Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen?

[MasterJack]

The saddest possible thing about this is how would ser Arthur look today.

Instead of a shiny, young super knight we would get a middle aged man that has been living in a guilt of failing his best friend for 18 years while doing absolutely nothing but sitting on his ass in a swamp and possibly drowning himself in alcohol. That would be an ugly thing and exactly what GRRM would do with a situation like this.

Or a man training his ass nostop for 18years, 40yo of pure skills. Ready complet his best friend's plan by guiding his last son throught his destiny. This is so unlike GRRM... why not!.

[jpdmy]

Perhaps Howland Reed had visions while on the Isle of Faces. It was these visions that saved Ned Stark's life because Howland explained to Arthur that in order for the heir to survive, Jon needed to go with Ned. Arthur, realizing the truth of Reed's words, either committed suicide or laid down his sword and let Ned kill him. My money is on the latter.

When Ned returned Dawn, it is stated in aGoT by Cat (so there may be some bias in this) that Ned returned Dawn specifically to Ashara. Perhaps, in the visions, Reed foresaw that Ashara needed to go replace Arthur as Jon's first kingsguard. This might help explain why Ashara faked her death and went to Greywater watch.

Yes, this is a stretch, but would be cool as this introduces us to another badass woman.

Or she could have another role to play, perhaps she is the key in getting Jon the sword, Dawn.

[Mayura]

Whuut?? Ashara is no Brienne and no Lady Mormont or Asha Greyjoy, I am afraid she was a lady in waiting and not a warrior, it would be ridiculous to have her as a middle aged woman in a KG...

Also, why would Jon need "Dawn", he already has Longclaw, the Mormont sword which is much more suited to him. Why would he swap it for Dawn? It would just cheapen the bon Jon x Mormont.

[King of Winters]

Also, why would Jon need "Dawn", he already has Longclaw, the Mormont sword which is much more suited to him. Why would he swap it for Dawn? It would just cheapen the bon Jon x Mormont.

There's a theory that Dawn could Lightbringer and Jon needs to wield it as AAR.

But I think that Lightbringer is the NW this time, and Dawn is the original Lightbringer and that it's also Dragonsteel, which Others can't stand.

[Mayura]

There's a theory that Dawn could Lightbringer and Jon needs to wield it as AAR.

But I think that Lightbringer is the NW this time, and Dawn is the original Lightbringer and that it's also Dragonsteel, which Others can't stand.

Yes, it is true Dawn was forged from the heart of a falling star > comet > Azor Ahai and so on.

But Dawn's blade has a milky color while dragonsteel seems to be black, if I remember correctly?

But I indeed don't think "Lightbringer" is a litteral sword. The fact Thoros of Myr and Melisandre created (or rather glamoured) swords to look like the "flaming sword Lightbringer" makes it sound a bit too cheesy for it to be a litteral swort IMO. I don't think ONE magic sword , or even one single boy, is going to defeat the numerous others. But that's another question :

[King of Winters]

Yes, it is true Dawn was forged from the heart of a falling star > comet > Azor Ahai and so on.

But Dawn's blade has a milky color while dragonsteel seems to be black, if I remember correctly?

But I indeed don't think "Lightbringer" is a litteral sword. The fact Thoros of Myr and Melisandre created (or rather glamoured) swords to look like the "flaming sword Lightbringer" makes it sound a bit too cheesy for it to be a litteral swort IMO. I don't think ONE magic sword , or even one single boy, is going to defeat the numerous others. But that's another question :

I don't think Dragonsteel's colour is said, but because Jon thinks it's Valyrian Steel, which I don't, it would be the colour of Valyrian Steel.

Dawn is described as "pale as milkglass, alive with light". So in a way, Dawn does bring light.

[Jalapenohitchhiker]

Or a man training his ass nostop for 18years, 40yo of pure skills. Ready complet his best friend's plan by guiding his last son throught his destiny. This is so unlike GRRM... why not!.

It's nice to be optimistic sometimes....

[Rhaegar's Love]

Ha, it would be very convienient to support this nice theory :)

But the fact is: everyone in Westeros (so far) believes Ashara Dayne committed suicide (so, if she is in fact not dead, there must be an explanation for her faking her suicide and hiding afterwards) + persistant rumors about AD and a Stark cannot be ignored either

The explanation as to why Ashara would have faked her suicide and went into hiding is actually quite easy. It seems very likely that the Danes had something to do with aiding Rhaegar and/or Lyanna in regards to the ToJ.

How do you think Robert would have reacted if he had ever found out that Ashara played a part in Lyanna's "imprisonment"? He always raged about how Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. It really doesn't seem likely that he would look favorably upon someone who "helped" with that. He'd probably call for her head straight away.

The safest thing for her to do at this point is to fake her death, and slip quietly away to Greywater Watch, lest she incur Robert's wrath. Then, after Robert died and subsequently Ned, the turmoil would hardly be an ideal time to make the fact that she was still alive known.

Add in that if Jojen is her son, he may have had greendreams and told her (possibly after Robert's death) it was best to wait for the big reveal.

Of course this is only one option and a big maybe, but it can make sense. :)

[Mayura]

How do you think Robert would have reacted if he had ever found out that Ashara played a part in Lyanna's "imprisonment"? He always raged about how Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. It really doesn't seem likely that he would look favorably upon someone who "helped" with that. He'd probably call for her head straight away.

The safest thing for her to do at this point is to fake her death, and slip quietly away to Greywater Watch, lest she incur Robert's wrath. Then, after Robert died and subsequently Ned, the turmoil would hardly be an ideal time to make the fact that she was still alive known.

But who would have told Robert Ashara had anything to do with that? Howland Reed and Ned Stark, two of Robert's bannermen, are the only persons who walked away from the TOJ. I doubt they'd had run to Robert to tell on Ashara. She was of Elia and Rhaega's entourage, but I doubt her best way to disappear was "going to Greywater Watch"

To be honest, I doubt the safer way for Ashara to "disappear quietly" and not be seen again is to cross half of Westeros with Ned Stark and Howland Reed...

If Ashara wanted to disappear, she was only a short distance away from Essos and the Free Cities where she would have been less likely to be recognised.

One last thing: people keep bringing up Ashara Dayne's beautiful violet eyes. This is a much less common feature in Westeros than in Essos. So it would actually be very dangerous for someone who wants to hide to go exactly where these features are least seen and where people can recognise you. Surely, crossing Westeros to reach the North wouldn't be a very good idea with such a striking feature.

[King of Winters]

But who would have told Robert Ashara had anything to do with that? Howland Reed and Ned Stark, two of Robert's bannermen, are the only persons who walked away from the TOJ. I doubt they'd had run to Robert to tell on Ashara. She was of Elia and Rhaega's entourage, but I doubt her best way to disappear was "going to Greywater Watch"

To be honest, I doubt the safer way for Ashara to "disappear quietly" and not be seen again is to cross half of Westeros with Ned Stark and Howland Reed...

If Ashara wanted to disappear, she was only a short distance away from Essos and the Free Cities where she would have been less likely to be recognised.

One last thing: people keep bringing up Ashara Dayne's beautiful violet eyes. This is a much less common feature in Westeros than in Essos. So it would actually be very dangerous for someone who wants to hide to go exactly where these features are least seen and where people can recognise you. Surely, crossing Westeros to reach the North wouldn't be a very good idea with such a striking feature.

Perhaps another Dornish house would have told Robert about the Daynes, helping Rhaegar help keep Lyanna "prisoner" and that would have been in danger.

And of Ashara is in Greywater Watch, she's in a safe place. It's hidden in the marshes and virtually nobody can find it, unless the Crannogmen want you to. It's in a remote area and ravens can't even find it, so it's probably one of the best places to hide for someone who needs hiding.

[Mayura]

Perhaps another Dornish house would have told Robert about the Daynes, helping Rhaegar help keep Lyanna "prisoner" and that would have been in danger.

And of Ashara is in Greywater Watch, she's in a safe place. It's hidden in the marshes and virtually nobody can find it, unless the Crannogmen want you to. It's in a remote area and ravens can't even find it, so it's probably one of the best places to hide for someone who needs hiding.

Why not? My devil's advocate spirit has nothing to say against that :)

The only problem would be getting there, it is less easy to go all the way back to Greywater Watch than nicely going to Essos. We know Ned went back with a red stallion so I guess they went by land and traveled quite some time

[C0bR]

Why not? My devil's advocate spirit has nothing to say against that :)

The only problem would be getting there, it is less easy to go all the way back to Greywater Watch than nicely going to Essos. We know Ned went back with a red stallion so I guess they went by land and traveled quite some time

Perhaps Howland and Ashara (and some wet nurse) went north by ship from Starfall, keeping Jon safe for a time being?

We know that Ned went by land (with Dustin's stallion and Lyanna's bones). We know really nothing about an immediate post-war time, but I assume that Ned needed to go back to his bannermen (which he probably left at SE/KL) and that he would've probably also went to KL to tell Robert about Lyanna and discuss the politics some more. He could've hardly done that with an infant in his arms.

Catelyn says that when she came to WF for the first time (with Robb and presumably picked up by Ned at Riverrun when he was riding north), Jon was already there with his wet nurse.

So they go to White Harbor by a ship, deliver Jon to WF with orders from Ned to Maester and then they go for GW.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Perhaps Howland and Ashara (and some wet nurse) went north by ship from Starfall, keeping Jon safe for a time being?

We know that Ned went by land (with Dustin's stallion and Lyanna's bones). We know really nothing about an immediate post-war time, but I assume that Ned needed to go back to his bannermen (which he probably left at SE/KL) and that he would've probably also went to KL to tell Robert about Lyanna and discuss the politics some more. He could've hardly done that with an infant in his arms.

Catelyn says that when she came to WF for the first time (with Robb and presumably picked up by Ned at Riverrun when he was riding north), Jon was already there with his wet nurse.

So they go to White Harbor by a ship, deliver Jon to WF with orders from Ned to Maester and then they go for GW.

That makes sense. Though white harbor is a large place. It would be difficult to go unnoticed though I suppose not impossible.

[Mayura]

Yes, it is still not supported by any plausible textual evidence so far, but I don't consider this to be impossible anymore indeed.

However, I don't know what to think about Ashara: it depends where her loyalty lies. I am shared between two opinions if Ashara is alive:

• I think there are good chances she could have joined (f)Aegon and Varys's camp, she disappeared (people assumed she was dead) right after the Rebellion and would be a very useful element to have in (f)Aegon's entourage. She was a lady in waiting for Elia Martell, Elia and Oberyn had visited Starfall in their youth: it is unknown whether Elia and Ashara were close but they could have been. If so, Ashara could be in the (f)Aegon plan, sworn to protect E + R's son.
  
• Ashara disappeared roughly after Ned's visit to Starfall (accordingly, with Jon and Howland), so it is possible she would have wanted to leave with the northern team. We know from the rumors Ashara had been close to the Starks and she was close to the TOJ while her bro was keeping Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon inside. She could have gotten involved with them and agreed to protect Jon's secret.
  

In the end, it all depends whether some rumors are true or not. It depends wether the events that happened during the Rebellion damaged Ashara or not that much and whether she approved of the Lyanna x Rhaegar situation or whether she had been closer to Elia.

[King of Winters]

Yes, it is still not supported by any plausible textual evidence so far, but I don't consider this to be impossible anymore indeed.

However, I don't know what to think about Ashara: it depends where her loyalty lies. I am shared between two opinions if Ashara is alive:

• I think there are good chances she could have joined (f)Aegon and Varys's camp, she disappeared (people assumed she was dead) right after the Rebellion and would be a very useful element to have in (f)Aegon's entourage. She was a lady in waiting for Elia Martell, Elia and Oberyn had visited Starfall in their youth: it is unknown whether Elia and Ashara were close but they could have been. If so, Ashara could be in the (f)Aegon plan, sworn to protect E + R's son.
  
• Ashara disappeared roughly after Ned's visit to Starfall (accordingly, with Jon and Howland), so it is possible she would have wanted to leave with the northern team. We know from the rumors Ashara had been close to the Starks and she was close to the TOJ while her bro was keeping Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon inside. She could have gotten involved with them and agreed to protect Jon's secret.
  

In the end, it all depends whether some rumors are true or not. It depends wether the events that happened during the Rebellion damaged Ashara or not that much and whether she approved of the Lyanna x Rhaegar situation or whether she had been closer to Elia.

If the KG knew about Aegon being dead then Ashara would, and like them believe it. If Aegon was swapped then they'd still believe him dead and so wouldn't think much of staying with Lyanna.

I think Ashara did like Lyanna in the end, or helped them out, as she'd have probably known about the polygamy and so helped Rhaegar's second wife.

[Mayura]

If the KG knew about Aegon being dead then Ashara would, and like them believe it. If Aegon was swapped then they'd still believe him dead and so wouldn't think much of staying with Lyanna.

I think Ashara did like Lyanna in the end, or helped them out, as she'd have probably known about the polygamy and so helped Rhaegar's second wife.

Yes, that is one of the possibilities. But I still believe there are textual evidence pointing towards Lemore = Ashara and Ashara is with Aegon while this whole theory, although nice and not impossible, isn't supported by anything we've been presented with so far.

As for the relationships between Ashara x Lyanna, we haven't been told anything about it. They roads must have crossed at some point, especially if Ashara was close to the Starks and if she had an access to the TOJ (which is still unclear: there are so many secrets surrounding that Tower... Even Varys doesn't seem to know what happened there, so I am wondering whether Ashara was authorised to get in the TOJ). About Elia x Ashara, we know they've certainly met at Starfall, that they are both dornish and that Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting for a few years. Right now, it seems like Ashara knew Elia a bit more, but there are many things we haven't been told.

But anyway, I am also not convinced Ashara Dayne of Starfall, who seemed rather "liberated", chilled out and fun from what we know of her raised such uptight kids as Meera and Jojen. It would mean she didn't give them one bit of Dornish education.

[King of Winters]

Yes, that is one of the possibilities. But I still believe there are textual evidence pointing towards Lemore = Ashara and Ashara is with Aegon while this whole theory, although nice and not impossible, isn't supported by anything we've been presented with so far.

As for the relationships between Ashara x Lyanna, we haven't been told anything about it. They roads must have crossed at some point, especially if Ashara was close to the Starks and if she had an access to the TOJ (which is still unclear: there are so many secrets surrounding that Tower... Even Varys doesn't seem to know what happened there, so I am wondering whether Ashara was authorised to get in the TOJ). About Elia x Ashara, we know they've certainly met at Starfall, that they are both dornish and that Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting for a few years. Right now, it seems like Ashara knew Elia a bit more, but there are many things we haven't been told.

But anyway, I am also not convinced Ashara Dayne of Starfall, who seemed rather "liberated", chilled out and fun from what we know of her raised such uptight kids as Meera and Jojen. It would mean she didn't give them one bit of Dornish education.

Ser Arthur Dayne was at the Tower, so it would make sense if his sister helped them out with supplies and a midwife if they needed any.

And who's to say she didn't teach Meera and Jojen a bit of Dornish education? Meera is presented as Lady, not Jojen, who would heir to Greywater Watch; and Meera is also the toughest out of the two and she's capable of looking after herself.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Yes, it is still not supported by any plausible textual evidence so far, but I don't consider this to be impossible anymore indeed.

However, I don't know what to think about Ashara: it depends where her loyalty lies. I am shared between two opinions if Ashara is alive:

• I think there are good chances she could have joined (f)Aegon and Varys's camp, she disappeared (people assumed she was dead) right after the Rebellion and would be a very useful element to have in (f)Aegon's entourage. She was a lady in waiting for Elia Martell, Elia and Oberyn had visited Starfall in their youth: it is unknown whether Elia and Ashara were close but they could have been. If so, Ashara could be in the (f)Aegon plan, sworn to protect E + R's son.
  
• Ashara disappeared roughly after Ned's visit to Starfall (accordingly, with Jon and Howland), so it is possible she would have wanted to leave with the northern team. We know from the rumors Ashara had been close to the Starks and she was close to the TOJ while her bro was keeping Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon inside. She could have gotten involved with them and agreed to protect Jon's secret.
  

In the end, it all depends whether some rumors are true or not. It depends wether the events that happened during the Rebellion damaged Ashara or not that much and whether she approved of the Lyanna x Rhaegar situation or whether she had been closer to Elia.

Ashara left KL for starfall sometime during/right before the rebellion for unknown reasons. Its plausible the Aegon switch happened earlier than we anticipated. Perhaps Varys knew a switch occurred but assumed they (Ashara and the child) died. It has been a long time.

Personally, this theory leads me to believe that the real Aegon is out there with 3 kingsguards for protection and Ashara as a nanny/wet nurse. Perhaps some of Ned's men also went along with them. All of whom are able to vouch for his identity.

Perhaps the 3 heads are Daenerys, Aegon, and Jon.

[nekrohsis]

Here's my opinion on why Ashara changed her identity--she was the one who told Ned where Lyanna was. No one yet knows who tipped him off. Say Arthur told his family where Rhaegar had sent them. Ashara feels bad for Ned and wants him to know his sister is okay. She tips him off, which leads to her brother being killed. Her family knows its her fault Arthur died--she can't go home again

[Max Berg]

In reply to the first post of this theory and the possibility that Arthur Dayne survived, which I liked a lot, I believe Arthur Dayne should be considered dead. Consider this piece of text from GoT:

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."

It would have to be his granfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.