[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

[silentwanderer]

I am not a fan of the undead angle (because it makes death less significant), but I agree that LS will show up in the finale.

You have to give the fans something positive after the Red Wedding trauma.

To me, positive would be a pre bear pit Jaime and Brienne scene.

The undead angle strikes me as gritty and necessary more than anything else.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Well there are decent moral beings in the series. I think just because she's not horrible like most other characters go doesn't mean she's much more than a 'pretty' face.

It's not because she's just "not horrible". How many other noble-born characters do we see who deliberately give up their wealth and privilege to serve the less fortunate, without any expectation of fame or glory, and without being on the run from some worse fate? Like her or not (and I personally found her annoying and not all that attractive), her story is very unusual, and as I said, hits Robb right in his idealistic sweet-spot.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Former Lord of Winterfell

[Winter In My Heart]

Well hey like I said if you don't like it, that's cool. I really don't care.

It's the "it's objectively bad and horrible and the worst thing ever and if you don't think so you are dumb and don't appreciate the finer things in life" I have a problem with. As I've said again and again here.

I don't think anyone is dumb just because they like it. I just don't see how people can like a bland, modern outlook in a not modern setting and cliche, character who's rather boring to watch on screen. Maybe a different actress with more charisma might have helped me like the change more I don't know.

But when people go spewing that I or others hate it just because its a change, that's as insulting as you saying people call the lovers dumb. And I don't find Jeyne being non existent a excuse at all since they very well could have fleshed her out just as much as Talisa. They just choose not to.

I just personally think since I do know so many who hate her and Robb together and see very few who do, the writers screwed up since it should be an all around likable character and a love story they want to get behind.

[Winter In My Heart]

It's not because she's just "not horrible". How many other noble-born characters do we see who deliberately give up their wealth and privilege to serve the less fortunate, without any expectation of fame or glory, and without being on the run from some worse fate? Like her or not (and I personally found her annoying and not all that attractive), her story is very unusual, and as I said, hits Robb right in his idealistic sweet-spot.

All I'm saying is there's not a whole lot more to her than a 'pretty' face. I wasn't trying to insinuate anything else in my responses to you.

[Oakenfist]

Clearly Talisa wasn't a badly written character if you watch a show watcher only reaction to the Red Wedding.

In before some book purist tells me his show watcher only friend hates Talisa to validate his point.

[Winter In My Heart]

Clearly Talisa wasn't a badly written character if you watch a show watcher only reaction to the Red Wedding.

In before some book purist tells me his show watcher only friend hates Talisa to validate his point.

Um obviously people are going to react to a pregnant woman stabbed. That doesn't mean they loved or liked her. Just that the death was a horrible way to go....

[Khal Porno]

I don't think anyone is dumb just because they like it. I just don't see how people can like a bland, modern outlook in a not modern setting and cliche, character who's rather boring to watch on screen. Maybe a different actress with more charisma might have helped me like the change more I don't know.

But when people go spewing that I or others hate it just because its a change, that's as insulting as you saying people call the lovers dumb. And I don't find Jeyne being non existent a excuse at all since they very well could have fleshed her out just as much as Talisa. They just choose not to.

I just personally think since I do know so many who hate her and Robb together and see very few who do, the writers screwed up since it should be an all around likable character and a love story they want to get behind.

If you say something is "horribly written" you are saying people who liked it and don't think it's horribly written are too dumb to recognize bad writing.

OK maybe you didn't dislike her just because it was a change (although with many others here that is clearly the issue), but it's still a matter of personal taste. You said you don't like her because she's "too modern" and you found her "boring" and didn't "get behind her love story." OK. I didn't feel that way at all.

And regarding the "modern" thing - that's ridiculous because we are talking about a FANTASY story, in which there are already many characters who have characteristics that are more in line with modern perspectives than they are with "medievalish" perspectives, but they are generally mixes. Talisa was a mix as well - just because they emphasized her idealism doesn't make her "too modern."

[Oakenfist]

Um obviously people are going to react to a pregnant woman stabbed. That doesn't mean they loved or liked her. Just that the death was a horrible way to go....

In the "nitpick thread" you have people celebrating when Talisa was stabbed violently. That's book purists for you, so no I disagree completely with you.

[Winter In My Heart]

If you say something is "horribly written" you are saying people who liked it and don't think it's horribly written are too dumb to recognize bad writing.

No that's not what I personally mean in saying that though like I said I don't see how someone can like it. If you (in general not specifically you) want a cliche love story then Got really shouldn't be the the series to watch or read.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Winter In My Heart

[Winter In My Heart]

In the "nitpick thread" you have people celebrating when Talisa was stabbed violently. That's book purists for you, so no I disagree completely with you.

I'm talking about unsullied. Not book readers who hated her. I hated her and am glad she's gone but I didn't 'celebrate'.

Eta; And just because they're glad doesn't automatically mean book purism. That's assuming to much from someone that just hated a character.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Winter In My Heart

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

All I'm saying is there's not a whole lot more to her than a 'pretty' face. I wasn't trying to insinuate anything else in my responses to you.

And my point is her pretty face wasn't the reason he fell for her. He fell for her, very clearly, right when she told him about her past.

Part of the problem here is that Robb is so much older than in the books. It's easier to imagine a 15-16 guy falling hard for a girl based on what we were given than it is a guy who appears to be more than 10 years older. And that really applies both to book Robb and show Robb. No matter how they did it, it wasn't going to make much sense.

Although personally, if they were going to adapt it, a smarter change may have been him not just having sex with Jeyne, but her actually becoming pregnant as being the reason Robb felt compelled to marry her. Not just because of her honor, but because he's seen what it means to be born a bastard.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Former Lord of Winterfell

[Winter In My Heart]

And my point is her pretty face wasn't the reason he fell for her.

Part of the problem here is that Robb is so much older than in the books. It's easier to imagine a 15-16 guy falling hard for a girl based on what we were given than it is a guy who appears to be more than 10 years older. And that really applies both to book Robb and show Robb. No matter how they did it, it wasn't going to make much sense.

Although personally, if they were going to adapt it, a smarter change may have been him not just having sex with Jeyne, but her actually becoming pregnant as being the reason Robb felt compelled to marry her. Not just because of her honor, but because he's seen what it means to be born a bastard.

Your not understanding my point. I had posted that it was a let down Walder Frey didn't actually insult her and someone said it was kind of an insult to reduce her to a 'pretty' face.

I'm not saying anything in regards to Robb and how the two hooked up. Just that in general I didn't see a whole lot more to her other than the mentioned having some morals (like the decent people in the series have.)

[Khal Porno]

No that's not what I personally mean in saying that though like I said I don't see how someone can like it. If you (in general not specifically you) want a cliche love story then Got really shouldn't be the the series to watch or read.

Well I didn't think it was a cliche love story. Please give me many examples of the cliche so I know what you're talking about.

If you're talking about the "king falls in love with a commoner" fantasy trope (if that really is a trope - people here say it is, but I can't think of any examples off the top of my head), well then it's an inversion of it, because we find out very quickly that she is NOT a commoner, but an idealistic highborn lady from a foreign nation who has sworn off the life she is meant to have in order to help those less fortunate and gain personal gratification through altruism.

I really like that. It's a cool angle, in my opinion, and there's a lot more going on there than "just a pretty face," or "just a shy girl in the right place at the right time." Also, the "shotgun wedding" is a pretty modern cliche.

[Winter In My Heart]

Well I didn't think it was a cliche love story. Please give me many examples of the cliche so I know what you're talking about.

If you're talking about the "king falls in love with a commoner" fantasy trope (if that really is a trope - people here say it is, but I can't think of any examples off the top of my head), well then it's an inversion of it, because we find out very quickly that she is NOT a commoner, but an idealistic highborn lady from a foreign nation who has sworn off the life she is meant to have in order to help those less fortunate and gain personal gratification through altruism.

I really like that. It's a cool angle, in my opinion, and there's a lot more going on there than "just a pretty face," or "just a shy girl in the right place at the right time." Also, the "shotgun wedding" is a pretty modern cliche.

In a way it's still a troupe because its a sassy foreigner back talking a king. Even though she's highborn she's still lower status in comparison to a king.

I'm saying Talisa as a character in general all she really has is some morals like the other decent in show characters and a 'pretty' face.

I don't see it as a cool angle. It's more to me like a 'really?' And an eye roll thing because its very unoriginal and not creative. They could've done so many different things in the context of the world but they didn't.

My post isn't very long because honestly I'm sick of beating a dead horse. You and others keep asking for examples but there's no point because when people do post examples they're ignored. It just seems like a massive headache and waste of time to keep writing long posts with lists of examples and then someone only picks out one single one to nitpick on and not mention the rest BUT then go on to say oh you have no examples. (Which I've seen happen many times in many different cases, not just the Talisa argument.)

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I really like that. It's a cool angle, in my opinion, and there's a lot more going on there than "just a pretty face," or "just a shy girl in the right place at the right time." Also, the "shotgun wedding" is a pretty modern cliche.

Well, the problem is that if they really wanted to make it a truly fleshed-out romance, with a truly-fleshed out Talisa, that would have taken a lot more screen-time than they were understandably willing to commit to what was essentially a plot device. They needed to come up with something that wouldn't take a ton of screentime, but that might be convincing. So, they decided to give her the kind of noble, "good-guy" story that would also reflect well on Robb for loving her for that reason.

I actually thought that worked as well as anything else they could have done given the time constraints.

[Khal Porno]

In a way it's still a troupe because its a sassy foreigner back talking a king. Even though she's highborn she's still lower status in comparison to a king.

I'm saying Talisa as a character in general all she really has is some morals like the other decent in show characters and a 'pretty' face.

I don't see it as a cool angle. It's more to me like a 'really?' And an eye roll thing because its very unoriginal and not creative. They could've done so many different things in the context of the world but they didn't.

My post isn't very long because honestly I'm sick of beating a dead horse. You and others keep asking for examples but there's no point because when people do post examples they're ignored. It just seems like a massive headache and waste of time to keep writing long posts with lists of examples and then someone only picks out one single one to nitpick on and not mention the rest BUT then go on to say oh you have no examples. (Which I've seen happen many times in many different cases, not just the Talisa argument.)

She argues with him in like one, maybe two episodes. And at that point as far as she's concerned, he ISN'T a king. He's just a dude going around saying he is. Later on she is more deferential and concerned about her manners, etc.

Once again, she's an idealistic character who's forsaken privilege to do what she feels is right. Robb falls in love with her because she is a kindred spirit. More going on there than just a pretty face. Also, I don't see how it's "unoriginal" or not creative. However, just so you know, NOTHING is "original," everything is a variation on something that has come before. And it is creative, because they needed her character to be mobile because Robb was on the move, and she needed to be there for him to fall in love with her. Making her an idealistic nurse makes perfect sense.

As far as examples - I've never seen anyone here post any. I just tried looking it up, couldn't find anything that encapsulates this scenario, and unless there are at least five examples of the exact same scenario that have repeatedly been used in recent years, then it is not a cliche.

So please, if you have specific examples, I would love to hear and discuss them.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Khal Porno

[Winter In My Heart]

Well, the problem is that if they really wanted to make it a truly fleshed-out romance, with a truly-fleshed out Talisa, that would have taken a lot more screen-time than they were understandably willing to commit to what was essentially a plot device. They needed to come up with something that wouldn't take a ton of screentime, but that might be convincing. So, they decided to give her the kind of noble, "good-guy" story that would also reflect well on Robb for loving her for that reason.

I actually thought that worked as well as anything else they could have done given the time constraints.

I thought the show went kind of shot gun wedding because they did it pretty quickly after the sex. But that just my opinion. (Not sure if I'm just reading you guys wrong or not but it sounded like you were saying the books was a shot gun wedding?)

[Khal Porno]

I thought the show went kind of shot gun wedding because they did it pretty quickly after the sex. But that just my opinion. (Not sure if I'm just reading you guys wrong or not but it sounded like you were saying the books was a shot gun wedding?)

Yes, Robb's marriage to Jeyne was DEFINITELY a shotgun wedding. So if you want to see the marriage on the show as a shotgun wedding, then it actually reflects somewhat the story in the books. Although personally I think that on the show he did it because he was in love and wanted her to be his wife, not because (he claimed, he could have been lying - and I think he likely was) he felt an obligation like in the book.

[Winter In My Heart]

She argues with him in like one, maybe two episodes. And at that point as far as she's concerned, he ISN'T a king. He's just a dude going around saying he is. Later on she is more deferential and concerned about her manners, etc.

Once again, she's an idealistic character who's forsaken privilege to do what she feels is right. Robb falls in love with her because she is a kindred spirit. More going on there than just a pretty face. Also, I don't see how it's "unoriginal" or not creative. However, just so you know, NOTHING is "original," everything is a variation on something that has come before. And it is creative, because they needed her character to be mobile because Robb was on the move, and she needed to be there for him to fall in love with her. Making her an idealistic nurse makes perfect sense.

As far as examples - I've never seen anyone here post any. I just tried looking it up, couldn't find anything that encapsulates this scenario, and unless there are at least five examples of the exact same scenario that have repeatedly been used in recent years, then it is not a cliche.

So please, if you have specific examples, I would love to hear and discuss them.

There's been examples posted numerously throughout the site. I wasn't saying this thread in specific. (And I wasn't referring to examples as far as other movies or shows. But examples of what's wrong with her character.)

And it doesn't matter what SHE thinks. He was still proclaimed a king. And she still had no right to go around back talking and questioning a war lord about their position and why they were doing what they're doing. That's very rude and also very out of place, even for a highborn noble woman.

But like I've said, and you even mentioned, this is really beating a dead horse and I've never seen anyone's opinion changed through these discussions. So we can just agree to disagree. People like what they like. Some like a slightly more fleshed out plot device while others think she's not much more interesting. I'm just gonna say it all comes down to prospective and leave it at that.

[Winter In My Heart]

Yes, Robb's marriage to Jeyne was DEFINITELY a shotgun wedding. So if you want to see the marriage on the show as a shotgun wedding, then it actually reflects somewhat the story in the books. Although personally I think that on the show he did it because he was in love and wanted her to be his wife, not because (he claimed, he could have been lying - and I think he likely was) he felt an obligation like in the book.

It still felt like a rushed wedding to me in the show. And we don't know exactly what happened in the books to say for certain it was rushed with Jeyne. And I'm sure he loved Jeyne and also felt an obligation/honor to her. I don't like they cut the honor part out of the show. It could have been love and honor but no they butchered the honor part.