R+L=J v. 52

[Alia of the knife]

Ummm blood magic requires blood. Not bones or dust, so no Kings blood in the crypts.

Ummm, symbolic, not literal.

Besides, is it the "magic" or actually the blood LINE?

[UVA]

Absolutely. At a fundamental level the trait they have more in common is this sort of unbearable heaviness of being (reference non casual, dear Ygrain ;)). They never really fit because they are both... anomalies.

Wandering the wasteland of Westeros.org I think Kierkegaard and Thomas Wolfe may be wrong, you CAN go home again (to the RLJ family) whenever there's Kundera reference to ground you.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Wandering the wasteland of Westeros.org I think Kierkegaard and Thomas Wolfe may be wrong, you CAN go home again (to the RLJ family) whenever there's Kundera reference to ground you.

Welcome back! You've been missed :)

The Kundera reference got me thinking the other day about my personal favorite of his- Identity, which of course has its own set of themes quite relevant to RLJ. Of course, it's been so long so I read it that in order to discuss it in any depth I'd need to add it to my reread queue, lol.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Ummm, symbolic, not literal.

Besides, is it the "magic" or actually the blood LINE?

This reminds me of the theories that the Holy Grail is actually the bloodline. Sangreal= sang real= Blood royal

I've postulated Lyanna as the Grail, since another way to look at it is grail= cauldron= womb.

I think the bloodline idea is very interesting because, while it's hidden from sight, I have a feeling the "blood royal" is weaving around the story in ways yet to be revealed

:drool:

[finger]

True, but I'm not sure I'd build my house on a geyser. :o

I've read Twelfth Night, but currently the only thing that was binding the old Kings in Winterfell were the iron swords, and now they're gone, so no, they're not going to stay dead.

:)

Not a geyser, but a hot spring. I won't bore you explaining the difference, but I better give an example. I'm sure you've seen those white monkeys in Japan who indulge themselves in a natural jacuzzi between the snow. That's how I imagine Winterfell.

I was remembering Twelfth Night, not because the WF kings, but for sieblings lost at sea and given for dead, and then reappeared. And also for some ethernal truths like women always getting what they want, or that it goes as first consummate, then look for the septon, money talks, and so on. On top, it's a load of fun.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Not a geyser, but a hot spring. I won't bore you explaining the difference, but I better give an example. I'm sure you've seen those white monkeys in Japan who indulge themselves in a natural jacuzzi between the snow. That's how I imagine Winterfell.

I've thought of this too :)

I was remembering Twelfth Night, not because the WF kings, but for sieblings lost at sea and given for dead, and then reappeared. And also for some ethernal truths like women always getting what they want, or that it goes as first consummate, then look for the septon, money talks, and so on. On top, it's a load of fun.

Oh no! Twins again :P

[Alia of the knife]

Wandering the wasteland of Westeros.org I think Kierkegaard and Thomas Wolfe may be wrong, you CAN go home again (to the RLJ family) whenever there's Kundera reference to ground you.

Yeahhhh, your back!! :)

Not a geyser, but a hot spring. I won't bore you explaining the difference, but I better give an example. I'm sure you've seen those white monkeys in Japan who indulge themselves in a natural jacuzzi between the snow. That's how I imagine Winterfell.

I was remembering Twelfth Night, not because the WF kings, but for sieblings lost at sea and given for dead, and then reappeared. And also for some ethernal truths like women always getting what they want, or that it goes as first consummate, then look for the septon, money talks, and so on. On top, it's a load of fun.

I was joking, as I was thinking of Yellowstone Park, :P , and yes the image of those very happy Japanese monkeys is a good analogy for the springs of Winterfell.

My elderly great-great aunt use to "take the waters" at a place called "Sweet Springs" for therapeutic reasons, but as I said, I think it's deliberate that Martin chose Winterfell for his hot springs as opposed to another House, so I think they will serve a purpose.

And I also think it's significant that the swords the Kings and Lords of Winterfell held across their laps, which are now gone, was the thing that kept the dead, dead.

Note: Women don't always get what they want, my Husband is a big obstacle to that. :laugh: I also don't get away with anything either. :unsure:- though I try.

I've thought of this too :)

Oh no! Twins again :P

How old is Wylla Manderly again, Meera Reed.............. :ph34r:

[Ygrain]

ADWD p.430, Roose Bolton:

"Redfort said he (Domeric) showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first.", following right after the famous "Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself".

I think that the reveal of Lyanna as KotLT in TWOW is being set up.

[FittleLinger]

ADWD p.430, Roose Bolton:

"Redfort said he (Domeric) showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first.", following right after the famous "Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself".

I think that the reveal of Lyanna as KotLT in TWOW is being set up.

You really think so? I think it will remain D&E theritory - it's all but spelled out there, I mean, the ones who haven't read D&E will by, "Lyanna was Knight of the what now?". I know the story is mentioned by Meera, but I don't know...

[Alia of the knife]

ADWD p.430, Roose Bolton:

"Redfort said he (Domeric) showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first.", following right after the famous "Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself".

I think that the reveal of Lyanna as KotLT in TWOW is being set up.

Agreed, and especially when you have the intriguing character of Elia Sand as Lady Lance

[Ygrain]

You really think so? I think it will remain D&E theritory - it's all but spelled out there, I mean, the ones who haven't read D&E will by, "Lyanna was Knight of the what now?". I know the story is mentioned by Meera, but I don't know...

Well, I haven't read D&E and I didn't pick on the identity of KotLT by myself, even though I did remember Meera's story. What I do see is reaffirmation of Lyanna as a superb rider as well as of horsemanship as the predominant skill for good jousting, which definitely is not accidental. I'd also say that the clues are thickening - you get three mentions of horsemanship and/or jousting and/or Lyanna each fifty pages or so (Lady Dustin assessment of her and Brandon beling like centaurs is p. 547) - in other words, whenever an opportunity arises to emphasize the issue. Plus, as Alia has pointed out, we're going to have Lady Lance in TWOW for further emphasy.

[FittleLinger]

Well, I haven't read D&E and I didn't pick on the identity of KotLT by myself, even though I did remember Meera's story. What I do see is reaffirmation of Lyanna as a superb rider as well as of horsemanship as the predominant skill for good jousting, which definitely is not accidental. I'd also say that the clues are thickening - you get three mentions of horsemanship and/or jousting and/or Lyanna each fifty pages or so (Lady Dustin assessment of her and Brandon beling like centaurs is p. 547) - in other words, whenever an opportunity arises to emphasize the issue. Plus, as Alia has pointed out, we're going to have Lady Lance in TWOW for further emphasy.

To be honest I caught it without D&E too, although with the help of a few clues from it. Probably what I'm saying is that I don't feel it will be confirmed, because it would be very hard to make the connection to the crowning by Rhaegar. At least I think so. So it will kind of be like a standalone story if they don't reveal the whole thing. But I might be wrong of course.

[finger]

I've thought of this too :)

Oh no! Twins again :P

Should Jon had a twin, who'd be the heir?

He who survives the Other. :lol:

[finger]

Now that you talk of twins, it's a tad out-topic, but isn't there a parallel?

Tywin = Wotan

Cersei = Sieglinde

Jaime = Siegmund

They are related with gold. They have problems with the lenders. (In the end, Wotan, more than be damned, defaulted.) Tywin gave Oathkeeper to Jaime.

But I can't imagine Tommen as Siegfried, not more than I can imagine the Braavosi banker seizing the Walhalla.

Have any of you imagined anyone takes WF by signing a mortgage to the Braavosi banker for the credit, provided he gets rid of the tenants?

Eta: I recall Siegmund was the Woelfling :ohwell:

[UVA]

I think that the reveal of Lyanna as KotLT in TWOW is being set up.

I think so too that there will be confirmation that Lyanna was the KotLT in one of the future books. If not you have to wonder about the authorial intent irt the multiple references and connections made about Lyanna's excellence as a rider -- off the top of my head I can think of:

1) Lady Dustin's centaur comparison,

2) Harwin praising Arya, saying says she rides like a Northman, just like her aunt; and

3) Roose's similar, "half-horse" comment.

In the last two examples Lyanna is used as a standard excellence by which characters (Arya and Domeric) are praised for their riding skill. Add to this, like you said, the multiple references in-universe (D&E notwithstanding) that success at the joust is predominately based on having a very good 'seat'. What is the point to all of this if this doesn't link Lyanna, Rhaegar and the ToH?

@Alia, could there have been a stronger evocation of Lyanna vis-a-vis Elia Sand in the gift TWOW chapter? I tend to think that Martin is as much describing Lyanna as he is Elia Sand here, and of course the latter's name is just so thick with irony. Elia "Lady Lance" demonstrates superior horsemanship and a certain prowess with a lance.

[A Crow Come Over]

You really think so? I think it will remain D&E theritory - it's all but spelled out there, I mean, the ones who haven't read D&E will by, "Lyanna was Knight of the what now?". I know the story is mentioned by Meera, but I don't know...

The Tourney of Harrenhal will not be in the D&E tales, they end at Egg's death.

[Jon Icefyre]

The Tourney of Harrenhal will not be in the D&E tales, they end at Egg's death.

Haha ya I mean how could it be, when neither Duncan or Egg were even alive during the TOH?

[Ygrain]

Haha ya I mean how could it be, when neither Duncan or Egg were even alive during the TOH?

Unless a certain Targ had a prophetic dream, the significance of which he couldn't understand in the least :P

[Jon Icefyre]

Unless a certain Targ had a prophetic dream, the significance of which he couldn't understand in the least :P

Ya I guess they could go that route, although IMO that would kinda seem like a cop out. I'd much rather just see the KOTLT being Lyanna revealed by Howland Reed telling one of the northern characters in one of the next two books.....

[Alia of the knife]

This reminds me of the theories that the Holy Grail is actually the bloodline. Sangreal= sang real= Blood royal

I've postulated Lyanna as the Grail, since another way to look at it is grail= cauldron= womb.

I think the bloodline idea is very interesting because, while it's hidden from sight, I have a feeling the "blood royal" is weaving around the story in ways yet to be revealed

:drool:

How did I miss this!

Great analysis, I agree.

The blood "magic" may have aided in the hatching of the dragons, but I think there is a significance to Dany that is the driving factor in the hatching of those dragons, particularly her blood.

As I've said before, I think it's the dragon females that are the ones with the power to hatch them, but as with the men, not all female Targaryens are "dragons," just as the men aren't, hence the irony of the females being set aside in the line of succession.

And it would be the same with Lyanna given she has the blood royal of the Kings of Winter with their own particular powers.

I think so too that there will be confirmation that Lyanna was the KotLT in one of the future books. If not you have to wonder about the authorial intent irt the multiple references and connections made about Lyanna's excellence as a rider -- off the top of my head I can think of:

1) Lady Dustin's centaur comparison,

2) Harwin praising Arya, saying says she rides like a Northman, just like her aunt; and

3) Roose's similar, "half-horse" comment.

In the last two examples Lyanna is used as a standard excellence by which characters (Arya and Domeric) are praised for their riding skill. Add to this, like you said, the multiple references in-universe (D&E notwithstanding) that success at the joust is predominately based on having a very good 'seat'. What is the point to all of this if this doesn't link Lyanna, Rhaegar and the ToH?

@Alia, could there have been a stronger evocation of Lyanna vis-a-vis Elia Sand in the gift TWOW chapter? I tend to think that Martin is as much describing Lyanna as he is Elia Sand here, and of course the latter's name is just so thick with irony. Elia "Lady Lance" demonstrates superior horsemanship and a certain prowess with a lance.

On Elia Sand:

Yes, in fact Elia Sands evolution as Lady Lance I think confirms Lyanna as the KotLT, as many other readers surmised as well, and I will be watching her with baited breath as I think she will tell Lyanna's story as Martin does like his story within stories, as well as his ironies.

Misc. Ironies:

I am going to crackpot predict that before this series is over, Sansa is going to take someone down with a sword or dagger, and an adult Arya at one point will be the most celebrated Courtesan, (or posing as one via the FM), in Braavos on par with the famed Venetian Courtesans of the Renaissance, specifically Veronica Franco.

Dresses and daggers indeed. :cool4: