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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion


Ran
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The RW depiction was really good overall! While i could nitpick if i wanted to, i guess i'm just happy it wasn't really bad.

Did anyone catch the look Roose gave Robb and Talisa at the time when Edmure and Roslin were reciting their oaths to the Seven? I loved the look he had!

And as a side note, Walder Frey on the TV show, as near to perfection as humanly possible. Brilliant.

Very few people seem to be bothered with the other scenes in this episode. Like the whole Jon-Bran-Summer scene at Queenscrown. In the books that scene was quite bloody brilliant. But it was really underplayed on the show. Maybe its almost impossible to get the Direwolves on the show to behave like they do in the books, and while i can grant some leeway for that, but i've seen numerous movies and TV shows with better animal actors, and i'm sure they could do better!

Osha is finally going away. Phew.

I love the looks Dany and Daario keep giving each other. There seems to be some real good chemistry there already! Although i'm still wondering how Dany would discover Jorah's betrayal!

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The RW depiction was really good overall! While i could nitpick if i wanted to, i guess i'm just happy it wasn't really bad.

Did anyone catch the look Roose gave Robb and Talisa at the time when Edmure and Roslin were reciting their oaths to the Seven? I loved the look he had!

And as a side note, Walder Frey on the TV show, as near to perfection as humanly possible. Brilliant.

Very few people seem to be bothered with the other scenes in this episode. Like the whole Jon-Bran-Summer scene at Queenscrown. In the books that scene was quite bloody brilliant. But it was really underplayed on the show. Maybe its almost impossible to get the Direwolves on the show to behave like they do in the books, and while i can grant some leeway for that, but i've seen numerous movies and TV shows with better animal actors, and i'm sure they could do better!

Osha is finally going away. Phew.

I love the looks Dany and Daario keep giving each other. There seems to be some real good chemistry there already! Although i'm still wondering how Dany would discover Jorah's betrayal!

I'm just happy that the writers remembered that Robb had a wolf named Grey Wind; considering that Robb apparently had no bannermen tough enough to even try to save him (and that we haven't seen Grey Wind since last season if I remember right). Actually, I thought Grey Wind out-acted Richard Madden when one compares their death scenes.

TV-Walder was excellently cast and acted. I will never be able to rewatch the Harry Potter movies again without booing whenever Filch appears. (kept looking for Filch's cat to pop up in Walder's lap or at his feet)

Overall, one of the better episodes this season. I was glad to see Jon finally ditch the Wildlings; especially Ygritte, who bored me in the books and also on TV; and very glad to see him kill Orell. I liked the Osha/Bran interaction and Yay, Rickon speaks! Fun times in Yunkai; liked the Jorah/Daario rivalry; poor Jorah is desperately trying to impress Dany (hey, we captured the city!) but she only has eyes for Daario...

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One of the more baffling aspects of Western culture tbh. I wouldn't have minded him getting an axe to the head. Honestly, considering that a pregnant woman just got stabbed in the fucking stomach I'd be really disturbed if that was their main motivation for not showing it.

......

:agree:

And I admit that all those people writing that the saddest moment was the death of Grey Wind - sorry but he is an animal, just or nearly just like the pigs and lambs they had for dinner and who cried for those!

No, Talisa getting stabbed into her pregnant belly and first of all the INCREDIBLE scenes with Fairley's Cat, that hit me. And I think that Arya was so shocked By Grey Wind being killed because she knew what this meant for Robb.

Edited by Woman of War
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Loved the episode. My only nitpicks regard the dramatization of Queenscrown. The problem with adapting any beloved literature to screen is that everyone has a different imagination and therefore no adaptation will play exactly the same on screen as it does in every reader's mind. The duty ot the viewer is to trust the adaptation as the way that the story played out in the mind of the screenwriter, and as the result of inevitable compromises related to the director's vision, the cinematographer's camera, the actors' portrayals, and the limits imposed on the whole affair by budgets, weather, and the like. I really appreciate what the whole production is doing with the story and understand that their vision is different than mine.

That said, my nitpick about Queenscrown is that I wish the tower had been bigger and had been located in a lake with a submerged causeway leading to it. The tower used in the episode looked a lot like the windmill the wildlings encountered earlier in the season. I pictured something like these watchtowers near the cliffs of Mohr in Ireland, but on a small island in a small lake.

http://4.bp.blogspot...iffs.Castle.jpg

Clouds overhead. The whole scene could have been moodier and more tense than it was.

Again, just a nitpick. Location scouts aren't omnipotent (perhaps such a location just wasn't available), and overall they've done spendidly. This was the best episode of television I think I've ever seen.

Edited by Charles Kuntz
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Great episode, really epic.

But I can't help but think its all downhill from here. Sure we have a few good episodes lined up for next season but it feels like the RW was the pinnacle. Endless traveling, weird kraken uncles, pig jousting, ninja training, tree dude and naive princes, nothing with the gravitas of the events of this episode. I'm having post RW let down.

t

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Michelle Fairley in an interview

At what point did you learn Catelyn’s fate?

I read the series so I knew what was coming and I also knew how many years I signed for.

Looks like she doesn't have a contract to play Lady Stonehart.

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I am all for criticism. The RW was the most powerful moment I have ever read. But you just sounded like the most uptight, cynical, closed-minded, arrogant & outright most irritating person I have ever had to read a comment from. Damn man stop nitpicking every single aspect of the show. THE WIND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BLOWING WEST!!!! HER HAIR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CURLY NOT STRAIGHT!!!! THE WEDDING SONG WAS IN A HIGHER KEY THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE!!!! This isn't the books!!! I appreciate some of the complaints, the lack of bannermen mainly. And the lack of Grey Wind action.

1) I agree I would've liked to see GreyWind attack Freys at the beginning.... but that would've made it way too obvious something was going to happen. They did show GW howling in despair later.

3) The big connection was between Robb & Catelyn. The warging capability between Robb & GreyWind was never really addressed so it would've been pretty random to see Robb all of a sudden warging out of his body into GW. And btw saying that GW's death was something barely cared for... yeah you are heartless. Who feels for a creature trying to break free & save his master getting shot multiple times defenselessly? With Arya to sit there & witness it?

5) Robb showed no confusion or despair? The entire time he was speechless, lost in the chaos... Yeah I know he wasn't frantic but he was completely dead inside & in shock. Why the hell else do you think he slowly rose and barely moved?

As for Catelyn's death..... she doesn't say anything about the hair.... she THINKS it.... can you please try to comprehend the difference between a book where thoughts are seen textually.... and a TV show where that does not happen. The reason why so many non-book readers were so moved is because it was a MOVING EPISODE!! They aren't all uptight and stuck up with only ONE thought on what the episode would be like, bitching about any little thing different. This episode was phenomenal. I read the books multiple times.. and I have the ability to watch something on screen and comprehend it is a different entity than the source material it came from. I appreciated the similarities... loved the entirety of the episode.... and respected the changes as this is an ADAPTATION. Stop being so cynical and start treating this like a series that is, for all intents and purposes, a gift. Stop going into an episode expecting A, B, C, D then E to happen & just let the episode happen as it is. People like you are the reason this show could fail: you are so difficult to be pleased and refuse to just enjoy the damn show. You have to bash every little thing that is different to you. Pretend you never read the books.... I bet you wont be so critical.

Sorry if that came off rude. But dear god I am so sick of seeing overwhelmingly insulting comments that are so clearly exaggerated. Sure there were disappointments... but to use horrible... and other phrases implying this was the worst episode of the series is flat out ridiculous. I don't know what shows/episodes you have been watching but you are out of your mind. The simple fact that you said GW being killed meant nothing to you just shows how up in the clouds on your throne ruling book Westeros you are... I don't care how it happened in the books... seeing GW trying to break free, right after seeing Robb is at his final moments, all while Arya is so close to reuniting with her family & almost close enough to get to GW.... thats compelling and absolutely painful. Block out ASOIAF, and step into the world of Game Of Thrones... both are amazing.... but they are two separate things. The show will never be the books... its physically impossible. But they've done a damn good job of an adaptation.

This says everything I need to say.
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I am all for criticism. The RW was the most powerful moment I have ever read. But you just sounded like the most uptight, cynical, closed-minded, arrogant & outright most irritating person I have ever had to read a comment from. Damn man stop nitpicking every single aspect of the show. THE WIND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BLOWING WEST!!!! HER HAIR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CURLY NOT STRAIGHT!!!! THE WEDDING SONG WAS IN A HIGHER KEY THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE!!!! This isn't the books!!! I appreciate some of the complaints, the lack of bannermen mainly. And the lack of Grey Wind action.

1) I agree I would've liked to see GreyWind attack Freys at the beginning.... but that would've made it way too obvious something was going to happen. They did show GW howling in despair later.

3) The big connection was between Robb & Catelyn. The warging capability between Robb & GreyWind was never really addressed so it would've been pretty random to see Robb all of a sudden warging out of his body into GW. And btw saying that GW's death was something barely cared for... yeah you are heartless. Who feels for a creature trying to break free & save his master getting shot multiple times defenselessly? With Arya to sit there & witness it?

5) Robb showed no confusion or despair? The entire time he was speechless, lost in the chaos... Yeah I know he wasn't frantic but he was completely dead inside & in shock. Why the hell else do you think he slowly rose and barely moved?

As for Catelyn's death..... she doesn't say anything about the hair.... she THINKS it.... can you please try to comprehend the difference between a book where thoughts are seen textually.... and a TV show where that does not happen. The reason why so many non-book readers were so moved is because it was a MOVING EPISODE!! They aren't all uptight and stuck up with only ONE thought on what the episode would be like, bitching about any little thing different. This episode was phenomenal. I read the books multiple times.. and I have the ability to watch something on screen and comprehend it is a different entity than the source material it came from. I appreciated the similarities... loved the entirety of the episode.... and respected the changes as this is an ADAPTATION. Stop being so cynical and start treating this like a series that is, for all intents and purposes, a gift. Stop going into an episode expecting A, B, C, D then E to happen & just let the episode happen as it is. People like you are the reason this show could fail: you are so difficult to be pleased and refuse to just enjoy the damn show. You have to bash every little thing that is different to you. Pretend you never read the books.... I bet you wont be so critical.

Sorry if that came off rude. But dear god I am so sick of seeing overwhelmingly insulting comments that are so clearly exaggerated. Sure there were disappointments... but to use horrible... and other phrases implying this was the worst episode of the series is flat out ridiculous. I don't know what shows/episodes you have been watching but you are out of your mind. The simple fact that you said GW being killed meant nothing to you just shows how up in the clouds on your throne ruling book Westeros you are... I don't care how it happened in the books... seeing GW trying to break free, right after seeing Robb is at his final moments, all while Arya is so close to reuniting with her family & almost close enough to get to GW.... thats compelling and absolutely painful. Block out ASOIAF, and step into the world of Game Of Thrones... both are amazing.... but they are two separate things. The show will never be the books... its physically impossible. But they've done a damn good job of an adaptation.

:agree:

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I've waited for this episode and it was well done. The ending brought tears in my eyes though I knew what was gonna happen. The way how Freys killed Talisa added even more tragedy to this massacre.

Though it's so sad and disturbing to watch Starks die, the revenge will come, I believe it. The North remembers.

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1) I agree I would've liked to see GreyWind attack Freys at the beginning.... but that would've made it way too obvious something was going to happen. They did show GW howling in despair later.

3) The big connection was between Robb & Catelyn. The warging capability between Robb & GreyWind was never really addressed so it would've been pretty random to see Robb all of a sudden warging out of his body into GW. And btw saying that GW's death was something barely cared for... yeah you are heartless. Who feels for a creature trying to break free & save his master getting shot multiple times defenselessly? With Arya to sit there & witness it?

Poor GreyWind was a bit short changed, in the book he goes out fighting, tearing out Frey throats and taking names, like Dany's black dragon Drogon he is meant to be the biggest and most badass of the Direwolves, he's the Alpha. Was very sad when he died.

He was basically murdered in a pen. At least if he fights he goes out the warrior he is.

You don't need to show him being killed, just have Arya let him out (someone does in the books because the Freys won't let him in the castle) he kills some Freys, some crossbow guys run up and fire and you hear a yelp off screen and maybe him starring at Arya like in the show. It was probably more of a budget thing and that wolves are difficult to film.

I thought afterwards, and this will be a little controversial because it isn't in the books but it would have been great that in their dying states Robb and Greywind made a real connection. As dying Greywind was starring at Arya it cuts to Robb inside and he says to himself "Arya" but kinda not understand why. That would have been pretty powerful and related directly to what Jojen says to Bran earlier in the ep that warging "is in his blood"...

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I know people have mentioned this, but I don't get the completely arbitrary change of the musicians being good.

It wasn't an arbitrary change. They made the episode so it wasn't obvious that something is wrong which means that they remove the tip of that the musicians are bad, among some other things. I guess it also plays in with the medium since we actually have to listen to the band for quite some time during the show.

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I guess it also plays in with the medium since we actually have to listen to the band for quite some time during the show.

This is the main reason. An off-key band is very likely just going to sound amusing if we actually hear it. That would have killed the tension.

I don't think 'didn't want to give away something was wrong' was part of it - that it was The Rains of Castamere and Cat's expression told that story plenty.

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This is the main reason. An off-key band is very likely just going to sound amusing if we actually hear it. That would have killed the tension.

I don't think 'didn't want to give away something was wrong' was part of it - that it was The Rains of Castamere and Cat's expression told that story plenty.

The part of giving it away that something is wrong is far before they start playing The Rains. When they play that song it's irrelevant if they play badly as the song is an intended giveaway from the Freys. I'm referring to having the band play poorly during the entire feast, which is what Cat notes in the book.

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Posted this somewhere else but just wanted to repeat it here, without going to the effort of writing it out again. I'm lazy.

The most heartbreaking part of the episode was the silent moment between Robb and Cat, that could have lasted a lifetime in their minds, as he mumbles "mother", he became her little boy again, his manly leader facade had fallen away, and we saw how young he really was, right up until Roose stabbed him.

Edited by Cellio
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