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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

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@ExBruinsFan

@Teardrops

@Tywin's bastard

You've been rather busy for the last few hours, and I just came back home, so I'll read the rest of your posts little later on, but for now I'll just answer few earliest and explain why I find Talisa's line that I quote to be an utter disaster. It's wrong on so many ways, but I'll do my best to go through all of them. ("Winter In My Heart", if I repeat some of the things you already wrote in the discussion, it's not on purpose, but it also not a miracle, since we're obviously in total agreement over Talisa.)

First, "You're fighting to overthrow the king and yet you have no plan for what comes after" implies that she doesn't know that The North declared independence, and that "what comes after" is really of no concern for Robb nor anyone of his soldiers. Which is funny, because she's treating the wounded of that army, so it's a stretch to assume that she's so uninterested in their war goals that she manages to have absolutely no knowledge of them. A person that is familiar with The North's recently proclaimed independence wouldn't have to ask what's Robb going to do with the Iron Throne once he kills Joffrey.

Second, she does have interest after all, because she's asking in a way that implies she's trying to mock Robb for his lack of strategic vision. Which is either hypocrisy, if she's interested in his war goals only for the sake of argument, or terrible inconsistency in writing if she suddenly became genuinely interested.

Third, how can she expect an answer to that question at all? Why the hell would any battle commander - let alone a king - explain his ultimate war goals to a girl he just met and who just a moment ago proudly distanced herself from his army? Asking that question in that circumstances means that she's either stupid to the bone, or that she somehow sensed that Robb's stupid enough to give her an honest answer. If later, it's yet another inconsistency in writing, because from the previous two remarks it's clear that we're not dealing with a woman of some high intelligence.

Fourth, and the biggest one, is that the whole conversation is terribly contrived so she can end up appearing smart. And in order to accomplish that, writers managed to portrait Robb as a damned fool, who's a) discussing his war goals with a chick he just met and who shows no loyalty to his cause whatsoever, and b ) he's even unable to articulate his war goals, though they are of the most simple kind. All he had to say to that stupid question - if he wanted to answer it at all, which is, once again, utter nonsense - is: "I couldn't care less for the Iron Throne". But no, he was so impressed with her pacifistic spirit, that he totally forgot about the brains he inherited from Ned and Cat (both of considerable IQ).

Honestly, the only person I can imagine asking that kind of question to a king on the battlefield just after the encounter with an enemy, would be a psychologist conducting a survey among kings. You know, a scientific research of the mental conditions of nations' leaders under stressful circumstances on their job, which is a tough one in wartime. Anonymity guaranteed and all. That I'd might buy. A nurse questioning a king she just met - not in a lifetime.

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If it was directed to me, I'm afraid I lost interest very early on.

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Arya's promise to the Hound of sticking a sword through his face is foreshadowing, she's going to kill Sandor.

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Having been through the chapters revolving around the sack of Winterfell, I can't seem to understand how Robb wasn't informed about the attack of Ramsays forces, considering he was flashing his banners and all. Sure Sir Rodrik, Cerwyn and company were ambushed but the rest of the two thousand men that survived and were allies of Robb had to inform him of the Bolton attack. But we learn in the Catelyn chapters, that Robb listens to just to what Roose tells him, about Ramsay rescuing the survivors. Not to forget that Ramsay saved the two Freys. Is it possible that Ramsay worked under Roose's command? Has anyone figured it out, that could enlighten me?

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Just realized something: as hard as this episode is to watch, it's still less hard than watching politicians on TV.

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I don't recall female apprenticing in the Citadel. And I don't recall them referring to people as 'students'. I don't get why you and others like using modern names/terms like college. Obviously there's not going to be a college in the series.. I don't even remember what the point in this particular conversation was I'm so tired. I'm guessing your trying to say Talisa is more modern by having gone to an actual college? That's funny lol. Make her more modern than she already is.

Really? No females? An organisation that teaches medicine is a medical school. I am pretty sure the medical schools of the 14th century werent much like the ones this century but they stil had that name.

Luckily you dont have to guess what I am saying. I dont recall mentioning Talisa at all

Edited by rmholt

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Arya's promise to the Hound of sticking a sword through his face is foreshadowing, she's going to kill Sandor.

Doubtful. Words are wind. She isnt really mad at him though she doesnt know that yet.

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Oh, good lord. You think that was a 'romance'?

If I learn special love making techniques to bend a man to my will and think of his as my sun and stars and he calls me moon of his life, thats pretty darn romantic. You could put those characters on and in any Harlequin issue.

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Really? No females? An organisation that teaches medicine is a medical school. I am pretty sure the medical schools of the 14th century werent much like the ones this century but they stil had that name.

Luckily you dont have to guess what I am saying. I dont recall mentioning Talisa at all

I'm speaking strictly to Westeros times. I don't remember them ever calling something an actual school.

Um the conversation when you had quoted me was talking about her and her medical knowledge. That's all ill say on that since I'm really sick of talking about her.

It still sounds really modern, compared to the ASoIaF world to be saying medical school instead of using the names used in the series, like Citadel or whatever else. But again I'm tired of all Talisa and her medical knowledge (which was the topic when you jumped in) so I'm just gonna leave it at that seeing as I never said there wasn't any schools back then, just that it seems silly using slightly more modern terms than just using the school terms that the series gives us.

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Doubtful. Words are wind. She isnt really mad at him though she doesnt know that yet.

That's why she refused to mercy kill him and left him to die painfully?

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This episode was brilliant in my eyes. I definitely wasn't expecting it as episode 9 but I was please. But DAYM..... how much media did it get in the UK, I was absolutely shocked - it's obviously a popular show but I didn't think it was THAT popular.

I've never seen such a crazy response to the papers posting images from a TV programme the day after it aired. Mental.

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I set the instrumental version of 'The Rains of Castamere' as my ringtone. Will update.

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I am all for criticism. The RW was the most powerful moment I have ever read. But you just sounded like the most uptight, cynical, closed-minded, arrogant & outright most irritating person I have ever had to read a comment from. Damn man stop nitpicking every single aspect of the show. THE WIND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BLOWING WEST!!!! HER HAIR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CURLY NOT STRAIGHT!!!! THE WEDDING SONG WAS IN A HIGHER KEY THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE!!!! This isn't the books!!!

Every single aspect? Maybe you need to read my post again. That and Catelyn's last chapter from ASoS. There are a plethora of aspects missing from the books that I neglected to mention because I deemed them unnecessary. This is the first and only episode I've had a serious problem with. It's obvious you can't control your anger because someone criticized your favorite TV show. "This isn't the books" is the most ignorant argument someone can use when defending a mediocre adaption. This show set out to adapt the books as closely as possible and was doing a marvelous job up until the second season. The reason I was upset was because "The Rains of Castamere" could/should have been so much better. If the show was crap in general, I wouldn't have cared.

I appreciate some of the complaints, the lack of bannermen mainly. And the lack of Grey Wind action.

So what you're saying is what you think matters matters and what I think matters doesn't?

1) I agree I would've liked to see GreyWind attack Freys at the beginning.... but that would've made it way too obvious something was going to happen. They did show GW howling in despair later.

There were no foreboding details, omens, or ominous undertones in this episode at all. Greywind attacking a random Frey in the TV show is not any more implicative of Robb's fate than Greywind attacking a random Frey in the books. It causes an apprehensive tension, which was supposed to be present.

3) The big connection was between Robb & Catelyn.

Yeah, I said as much. Too bad the writers made it all about Robb & Talisa.

The warging capability between Robb & GreyWind was never really addressed so it would've been pretty random to see Robb all of a sudden warging out of his body into GW.

Random? He was a Stark child with a direwolf. Showing Robb rolling his eyes back would have been enough. We don't need to see him changing skins. We just saw Orell do that same thing just a few scenes ago so I'm sure the unsullied would catch on.

Episode 9: "Is Robb warging? He's a warg like Bran? Is Jon Snow a warg? Where's Grey Wind? Is he going to survive?"

Episode 10: "Wow, they killed Grey Wind anyway! Robb died twice, that's messed up!"

What the hell is so wrong with that reaction. It doesn't take away from Robb & Catelyn at all. Those quick little thoughts provoked from that tiny little detail would soon be overwhelmed by the death of Cat.

And btw saying that GW's death was something barely cared for... yeah you are heartless. Who feels for a creature trying to break free & save his master getting shot multiple times defenselessly? With Arya to sit there & witness it?

Because the dog wasn't desperate at all. They should have made Grey Wind CGI in that last scene and had him pacing around in circles, digging at the floor, clawing at the door, howling relentlessly. Instead, they put a dog in a kennel and bribed it with a treat from the outside (which was incredibly obvious looking at the body language of the animal). I felt bad for Grey Wind when I read G.R.R. Martin's book. Why would I feel bad again watching a far inferior version? I'm sorry, but weren't you aware from my original post that I was too busy being pissed off over all the aforementioned alterations?

5) Robb showed no confusion or despair? The entire time he was speechless, lost in the chaos... Yeah I know he wasn't frantic but he was completely dead inside & in shock.

So when an actor shows no emotion, you chalk it up to being dead inside? I'm going by Richard Madden's consistently mediocre portrayal of Robb. What are you going by?

Why the hell else do you think he slowly rose and barely moved?

Because he was shot by a crossbow?

As for Catelyn's death..... she doesn't say anything about the hair.... she THINKS it.... can you please try to comprehend the difference between a book where thoughts are seen textually.... and a TV show where that does not happen

YOU DON'T SAY, MR. HOLMES! Can you please comprehend the fact Catelyn's thoughts are what made the Red Wedding as disturbing as it was and accept that the TV show has already made various thoughts into worded lines?

This isn't the books!!!

Also, try not being a hypocrite.

The reason why so many non-book readers were so moved is because it was a MOVING EPISODE!!

Some were moved because characters they've grown attached to just died. That's it. This was the Red Wedding in its most basic form. Others thought it was a half-assed way to kill off important people. And the way D&D presented it, it was. George's version is much more complex and emotionally invoking. If they had done it better (which was entirely possible), it could have been the greatest episode of the entire series (arguably the best show on television).

They aren't all uptight and stuck up with only ONE thought on what the episode would be like, bitching about any little thing different.

And here you are bitching about what another person didn't like. You're the one who's coming off as uptight and stuck up.

This episode was phenomenal.

Are you sure you didn't mean to say "in my biased fanboy opinion, I thought this episode was phenomenal" ?

I read the books multiple times.. and I have the ability to watch something on screen and comprehend it is a different entity than the source material it came from.

And I don't? Ok. Blackwater is one of my favorite episodes so far if not my all time favorite. That episode was done tastefully with appropriate alterations. This one was a screw up.

I appreciated the similarities... loved the entirety of the episode.... and respected the changes as this is an ADAPTATION.

The goal of this adaption was to adapt the source as closely as possible. Benioff & Weiss as well as G.R.R. Martin stated as much many times. Season one succeeded at this. Season two & three? Less so. "The Rains of Castamere" was just an awful excuse for a Game of Thrones episode. If G.R.R.M. was presented the script for this episode and this episode alone before agreeing to D&D's offer, he would have slammed his door in their faces.

Stop being so cynical and start treating this like a series that is, for all intents and purposes, a gift. Stop going into an episode expecting A, B, C, D then E to happen & just let the episode happen as it is. People like you are the reason this show could fail: you are so difficult to be pleased and refuse to just enjoy the damn show. You have to bash every little thing that is different to you.

It is a gift, you're right. Game of Thrones is possibly my favorite TV series of all time. But I'm not going to overlook all it's flaws because of how great it is on its good days. Like I said, this is the only time the show has utterly disappointed me. And I'm utterly disappointed because this is my favorite show based on my favorite books.

Pretend you never read the books.... I bet you wont be so critical.

Lol if you only knew that's how I go into every last episode.

Sorry if that came off rude. But dear god I am so sick of seeing overwhelmingly insulting comments that are so clearly exaggerated. Sure there were disappointments... but to use horrible... and other phrases implying this was the worst episode of the series is flat out ridiculous. I don't know what shows/episodes you have been watching but you are out of your mind.

So you apologize then proceed to disrespect me again? This episode was total crap and I'm sticking by that statement. Be sick of it all you want; it doesn't mean you're right.

The simple fact that you said GW being killed meant nothing to you just shows how up in the clouds on your throne ruling book Westeros you are... I don't care how it happened in the books... seeing GW trying to break free, right after seeing Robb is at his final moments, all while Arya is so close to reuniting with her family & almost close enough to get to GW.... thats compelling and absolutely painful.

Fun fact: Robb, Arya, and Grey Wind showed absolutely no emotion during the Red Wedding.

Block out ASOIAF, and step into the world of Game Of Thrones... both are amazing.... but they are two separate things. The show will never be the books... its physically impossible. But they've done a damn good job of an adaptation.

Concerning a decent number of episodes, I would completely agree with you. But the fact you're saying everything about this show is golden all the time really indicates how deep in the closet you really are. You don't need to tell me how to enjoy Game of Thrones; it comes naturally to me. I recommend you learn how to tolerate other people's opinions without shitting all over them like you're superior or something. Then you need to learn how to discern crap from gold (ASoIaF puns :)).

Edit:

  • "this episode" =/= the entire episode
  • "this episode" = the Red Wedding specifically

Edited by Gregor's Nancy Boy

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Warning: Thread necromancy ahead

I'm re-watching the wedding scene, pretty much frame by frame, while I write a synopsis for my thesis. And I just noticed that when the camera looks up at the musicians gallery you can see someone playing a drum, over on the right of the screen. But I can't hear a drum during the massacre, and I find that strange given how the sound of the drums was so pertinent in Catelyn's chapter.

Just an observation, carry on!

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I played the last 90 seconds of Rains during the conference paper I gave this weekend, and I'm fairly sure I heard at least two people in the audience gasp when Cat killed Mrs Frey.



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