Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

maidenandwarrior

Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen?

418 posts in this topic

I find it really interesting, the theory about: "I would be dead if it wasnt for Howland" We all assumed he did some magical trick or some guerrilla attack but He could have just showed up in front of Arthur when he is about to kill Ned:" I am your brother in law and Ashara and I will be parent, plz we are family, let us pass" and the later tricky part: "They found <Ned>" is brillant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it really interesting, the theory about: "I would be dead if it wasnt for Howland" We all assumed he did some magical trick or some guerrilla attack but He could have just showed up in front of Arthur when he is about to kill Ned:" I am your brother in law and Ashara and I will be parent, plz we are family, let us pass" and the later tricky part: "They found <Ned>" is brillant.

The R+L=J brigade has pointed out, for years, that Howland could have found Ned with Wylla or another servant to form the "they" in this equation.

Like I said, I really do like this theory, but I think the Arthur angle should be dropped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The R+L=J brigade has pointed out, for years, that Howland could have found Ned with Wylla or another servant to form the "they" in this equation.

Like I said, I really do like this theory, but I think the Arthur angle should be dropped.

Do not destroy my fantasy please. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting :) At first I was all....umm...what??? Then as I was reading I thought.....ya know....this is a very cool idea :) Thanks for posting it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon turns 15 on his way to the wall in GOT. There is alot of time that passes before Meera shows up in ACOK. Robb is conceived before the Battle of the Bells as Ned had to marry Cat to ensure Tully support and then marches off to war the next day with Cats dad to rescue Robert. Howland is most likely at the wedding as he fought with Ned during the war. So its safe to assume he had sex with his wife before he left for war, whether at the wedding or back at the Neck. Therefore I think all three are fairly close in age, under six months at least.

Jon turns fifteen at the Wall, and again, we don't really know the age gap between him and Robb, or when Jon was conceived.

Ned and Cat marry after the Battle of the Bells, not before. They agree to wed before, Hoster marches off with Ned and Jon, and then afterwards there is a double wedding.

Lysa's match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother's son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King's Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue...a young wife known to be fertile. (ASOS 39)

She and her sister had married on the same day. (ASOS 38)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The R+L=J brigade has pointed out, for years, that Howland could have found Ned with Wylla or another servant to form the "they" in this equation.

Like I said, I really do like this theory, but I think the Arthur angle should be dropped.

I'm leaving it up for now, simply because I still am not convinced it is impossible. And while it could be a theory all its own, it is really wed to this one. There are specific circumstances, and specific circumstances only, where him still being alive is possible. I am just not convinced either way at this point.

About the R+L=J and Wylla, yes I see how this is possible. But again, we just don't know either way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's an intriguing theory and it's a relatively new one (something that's becoming rarer and rarer to find).

One thing that always bugged me was what exactly did Howland Reed do to save Ned from Arthur Dane? I find it hard to believe that Howland threw a net around Arthur while Ned hacked him apart with Ice. Something interesting transpired between those two characters.

Now the main question I have is why would Ashara have to fake her death and hide her identity after she left with and married Howland? Was she trying to protect her family name because she married a lowly crannogman, even if he is a lord? That doesn't really sit right with me.

My other issue, I have is that the imagery of falling from a tower, even on a reread seems to me more attributable to Howland making Bran confront the reality of what happened to cause him to fall. I think this was a necessary step in making Bran's third eye open. If Ashara faked her death to run off with Howland, the falling from a tower would have even less symbolism for her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's an intriguing theory and it's a relatively new one (something that's becoming rarer and rarer to find).

One thing that always bugged me was what exactly did Howland Reed do to save Ned from Arthur Dane? I find it hard to believe that Howland threw a net around Arthur while Ned hacked him apart with Ice. Something interesting transpired between those two characters.

Now the main question I have is why would Ashara have to fake her death and hide her identity after she left with and married Howland? Was she trying to protect her family name because she married a lowly crannogman, even if he is a lord? That doesn't really sit right with me.

My other issue, I have is that the imagery of falling from a tower, even on a reread seems to me more attributable to Howland making Bran confront the reality of what happened to cause him to fall. I think this was a necessary step in making Bran's third eye open. If Ashara faked her death to run off with Howland, the falling from a tower would have even less symbolism for her.

I agree with everything you say. It seems Ned is more amiss about Howland "saving" him... I'm not sure why, but something about his thoughts on that whole situation seemed more emotional when reading it.

I believe Ashara faked her death, ultimately like OP said, because of Jon. (Also, conveniently she was also able to go with Howland and Meera to live peacefully. The Dayne family was Targ loyalists as well so perhaps it was self sacrificing, making sure the safety of Rhaegar's last child. And another take, contradictory to OP, perhaps Ashara wanted to make sure her brother didn't die in vain- so she "died" to continue to protect the rightful King.) If Jon's assumed mother killed herself, who is going to ask questions, that's the way I look at it. When Catelyn asked Ned he became infuriated - which from Catelyns perspective wouldn't be out of place being that Jon's supposed mother killed her self, it makes it a sort of sore spot. All he easier to conceal the R+L=J truth. Nobody asks, nobody talks, no one else will know.

The falling/ tower is something I have to read over to see the connection.

Again I really enjoy this theory, at least someone had a semi happy ending...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I havent read through all the comments so I dont know if this hasnt already been said but maybe Ashara 'looked to Stark' because she wanted to marry Howland butnwas forbidden and she was hoping that the Starks could convince her parents or whatever to allow her to. And Barristan, not knowing the full story misinterpreted it?

I do think that Arthur is dead, but that doesnt mean the rest of it cant be true. This is my new favourite theory! I especially like the part about Barristan saying girls dont like mud men! thats a great spot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with everything you say. It seems Ned is more amiss about Howland "saving" him... I'm not sure why, but something about his thoughts on that whole situation seemed more emotional when reading it.

I believe Ashara faked her death, ultimately like OP said, because of Jon. Conviently she was also able to go with Howland.

The falling/ tower is something I have to read over to see the connection.

Again I really enjoy this theory, at least someone had a semi happy ending...

I must not have read the OP's stuff he put in his spoiler section, I missed his explanation for lying about Ashara's identity. So according to the OP, Ashara hid her identity to protect Jon so no one would know that she and her brother Arthur are hiding in Greywater Watch where they would be close enough for Arthur to ride to Jon's rescue at Winterfell? The OP kind of lost me there.

I still don't see why this necessitates Ashara in faking her death and coming up with a new identity. Isn't it enough that Arthur Dane who everyone thinks is dead, come up with a new identity as he hides out in the swamp? I guess it could be possible, it just doesn't seem extremely likely.

Now having said that, I do believe that there may be a connection between the Daynes and Howland Reed. Something happened between Arthur Dayne and Howland Reed at the Tower of Joy, and I don't think it was something as base as Howland poisoning Arthur or using his water magic to drown him or some other such nonsense.

I would also add that I did think it was interesting that Bran and the Reeds hid out at a tower that Bran nicknamed Tumbledown tower. That made me pause a bit. (Even though that still could be a sly reference to Bran's own fall down a tower).

I'd like to buy into this theory but I guess I'm still hung up on why Ashara had to fake her death and change her identity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must not have read the OP's stuff he put in his spoiler section, I missed his explanation for lying about Ashara's identity. So according to the OP, Ashara hid her identity to protect Jon so no one would know that she and her brother Arthur are hiding in Greywater Watch where they would be close enough for Arthur to ride to Jon's rescue at Winterfell? The OP kind of lost me there.

I still don't see why this necessitates Ashara in faking her death and coming up with a new identity. Isn't it enough that Arthur Dane who everyone thinks is dead, come up with a new identity as he hides out in the swamp? I guess it could be possible, it just doesn't seem extremely likely.

Now having said that, I do believe that there may be a connection between the Daynes and Howland Reed. Something happened between Arthur Dayne and Howland Reed at the Tower of Joy, and I don't think it was something as base as Howland poisoning Arthur or using his water magic to drown him or some other such nonsense.

I'd like to buy into this theory but I guess I'm still hung up on why Ashara had to fake her death and change her identity.

I'm sorry I edited my last post but basically what I took from Op is that she faked her death for Jon. I don't believe he made a statement why but I think she did it, contradictory to op, that "Arthur died for Jon so why can't I." Because, at this point she already had Meera and from what we know, no one knew the father so that made it even easier. Jon is safe and Ashara has her new baby and husband.

I read it before op edited o I don't know what he has in there now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry I edited my last post but basically what I took from Op is that she faked her death for Jon. I don't believe he made a statement why but I think she did it, contradictory to op, that "Arthur died for Jon so why can't I." Because, at this point she already had Meera and from what we know, no one knew the father so that made it even easier. Jon is safe and Ashara has her new baby and husband.

I read it before op edited o I don't know what he has in there now.

But it begs the question, how does Ashara changing her identity protect Jon?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to you now I have to reread all Bran's chapters, damn... :)

Great theory, really interesting take: I could have never guessed it in a thousand years, and while I'm not entirely sold it's a solid reasoning.

I'd like to comment on some sweet pick-ups of yours but I'd rather read the extracts beforehand.

Up until now I have two doubts, I'll post them here and then eventually come back in a few days to see if the text supports me or not.

But if you can solve them before hand, you are welcome ^^

1 Ashara is one of Ned's mistifications about Jon's true heritage, but unlike lowborns who are not easily traceable (nor reliable sources, also) she is a well-known figure.

Wouldn't it be better for Ned if she was really dead?

I mean: Ned doesn't want the truth to be found, so it makes sense that he chooses other girls instead of Lyanna.

Why Ashara Dayne, who is well-known and most importantly a trustworthy speaker from a noble house? Unless she is dead, the moment she speaks Jon is in danger!

One may argue that it's not Ned the one who started speaking about Ashara... but generally if voices arise there's a base of truth. Without considering Barristan the Biased, I'd say that if people keep talking about Ashara and a Stark it would make more sense that she was in love with Brandon...

Plus, if Reed killed her brother or at least contributed to her brother's death I don't see why she would happily follow him (is it another reason you believe Arthur to be alive?)

2 Arthur Dayne: whenever Ned recalls Dayne, he is overcome with grief and pain.

Arthur's defining line is "we all made vows", he's the personification of loyalty even to death.

On the other hand, Ned would be dead if it wasn't for Howland Reed: does it mean that he killed Arthur, or that he stopped him...let's say, by speaking of Ashara?

It does not convince me, someone who served Aerys and Rhaegar for many years and actually killed (or contribute to kill) everyone but Ned and Reed wouldn't probably stop abruptly.

Yet, all the series constantly reminds us that whenever someone has to choose between duty and his beloved ones, soon or late he always choose the second. Stannis, Jon, even Aemon at the end of his life. Could it be for Arthur as well?

I don't think that there's enough textual evidence about Arthur Dayne being alive.

Ashara Dayne is a tragic figure: whenever people speak about her, the suicide is involved.

In AGoT, after Ned's death, Sansa considers jumping out of the tower and have a "song-like" suicide.

Wouldn't be sweetly ironic that one of Sansa's songs was actually another lie, since no suicide actually happened?

...that would mean the only person to fall out from a tower due to "love" would be Lysa... :devil:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But it begs the question, how does Ashara changing her identity protect Jon?

This is my own theory:

She protects Jon by changing her identity thus Ashara Dayne is "dead". Seeing how most people ASSUME that Ashara is his mother -we see it when Catelyn recalls asking Ned about Ashara or the confrontation between Ned and Cersei. So with that assumption - faking her death by suicide and changing her identity its easier to conceal the truth of R+L=J when no one will ask questions. Throughout the series I can only recall three or four times when Jon's parentage is discussed between Ned and another, if that.

So in theory: Ashara faked her death because a) Dayne's were Targ loyalists, to protect Jon, the rightful Targ King, and take the assumed mother postition, or B) to honor her, dead, brother's wish of protecting the rightful Targ King, and his best friend's only remaining son.

At this point she already had her daughter, with Howland - Meera, so people can credit her 9 mo pregnancy - but since no one knew who the father was (Howland) it was easy to lie, say it Eddard Stark. Eddard never dismisses this notion nor does he allow people to speak of it. Like I said before, not only is no one going to question the honorable Eddard Stark about his bastard but they aren't going to question him if they assume Ashara is the mother and she killed herself. It's just rude.

The only person who Ned openly tells is Robert and he says it "Wylla and I rather not speak of her", robert says something along the lines of "I'd like to know who would make the honorable Ned Stark forget his vows" (paraphrasing). -- Leads me to believe that, perhaps because Rob B was at ToH, maybe he was like "Go get it Howland" *arm nudge, arm nudge* :wub: with Ashara and so if Ned named Ashara, Robert would ask more questions. Thats the only thing that would be questionable with this whole theory because if Rob B knew Howland had a thing for Ashara, who else knew? Is it something forgetable - certainly unimportant to Rob B after the fact, all things considered. Obviously no one speaks of her and only Barristan thinks about her...

Whether any of this is true or not is beyond me but I find myself more and more intrigued by H+A=M+JJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But it begs the question, how does Ashara changing her identity protect Jon?

From what I gather Ashara was a beneficial "gossip" candidate for Jon's mother. Though she had dark hair, the Daynes generally have the slivery hair/ purple eyes combo of the Targs. I thought having her be one of the "candidates" was part of the cover-up in case Jon expressed Targ traits. Going into hiding would help ensure that the truth of that didn't come out, as well as eliminate the possibility she would be publicly disgraced by those rumours (potentially).

One part of this theory that I'm now wondering about is the implications for "Sword of the Morning" (outside of the Arthur possibility). I've held the belief that Dawn is the "dragonsteel" sword the Annals mention the Last Hero used. I've adjacently thought that "Sword of the Morning" is a title of office for those who are worthy of guarding the sword (not that the sword is itself a reward) in the event of another Long Night. I'm not suggesting that Dawn is at Greywater or anything like that. But given the position of Jojen and Meera North of the Wall, if Dawn is in fact part of their heritage (and if Dawn is actually dragonsteel), I think this could help the missing pieces fall into place-- the knowledge of dragonsteel could come from them, who happen to be in fairly close proximity to the 2 main contenders for "Last Hero," one of whom is able to wield a sword. Just a small thought that could connect Dawn/ Daynes to the North at present, making that sword more relevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its an interesting OP and theory with regards to Ashara. Personally I don't its possible that she would be the mother of Meera and Jojen though. Both of them are described as smaller in stature, Meera being three years older than Jojen yet not very much taller, if at all. I would think that if Howland and Ashara had kids, they would have some of her genes and those kids would stand out with regards to other crannograms in appearance. Maybe taller than your average crannogram for a start.

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read the whole thing and it is a very well formed argument. I have subscribed to theories with much less compelling evidence. Great post, we need more like you around here. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its an interesting OP and theory with regards to Ashara. Personally I don't its possible that she would be the mother of Meera and Jojen though. Both of them are described as smaller in stature, Meera being three years older than Jojen yet not very much taller, if at all. I would think that if Howland and Ashara had kids, they would have some of her genes and those kids would stand out with regards to other crannograms in appearance. Maybe taller than your average crannogram for a start.

So, by your logic, Jon can't be Rhaegar's child. There's also something interesting Op mentions about the eyes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.