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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1


Ran

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So I noticed this today:

"Why? He knows the way." Stannis waved them both away. "Do what you will. Devan, food. Boiled eggs and lemon water."

STANNIS WAS REPLACED WITH A FACELESS MAN. STANNIS DRINKS SALTWATER NOT LEMONWATER.

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The wall is a boring place... if the others are not attackign nothign is going on, and Jon has a lot of Stark family business to settle, and he's really the only stark left who can settle it. And i'll say it again the story started with the starts, follows the starks, adn will end with the starks.

MArtin is into history, and he likes to keep his stories realistic but in history there are your individuals who stand out, and that stories are told about. This is Jon's story, by in large.. Dany is huge, Tyrion is cool... From what i understand Martin wasn't 100 percent sure he even wanted dragons in the book. That to me limits what they're play in the finality of the book is.

Anyway martin always seems to complain about his mereneese knot, we need to make a thread devoted to solving it... just a thread that makes a few assumptions and plays out dany's life/impact on the books in a few ways, and how she achieves it.. how does she go from where she is to westeros, who and what does she bring with her, how does she resolve all the issues she wants to and bring it... and maybe martin can be like AH HA! that's how i'm going to make it believable and get Dany to westeros, and this is what she will do once there... Dragons add a crazy element to the story... what do you want dany to do, does she just conquer everything... Dany seems liek fundamentalyl more kind hearted than other characters.. i think she will end up allying with Jon Snow in one way or another, to fight off the others etc.. and what not.. i just hope they don't get married. Jon just need's to stay away from people born of incest (apologies if anyone here is born of incest) he needs to find some random chick, maybe one of the vipers daughters or something... and he can screw dany on the side, but that's it!!

My post did not take...see below.

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The wall is a boring place... if the others are not attackign nothign is going on, and Jon has a lot of Stark family business to settle, and he's really the only stark left who can settle it. And i'll say it again the story started with the starts, follows the starks, adn will end with the starks.

MArtin is into history, and he likes to keep his stories realistic but in history there are your individuals who stand out, and that stories are told about. This is Jon's story, by in large.. Dany is huge, Tyrion is cool... From what i understand Martin wasn't 100 percent sure he even wanted dragons in the book. That to me limits what they're play in the finality of the book is.

Anyway martin always seems to complain about his mereneese knot, we need to make a thread devoted to solving it... just a thread that makes a few assumptions and plays out dany's life/impact on the books in a few ways, and how she achieves it.. how does she go from where she is to westeros, who and what does she bring with her, how does she resolve all the issues she wants to and bring it... and maybe martin can be like AH HA! that's how i'm going to make it believable and get Dany to westeros, and this is what she will do once there... Dragons add a crazy element to the story... what do you want dany to do, does she just conquer everything... Dany seems liek fundamentalyl more kind hearted than other characters.. i think she will end up allying with Jon Snow in one way or another, to fight off the others etc.. and what not.. i just hope they don't get married. Jon just need's to stay away from people born of incest (apologies if anyone here is born of incest) he needs to find some random chick, maybe one of the vipers daughters or something... and he can screw dany on the side, but that's it!!

I agree with you that Jon is the central focus of the series - at least one of the main ones...and I have stated before, in other forums, that I truly believe that Jon, Dany, and Tyrion will most assuredly form a great alliance. I believe Tyrion will be one of Dany's dragon's riders; thus, I think the dragons are an imperative part of the plot: "Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons. When he had first come to King's Landing for his sister's wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen's throne room..." (121). From GAME OF THRONES, Martin establishes a clear connection between the three - Jon, Dany, and Tyrion - their fates most assuredly interwined. Though there is a little of Martin in each of his characters, Tyrion is a reflection of this history that Martin weaves into the narrative: "Well, my legs may be too small for my body, but my head is too large, although I prefer to think it is just large enough for my mind. I have a realistic grasp of my own strengths and weaknesses. My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind...and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetsone, if it is to keep its edge...When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own...Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back...I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister..." (123-124). Though Martin may not have been sure about dragons, they certainly become an integral part of the plot... As far as Dany and Jon marrying - well, early on in the first reading of the series, I'll admit, the romantic part of me wanted that. As I finish my third reading, however, I have much more intricate theories. One remains the same, Jon, Dany, and Tyrion WILL work together...

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As to Jon resisting temptation and staying true to his vows, I don't think it will happen.

We have Stannis growing frustrated with "Lord Commander" Stark.

We have Robb's Decree.

We have GRRM who appears intent on denying anyone the mantle of paragon.

So I'm the opinion the third time is the charm, and next time an offer come Jon's way, he'll be slaughtering Greyjoys for breakfast.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, now we know why the Dragon Eggs hatched at the end of AGoT, right?

The AAR prophecy is probably the red priest's version of the PWWP one.

Two kings has to die for the dragons to born from stone (obviously in certain situation and only the PWWP can perform the ritual).

Father and son. So, the math is: Drogo+Rhaego+Comet+Dany/PWWP= Dragons.

So the question is: does Dany knows about the ritual and the PWWP prophecy? Or has she only dreamed the content of the prophecy?

Or was it pure luck? I don't believe the last one... it would be so lame.

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We have GRRM who appears intent on denying anyone the mantle of paragon.

Well, I don't think Jon is quite a paragon, and he'll likely have to do some less than savory things to prepare for and win a coming War for the Dawn.

So the question is: does Dany knows about the ritual and the PWWP prophecy? Or has she only dreamed the content of the prophecy?

Or was it pure luck? I don't believe the last one... it would be so lame.

As for the burning of the eggs with Drogo and Mirri Maz Duur, Dany had an idea with all the talk of blood magic and "only death may pay for life" coming from Mirri. As for the PWWP prophecy... There's an archmaester on his way to her, so hopefully she'll know all about it soon.

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As for the burning of the eggs with Drogo and Mirri Maz Duur, Dany had an idea with all the talk of blood magic and "only death may pay for life" coming from Mirri. As for the PWWP prophecy... There's an archmaester on his way to her, so hopefully she'll know all about it soon.

Yep, off course. But what I'm saying is that if AAR=PWWP (confirmed by Martin), and if Melisandre believes that king and prince have to be burned to wake dragons from stone because of the AAR prophecy (new info gained in this chapter), then Dany's ritual worked even because she sacrificed the bodies drogo and rhaego (a king and his son). It cannot be a coincidence imho.

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Yep, off course. But what I'm saying is that if AAR=PWWP (confirmed by Martin)

Where? Are you sure that you are not mistaken?

I agree on the rest (father and son, kings, Drogo and Rhaego), it seems logical.

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Where? Are you sure that you are not mistaken?

No, I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure that GRRM confirmed in a SSM that AA and PWWP are the same persons. Not that difficult to guess if you look at the similarities between the two prophecies.

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But when she put the dragon eggs by Drogo, before she burned him and Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo was already dead and where was her son's body? How could she sacrifice them to hatch the eggs, if they were already dead, and Rhaego's body wasn't even on the pyre...or was it? I don't think it was. The only living person was Mirri Maz Duur. Or maybe since they died in the tent (Rheago and Drogo) this some how brought life to the eggs then and there? Man there are too many twists and turns and mysteries in these books, sometimes trying to figure them all out gives me a headache! :)

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No, I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure that GRRM confirmed in a SSM that AA and PWWP are the same persons. Not that difficult to guess if you look at the similarities between the two prophecies.

Can you offer a quote or something.I'd appreciate. This way, you may just misremember.

PS:

You don't. I found it myself

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Comic_Con_San_Diego_CA_July_20_232/

To all those who doubted, Azor Ahai Reborn and the prince that was promised are two versions of the same prophesied savior/redeemer that is supposed to come.

And the biggest tidbit, in my humble opinion, is:

SPOILER: Possible for ADWD

The second Dance of Dragons does not have to mean Dany's invasion.

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But when she put the dragon eggs by Drogo, before she burned him and Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo was already dead and where was her son's body? How could she sacrifice them to hatch the eggs, if they were already dead, and Rhaego's body wasn't even on the pyre...or was it? I don't think it was. The only living person was Mirri Maz Duur. Or maybe since they died in the tent (Rheago and Drogo) this some how brought life to the eggs then and there? Man there are too many twists and turns and mysteries in these books, sometimes trying to figure them all out gives me a headache! :)

Yep, it's convoluted. But prophecy are not to be taken literally.

Dany caused the death of Rhaego with Mirri's blood magic and killed Drogo because she could not accept his state. So it's not about the pyre but the process that finally awakes the dragon in her.

And I realized that probably I am mistaken about an important point: the PWWP is a vision of the future. It's not a ritual that has to be recreated like Melisandre (and the other Targs who dreamed about dragons) seems to believe.

So, the point of the prophecy is not to offer a magic formula to awake dragons but to foresee Dany's future (in a cycle that is very similar to AA ones).

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Read an interview Sean Bean did, he talks about Ned being or not being Jon's father. How do I put in a spoiler?

This way, if I understand what you ask:

[spoiler]I spoiled you![/spoiler]

Not that matter, whatever Sean Bean has told, he does not know anything, GRRM has not shared that with him.

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This way, if I understand what you ask:

[spoiler]I spoiled you![/spoiler]

Not that matter, whatever Sean Bean has told, he does not know anything, GRRM has not shared that with him.

How do you know? GRRM said that he would share spoilers with the actors if they asked.

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A number of people in this thread are reading a far bit too much into what Lyanna Mormont has to say about which king they do and don't recognize.

The other houses in the North are within Stannis' reach, but they wouldn't necessarily be easy for him to attack. So they ignore the ravens he's sending. "A hawk must have gotten it, or it flew to Winterfell out of habit."

Think about where Bear Island is. It's WAY up north, off the western coast of Westeros. For Stannis to try and take Bear Island, he'd either have to grab Night's Watch's ships on that coast (assuming they have any) which the NW would oppose or they'd have to sail all the way through waters thick with pirates, around Dorne, through waters controlled by the Iron Islands and/or the Lannisters.

What would Stannis possibly gain by going there? Bear Island is decidedly poor, which is why one heir is in exile. What forces it has are in the Riverlands.

Of all candidates to unite Westeros behind a single king, Stannis is the least likely to succeed.

Lyanna Mormont talks tough because she's a child. And because she can afford to risk doing so.

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