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maidenandwarrior

Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen?

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This is what he said:

This is not him hedging about Kingsguard vows. Someone asked straight up where Dawn was, and he unambiguously answered. Meaning, if Dawn is hiding in the Neck, he lied.

Arthur could have left it at Starfall because if you think about it it would be stupid to being it. I mean the common people may not know its super special but they will talk about a man carrying a milk colored Greatsword and eventually word of it will get to someone who would recognize it. So if it is Arthur's goal to watch over and protect Jon in secret leaving Dawn in Starfall would be in his best interest

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Arthur could have left it at Starfall because if you think about it it would be stupid to being it. I mean the common people may not know its super special but they will talk about a man carrying a milk colored Greatsword and eventually word of it will get to someone who would recognize it. So if it is Arthur's goal to watch over and protect Jon in secret leaving Dawn in Starfall would be in his best interest

Actually Dawn is the ancestral blade of house Dayne. It is passed to not the heir but the finest knight in the house, that's why it remains at starfall, till the new "Sword of the Morning" is chosen fron house Dayne and the sword is passed. That simple. No hidden mamba-jamba.

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Arthur could have left it at Starfall because if you think about it it would be stupid to being it. I mean the common people may not know its super special but they will talk about a man carrying a milk colored Greatsword and eventually word of it will get to someone who would recognize it. So if it is Arthur's goal to watch over and protect Jon in secret leaving Dawn in Starfall would be in his best interest

I still think this theory will be proven to be a beautiful fanfiction... It is made pretty clear that Ned brought Dawn back to Starfall and GRRM stated clearly that Dawn is still in Starfall at the moment the story of ASOIAF takes place. Technically, Dawn hasn't been seen for many years (since Arthur died I would assume), so it wouldn't matter at all if Arthur Dayne was alive and had decided to take it with him. If you support the theory that the Daynes have been hiding in a swamp, unseen, for oh so many years, then it doesn't matter whether Arthur Dayne took the sword with him or not, as anyway nobody saw it in years and years and he supposedly didn't move from Greywater.

There are no real textual evidence or even SSM that actually give weight to this theory. As much as I'm willing to concede that nothing disproves that Ashara couldn't be hiding with HR, I think Arthur Dayne is most likely dead and gone.

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So, Ashara lives, takes a fake name, and and moves to Greywater Watch to be with Howland. And?



I really don't see the point of this.


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I still think this theory will be proven to be a beautiful fanfiction... It is made pretty clear that Ned brought Dawn back to Starfall and GRRM stated clearly that Dawn is still in Starfall at the moment the story of ASOIAF takes place. Technically, Dawn hasn't been seen for many years (since Arthur died I would assume), so it wouldn't matter at all if Arthur Dayne was alive and had decided to take it with him. If you support the theory that the Daynes have been hiding in a swamp, unseen, for oh so many years, then it doesn't matter whether Arthur Dayne took the sword with him or not, as anyway nobody saw it in years and years and he supposedly didn't move from Greywater.

There are no real textual evidence or even SSM that actually give weight to this theory. As much as I'm willing to concede that nothing disproves that Ashara couldn't be hiding with HR, I think Arthur Dayne is most likely dead and gone.

To be fair, one doesn't have to swallow all of this theory to see its merits. I think Dawn is definitely at Starfall and Arthur Dayne is definitely dead, but I'd be lying if I said that the basic idea of Ashara marrying Howland wasn't a thousand times more fascinating and compelling than her jumping off a tower or being *gag* Septa Lemore.

So, Ashara lives, takes a fake name, and and moves to Greywater Watch to be with Howland. And?

I really don't see the point of this.

I believe the point has to do with her motives in doing so, i.e. what she knows.

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I like the Ashara part of this theory, but I don't buy the Ser Arthur part. I just don't see why he would want to go and hide at GW. If you think that Ser Arthur has been skirting around bushes and bunking with Dolorous Edd at Castle Black keeping tabs on Jon then you haven't been paying attention. The Kingsguard does not flee, and their knees do not bend so easily.


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To be fair, one doesn't have to swallow all of this theory to see its merits. I think Dawn is definitely at Starfall and Arthur Dayne is definitely dead, but I'd be lying if I said that the basic idea of Ashara marrying Howland wasn't a thousand times more fascinating and compelling than her jumping off a tower or being *gag* Septa Lemore.

I believe the point has to do with her motives in doing so, i.e. what she knows.

I personally think Ashara being Lemore would add much more to the story than her just having been in a swamp for oh so many years, living the romantic life of a crannogwoman with her darling Howland Reed. But either way, I wouldn't be disappointed anyway, George will amaze us, I am sure of that. I just don't like dismissing theories, anyway, as I don't pretend to know all of the mysteries of this series :) This A+H theory is just too far-stretched for my liking. But as none of us know what is actually in GRRM's head, who knows!

But we can agree on one thing: I don't think Ashara Dayne is dead. And I cannot wait to see what she was up to!

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Sorry I did not read everything, but why do you think Arthur Dayne is alive? The KG (the real ones, not Cersei's pretenders) do not strike me as the type to run away and hide. They would rather die in battle 1v100 than run away.

Sir Dayne's "king" is dead....long live the king- who is Jon, who is the son of the last Dragon, Rhaegar. Plus the fact that Rhaegar and Dayne were best friends...and seemingly Jon is the last heir (male heir) of the Targs....This friendship combined with the theory R+L=J would actually make this seemingly possible. It is strange that no one is seen with Dawn since the Tower of Joy and while Ned I am sure, no matter how dangerous, would have return the actual sword, Dawn to Starfall....the fact that seems to be much much more going on between the Dayne's and Starks and Reeds...

sure what the hell, why not?

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First, I really like this theory. You actually built a case for it, and anticipated the most logical questions it would elicit, so I like the way you've gone about that too. I don't like the term "crackpot" to be applied to theories that are well supported by text and analysis, so I don't think this deserves that categorization.

The part that I remain unconvinced on is whether Arthur needs to be alive. I don't think this is a critical part of the H + A= M + J, which I think is the really valuable take-away from this. I won't categorically reject the possibility he's alive, but it might be straining a bit of credulity. It does not raise too many red flags for me that Ned delivered the sword in person; I'd gotten the sense that honor was a big part of both Dayne and Stark Houses, so death in honorable combat doesn't seem too unreasonable that Ned visited in person.

I think the bit about Barristan and mud is quite brilliant, btw.

Arthur doesn't need to be alive but it might speak to his friendship with Rhaegar and the fact that he is now one of the few to knowingly be protecting the heir to the kingdoms...and it could explain why and how Howland saved Ned....the one of the greatest knights and kingsguards actually so far has fulfilled his vows and the task he was set to....Howland didn't save Ned out of martial skill, perhaps it was because Howland, his "good" brother asked him not to...and say this was true, then neither Dayne nor Reed nor Stark would be at odds. Rhaegar sent Dayne to defend his son, which perhaps he did and is still doing? Maybe it explains why there would need to have been any fighting in the first place between the 3 kingsguard kept to guard Lyanna, assuming they are guarding his/her child. Surely Ned would not have wanted to harm Lyanna or the child would he?

Thats one part I don't understand. It makes Ned and Robert look good and makes a good story, but in the end, wouldn't the 3 KG and the 6 with Ned actually not have been at odds? With Ned willing to protect his blood, and his sister's child...the same sister, blood and child the 3 KG would left to protect???

But it does put an end to the rebellion and the remaining KG get their death's in the line of duty....so it does make sense in a way if Jon really is the true King...while Ser Selmy bent the knee to Robert, the greatest of the KG lived and succeeded...

The 3 KG plus Ned's 6 actually wanting the same thing and still fighting, the seemingly good vibes between Starks and Daynes, which wouldn't seem to actually exist, the disappearance of Dawn, and the fact that the Ashara jumped to her death out of grief.... (grief for whom? her brother, a lover lost?) Both Daynes being dead, and the remoteness of Greywater Watch seemingly a perfect place to house/hid 2 dead Daynes....its not as if anyone can just come up on it unannounced and demand to pop in. If there was ever a more perfect place to hide 2 people known dead to the world.

There is also a nagging about how when Meera tells Bran the story and both Reed's are quite shocked that Bran has never heard it before....and they seemingly don't believe him at first. Which makes sense, if the Reeds, living in an unfindable Castle/Keep/House having no need for secrecy where as Ned and those in Winterfell would....which would make sense, if this were true, why this isn't a common bed time story. Plus Ned living with his lies already bugs him...its not like he is going to tell his kids this story, he doesn't like thinking about the lies, let alone talking about them.

I have always suspected there was something funky about Ashara's death and I thought Lemore was a likely candidate, but I like this possibility better.

Plus, if it ever came to Jon or Dany claiming the throne, who would lend more credibility to the claim? The Sword of the Morning, having never once switched sides, but having always remained loyal to his "king" or the flip flopping Selmy? (I like the old man, but between Dayne and Selmy, I would think Selmy would be more inclined to bend the knee to Jon, with Dayne alive and at his side and having never forsaken his vows.

I like this theory, which probably means its never going to be.....

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I don't always read long topics... but this is amazing! its so believable! would love this to be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bravo


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I really want this theory to be true. Even if Arthur isn't alive(which I'm 99.99% sure he is dead) the rest of this theory is amazing and would be a great plot twist, the kind GRRM would pull.

On Arthur being alive, I think it would be pretty sweet. The other "Targ" claimants have someone who was close with Rhaegar (Dany has Barristan and fAegon has JonCon) I think it's perfectly reasonable for Jon to have someone, and Arthur is perfect for it. :commie: I really hope he is alive. :commie:

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I like your theory, although I don't think Arthur Dayne is in the Neck, being a member of the KG he would have been bound by his oath to stay with Jon at WF. I think Ned is sad when he mentions Dayne as he now knows that Dayne along with the other members of the KG were merely trying to protect Jon.

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The saddest possible thing about this is how would ser Arthur look today.

Instead of a shiny, young super knight we would get a middle aged man that has been living in a guilt of failing his best friend for 18 years while doing absolutely nothing but sitting on his ass in a swamp and possibly drowning himself in alcohol. That would be an ugly thing and exactly what GRRM would do with a situation like this.

I think this is not what Arthur Dayne would be; I feel that Arthur would not sink that low to the point that he ends up like another Robert Baratheon, only without the whoring aspect.

Or a man training his ass nostop for 18years, 40yo of pure skills. Ready complet his best friend's plan by guiding his last son throught his destiny. This is so unlike GRRM... why not!.

Arthur would definitely be training nonstop and travelling between Greywater Watch and Winterfell with the intent to help protect and conceal Jon Targaryen.

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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before or not (and I don't feel like scouring through 21 pages of replies), but there is a quote from Jon in ASoS (the chapter when he climbs the Wall with the wildlings), when he looks to the sky and said that he could



"See the Sword of the Morning to the south."



This, of course, was a reference to a name given to a collection of stars, but we're on a forum and need to find meaning everywhere in what people say. Maybe it's a tip of the hat to the OP's theory and Ser Arthur Dayne is still alive and hanging out with Howland Reed.


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Hey there with the deepest bow to the OP @maidenandwarrior for researching so well and starting this thread. I see I am late to the party, forgive me. Also forgive me for being ignorant of what's going on in the "Tower of Joy: Was there really a fight? http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/59279-tower-of-joy-was-there-really-a-fight/ which I haven't even started to read yet. My own nut-cracking efforts rather belong there, if I can make it later. I've read through all 417 posts ot this thread though.

I met the OP elsewhere when I made a statement similar that the Tower of Joy story is a house of cards, or lies, and only Howland Reed would be able to truly help there, and his heretic reply was along the lines of well, what if Arthur Dayne was still around and I answered: he would be with Howland Reed then, wouldn't it. Well I don't quite remember, it might have been quite different.

But my point is, Ser Arthur Dayne, given the quest to protect Rhaegar & Lyanna's child at the ToJ by Rhaegar has he rode off for the Trident (if he indeed went anywhere, excuse my doubts, they take me everywhere and eat up more than seven Kingdoms)...

Well given those were his vows and he had to meet two just so smart people als Howland and Ned Stark, what would be the course of the action?

Imagine:


Arthur: "I must protect your sister's baby child Ned, come any nearer and I kill you!".
Ned: "I'm not harming any baby child lest my sister's!".

Howland: "Arthur, this may seem tough, but Ned is Lyanna's brother after all, give them a chance to talk. I call an armistice here. We are all honorable men, allow us two to lay down our swords for a time, bury the dead, and take them up later at the same spot if we really must."

It should pretty soon dawn on Dayne that protecting Lyanna's son was just the thing Ned would want, so there would be no dishonor in continuing his service as a white sword until the end of days, with the plan of Ned's to foster Jon in Winterfell.

For the cover-up, Ned is to deliver the Sword back to the family at their place, Starfall, and maybe for some more news or an exchange of loyal wetnurses. Ashara Dayne may have had news of the plan and indeed headed towards GW. Or not. Doesn't matter too much to me, but I can lay out Arthur going north either with Howland or to rejoin him.

Alternatively, to join the Nights Watch, if the troubles and doubts with his vows and honour take over. Or not.
Or if news reaches him his prince has lost in single combat at the Trident, been secretly allowed to save his life if he takes the black by an incredibly smart Robert... and that may all be much very hard to imagine, but I tried. It is not the Robert we've met in ASOIAF, so no way.

Again with much love for the OP's full theory, I do not see the restless Dayne's spending all of 15 years in the bogs. They will have moved on. Maybe they stayed to see Meera and Jojen born and fostered for a while. Not that long though, it doesn't have the right feel -at least to me.

Thanks for reading all this rambling.

Perhaps Howland Reed had visions while on the Isle of Faces. It was these visions that saved Ned Stark's life because Howland explained to Arthur that in order for the heir to survive, Jon needed to go with Ned. Arthur, realizing the truth of Reed's words, either committed suicide or laid down his sword and let Ned kill him. My money is on the latter.

When Ned returned Dawn, it is stated in aGoT by Cat (so there may be some bias in this) that Ned returned Dawn specifically to Ashara. Perhaps, in the visions, Reed foresaw that Ashara needed to go replace Arthur as Jon's first kingsguard. This might help explain why Ashara faked her death and went to Greywater watch.

I like the idea about the visions. I like the plan to involve "another" Dayne, too. It may play well with his eyes on Ashara that night with the dancing, this has a good ring to it.
I cannot see Arthur Dayne dying for a cause that is actually already won.

That makes no sense to me. Of course he could have died from wounds taken earlier in the fight.

Also, Ned Stark did destroy the ToJ completely in order to bury the other people. Why should anyone, presumably heavily injured, stay there?

It is clear that we have not been explicitly said what happened to the other 8, but not always 8 graves and the implication that only 2 people lived to ride away is not enough to conclude some guys are really dead. Doubting it is just the same as proposing Ned Stark is still alive, IMHO.

Yes, yes, yes again. Very good questions, even the implicit one "what happened to the other 8".

I have got another one I'd love to add: Why was the tower broken down?

To be fair, one doesn't have to swallow all of this theory to see its merits. I think Dawn is definitely at Starfall and Arthur Dayne is definitely dead, but I'd be lying if I said that the basic idea of Ashara marrying Howland wasn't a thousand times more fascinating and compelling than her jumping off a tower or being *gag* Septa Lemore.

I believe the point has to do with her motives in doing so, i.e. what she knows.

...or what drives her, what is it she wants.

I love the theory because it is so well thought of. I don't need to take it as proven either to allow me dreams or speculations. I also think Dawn is at Starfall and is a non-magical piece of steel that will never be in the hands of a superhero formerly known as Jon Snow. I am very very afraid that Arthur is probably dead now, but it should not have happened at the ToJ if that could have been amended. I don't buy Lady Lemore either, whoever she'll turn out to be. My proof is: Her eyes aren't mentioned and Tyrion is a keen observer. People noticed Ashara's eyes, we learn (thanks @maidenandwarrior).

But we can agree on one thing: I don't think Ashara Dayne is dead.

Hmm, there is this saying that if everyone is talking about her, she ain't dead.

Rhaegar and Dayne were best friends...and seemingly Jon is the last heir (male heir) of the Targs.

This is spot on, Arthur might be able to tell us more about the prophesy that drove Rhaegar into doing seemingly mindless doings.
And maybe he did?

I don't really want to know if Jon is actually that last male heir or if it is (f)Aegon who might have or not have been at the ToJ with Lyanna (for whatever reason, I am wildly speculating, but if Aegon survived, why not in the exact same manner and the same place as Jon? Makes much more sense to me than Varys' last minute baby-swap. Makes even sense if it happened in the aftermath and cover-up of Varys' baby-swap).
Ashara liked to travel, she might have been there to visit the KG+heirs madness?
No hints whatsoever towards any of what's in this paragraph, no need to complain, these are some thoughts that run along with the asking.

Jyana sounds like Lyanna. Ashara could have taken the name in rememberance of Lyanna. Maybe Lyanna is Jyana. IDK

Right. Howard had Meera by Ashara and Jojen by JLyanna. Just a possibility and I will need to go into hiding myself for thinking out loud. Maybe Howard's promised bride was a Jyana from the Crannogs and it is a red herring. We don't know.

a quote from Jon in ASoS (the chapter when he climbs the Wall with the wildlings), when he looks to the sky and said that he could

"See the Sword of the Morning to the south."

This, of course, was a reference to a name given to a collection of stars, but we're on a forum and need to find meaning everywhere in what people say. Maybe it's a tip of the hat to the OP's theory and Ser Arthur Dayne is still alive and hanging out with Howland Reed.

Or for Dawn to be at Starfall after GRRM wanted fewer questions on that matter by his fans in interviews. But yes, your suggestion feels much better than mine, if I am allowed to add that "the south" (without capital -S-) as seen from the wall can be translated to practically "anywhere" or all the world or all The Realms of Men. Big place.

While Arthur Dayne may be anyone anywhere and dead-or-alive, I take it Howland will indeed be a very busy man around the North at the moment.

Long talk no sense, Ashara and Howland makes Meera Reed, thanks to the OP is a very rich idea and I like it a lot. I am doubtful as anyone can be and cannot help it, but who would be her child in the year after the Robellion, if it lived and isn't Meera? I cannot say it any better.

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