bannerman) than surrender.

[Man of Many Faces]

Interesting theory, it could bring a whole new aspect to the story. I really like the quote about choosing mud over fire, I always picture the Crannogman living in a very muddy, swampy location. I'll be interested to see if this is true or not.

[C0bR]

The saddest possible thing about this is how would ser Arthur look today.

Instead of a shiny, young super knight we would get a middle aged man that has been living in a guilt of failing his best friend for 18 years while doing absolutely nothing but sitting on his ass in a swamp and possibly drowning himself in alcohol. That would be an ugly thing and exactly what GRRM would do with a situation like this.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

The saddest possible thing about this is how would ser Arthur look today.

Instead of a shiny, young super knight we would get a middle aged man that has been living in a guilt of failing his best friend for 18 years while doing absolutely nothing but sitting on his ass in a swamp and possibly drowning himself in alcohol. That would be an ugly thing and exactly what GRRM would do with a situation like this.

Interesting! I could see that.