The Last King`s Man: Rereading Davos

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Melisandre to Davos, from Davos III:

The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. [...] You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R’hllor even now... yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again.

I think that in this chapter, Mel's vision might be proving true. Mel had spared Davos despite his attempt to murder her because she believed that he had yet a role to play. Without Davos' intervention, Stannis (and Mel) wouldn't have gone to the Wall (where "R'hllor" needs them to go ?), by Stannis' admition to Jon.

“Any cat may stare into a fire and see red mice at play.”

Another tricky factor in interpreting fires (and by extention, visions and prophecies). It is not enough to distinguish between what might come and what must come ("Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were." Seems to be a common wisdom about visions in the East). You must also be aware that you might see what you want to see. That's something that Mel aknowledges in regard to others, but seems to forget about herself.

The clouds hid most of the Ice Dragon, all but the bright blue eye that marked due north.

A reference to the bright blue eyes of the white walkers, pointing to the nature of danger that comes from the north?

When Davos left the [north] window his shadow went before him, tall and thin, and fell across the Painted Table like a sword.

A lot has been said about shadows. Varys' riddle on power and his comment on Tyrion's shadow, noticeable scenes of Jon's (and irrc Sam's) shadows on the Wall... This one must be of importance too. After all, the Painted Table represents Westeros. Davos' shadow is compared to a sword. In the scene there are references to fire, sea and salty air, and stone dragons... And another broken promise that after this, he's going back to his wife. Even though I'm quite sceptical about the significance of the Azor Ahai prophecy, I cannot but notice that too many of its "requirements" are met in Davos.

A paper shield trumps the magic sword

Stannis slid Lightbringer from its scabbard. Its glow filled the chamber. “Say what you will, but say it quickly.” The muscles in the king’s neck stood out like cords.

Davos fumbled inside his cloak and drew out the crinkled sheet of parchment. It seemed a thin and flimsy thing, yet it was all the shield he had. “A King’s Hand should be able to read and write. Maester Pylos has been teaching me.” He smoothed the letter flat upon his knee and began to read by the light of the magic sword.

Davos the smuggler is, ironically, a man of words. Again and again, his arguments are his best protection and his main weapon (and not only with Stannis).

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Pylos' way of conduct should be a warning not to take at absolute value the conspiracy theories regarding the maesters. Yes, the conclave may have a certain agenda (though, there may be more than one agendas; there are hints that there are at least two fractions within the Citadel elite). But it doesn't mean that every individual maester is a part of a conspiracy and plays a role that is predesigned from his superiors. Some may just as simply as do their duty as best as they undrestand it.

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Again, Edric Storm is presented as a very likeable boy. It is very sweet how he cares for Shireen and her feelings - more than her own parents do...

[DrunkSister]

Pylos' way of conduct should be a warning not to take at absolute value the conspiracy theories regarding the maesters. Yes, the conclave may have a certain agenda (though, there may be more than one agendas; there are hints that there are at least two fractions within the Citadel elite). But it doesn't mean that every individual maester is a part of a conspiracy and plays a role that is predesigned from his superiors. Some may just as simply as do their duty as best as they undrestand it.

I'd say that there does not have to be a conscious conspiracy on the part of the maesters for them to perpetuate an agenda. It is enough that they impose their worldview upon their masters and act upon their prejudice (misogyny, magic-does-not-exist, political ideologies, which part of past events enters the history curriculum for the nobility...). Which does not exclude the existence of any particular conspiracy.

I'd say that most maesters we see are not part of any conspiracy, but they are all educated in one place by same teachers and have the same societal role to play.

(I have nothing more to add to the discussion)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I'd say that there does not have to be a conscious conspiracy on the part of the maesters for them to perpetuate an agenda. It is enough that they impose their worldview upon their masters and act upon their prejudice (misogyny, magic-does-not-exist, political ideologies, which part of past events enters the history curriculum for the nobility...). Which does not exclude the existence of any particular conspiracy.

I'd say that most maesters we see are not part of any conspiracy, but they are all educated in one place by same teachers and have the same societal role to play.

Oh, yes. Imprinting a certain ideology on their students is a lot more effective in the long term. Each member acts on their own, according to the particular situation, loyalties, motives etc, but in the end, if the majority is doing just what they think it's "right" - and what is right is defined by their Citadel education - it all adds up to pushing the world to a certain desired direction.

[Fire Eater]

ADwD Davos I:

Plot Summary:

Davos is brought before Lord Borrell of Sweetsister. Saan has abandoned Stannis, and Davos came to Sweetsister on a row boat. Davos learns news from Borrell. Tywin is dead, and that Cersei rules in KL. Davos convinces him to send Davos to White Harbor after Borrell gives the story of Ned in a position similar to Davos. Davos manages to convince him to send him to White Harbor.

Davos Political Skills and Dealings:

"Lord Sunderland is sworn to the Eyrie," Davos said. "By rights he should deliver me to Lady Arryn." He would stand a better chance with her than with the Lannisters, he judged. Though she had taken no part in the War of the Five Kings, Lysa Arryn was a daughter of Riverrun, and aunt to the Young Wolf.

This is a good way to avoid being sent to KL where Davos would surely lose his head, and excluding what Lysa is actually like, this politically makes sense. At the Eyrie he could try to persuade the Arryns (excluding his ignorance of Lysa) who were kin to the Starks and Tullys, both enemies of House Lannister, and House Arryn lost kin in the RW as well through Robb and Cat.

What answer does he want?

"The lion is dead," said Davos, slowly. "There's your truth, my lord. Tywin Lannister is dead."

"What if he is?"

"Who rules now in King's Landing? Not Tommen, he is just a child. Is it Ser Kevan?"

Candelight gleamed in Lord Godric's black eyes. "If it were, you'd be in chains. It's the queen who rules."

Davos understood. He nurses doubts, He does not want to find himself upon the losing side.

"No more than I was," said Davos Seaworth.

Davos proves to be a good politician, he reads Borrell like Sam reads a book. He manages to ask him pointed questions, and find what he wants and gauge where he stands. He realizes that Borrell is uncertain as to who will win, and manages to use this information to his advantage by offering Lord Borrell a way out that allows him to still stay a neutral course, and avoid openly declaring for either side.

Davos/Ned Parallels

Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him.

Ned was in Breakwater Castle with Mad King Aerys demanding his head, but he convinced Lord Borrell to help him to White Harbor. Likewise, Cersei AKA Mad Queen Aerys, demanded the head of Davos, but Davos convinced Borrell to let him got to White Harbor. Ned's side later wins the war against Aerys and the Targaryens, and so I imagine Davos's side will triumph against Cersei and the Lannisters (not necessarily Stannis taking the IT, but I think whichever side Davos will be on in the end will succeed).

The Manderlys

If Winterfell was the heart of the north, White Harbor was its mouth.

The mouth, along with being used for food to enter, is what is used to speak with. Manderly could speak for the Northmen and Rickon. He wants the Starks to be returned to power, and Manderly could be speaking for the north in this matter.

We learn that the Manderlys were originally mighty Reach lords who ended up getting attained and exiled.

Foreshadowing:

Red crabs and spider crabs and conquerors.

Crabs can refer to monarchs in this instance. The red crab is Stannis, the conqueror crab is Dany, that is her ethos, and the spider crab is Aegon, who is supported by Varys the Spider.

The lord tore off another chunk of bread to swipe out his trencher. "The Freys were bringing the fat fool a bag of bones. Some call that courtesy, to bring a man his dead son's bones. Had it been my son, I would have returned the courtesy and thanked the Freys before I hanged them, :laugh: but the fat man's too noble for that." He stuffed the bread into his mouth, chewed and swallowed.

Borrell is mentioned to be eating the entire time he is talking about Manderly and his dealings with the Freys. A little clue to what Manderly does to the Freys who arrive in White Harbor?

Lightning split the northern sky

Stannis, born in SE, is helping to split the Northern forces

I have seen the dawn ,at least,

Davos may have a role in the Battle for Dawn.

[Mithras]

They walked quickly across a shadowed yard and down some steps, under the stone tail of a frozen dragon.

A hint to the stone dragon who is described as frozen, know anyplace cold? Davos, a King's Hand, is smuggling Edric Storm, a boy of royal blood, to safety under the nose of King Stannis Baratheon. We know from Edric Dayne's nickname that another name for Edric is Ned. It brings to mind Ned Stark, also a King's Hand, smuggling a boy of royal blood, Jon, to safety under the nose of Stannis's brother, King Robert.

“Rickon needs you,” Robb said sharply. “He’s only three, he doesn’t understand what’s happening. He thinks everyone has deserted him, so he follows me around all day, clutching my leg and crying. I don’t know what to do with him.”

In the absence of all his family, Rickon followed his only available brother Robb like his tail. Stones are sometimes used to represent Starks in hiding. I think this foreshadows the mission of Davos about securing Rickon (probably passed as the wildling son of Osha) from Skagos. In other words, stone tail is Rickon and the frozen dragon is Jon.

By the way, I really liked Lord Borrell. GRRM drew him as a short time yet extremely vivid and badass character. I hope we can get more of him.

“The Iron Throne is mine by rights, but how am I to take it? There are four kings in the realm, and three of them have more men and more gold than I do. I have ships… and I have her. The red woman. Half my knights are afraid even to say her name, did you know? If she can do nothing else, a sorceress who can inspire such dread in grown men is not to be despised. A frightened man is a beaten man. And perhaps she can do more. I mean to find out.”

This is a very good wrap-up by Stannis. He does not have the power to take what is his by rights. So he surrenders to Mel because he believes she has power due to the fear she induced on men.

While the boy was gone, Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

As we see, this fear was not a real power but a feeble trick of alchemists. Mel will try more tricks to convince Stannis that she has power so that he can let her do vile things. Burning leeches and trying to seduce Stannis to allow burning of Edric is one of them.

Mel tries the same tactic on Jon too. First she used the smoke for lust on him but he did not fell to it.

In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte.

She stood beneath the scorched stones of the Lord Commander’s Tower, cloaked in darkness and in memory. The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire. When he saw that, Jon’s heart leapt into his mouth. “Ygritte,” he said.

“Lord Snow.” The voice was Melisandre’s.

Then she exploited the emotional state of Jon upon hearing Arya’s marriage to Ramsay. She tried to prove her power to him and finally did it after the death of three rangers in the way she described.

It is also interesting how Jon desires Ygritte and the summer which was revealed upon exposure to smoke for lust.

[Mladen]

I apologize for the huge delay in this thread... Due to professional and other engagements, I wasn't able to end the analysis of Davos II, but I am getting there. It will be done by the end of the week.

Now, this chapter, beside the obvious another red herring for the eternal question "who is Jon Snow's mother" gave us some rather interesting parallels. Fire Eater had touched them in his analysis, but Ned/Davos parallel is something we should really focus on.

The way ASOIAF is composed, it feels as if there is only one completely decent POV per book:

AGOT: Ned

ACOK: Davos

ASOS: Davos

AFFC: Brienne

ADWD: Davos

Ned and Davos have been compared multiple times. The Nedbert and Stavos relationships usually mimics each other in many aspects. The honor, mercy and doing the right thing both Ned and Davos possessed is beyond reproach. But, somehow I feel that people forget some rather powerful as parallels as differences between these two but for the time being the focus should be on mercy. I find very interesting that Davos will be included in Northern storyline, especially his mercy towards the children he shared with Ned. In Game of thrones, Ned actually showed this two times, perhaps even three: with Daenerys and her baby, with Cersei's children and lastly with his own. Unspoken, off the screen, we suspect that the mercy for Jon is one of the most important thing of his life. Davos, approached by Mother through hallucination in ASOS, mimics this task by showing mercy to Edric Storm, and soon to be on a rescue mission for Rickon (I should also mention Brienne who is looking for Sansa, which has rather strange notion for ASOIAF: if you do good, good will come). Nevertheless, the mercy they showed in various occasion and their adamant desire to save children's lives is one of the greatest narrative parallels between them.

OK, Davos II coming this weekend...

[peterbound]

What is your definition of 'decent'? Pretty sure Jon would fill that role in the most of the books (with the exception of feast), as would Sam.

I know this side of the board is heavy with the stannis/davos love, but there are plenty of POV's out there that take up that banner. Hell, I'd tip my hat to Jaime with anything post Storm in that regard.

[Mladen]

What is your definition of 'decent'? Pretty sure Jon would fill that role in the most of the books (with the exception of feast), as would Sam.

I know this side of the board is heavy with the stannis/davos love, but there are plenty of POV's out there that take up that banner. Hell, I'd tip my hat to Jaime with anything post Storm in that regard.

Well Jon, Sansa, and yes Sam would definitely fill the role of the decent people in the books (as for Jaime, threats to catapult children does make him grey), by "decent" (perhaps not the best word) I meant the closest-to-white shade of grey character. Ned in the first book is morally almost beyond reproach, standing on moral high ground, with his death, it seems as Davos replaced him in ACOK. Later in AFFC, we have Brienne to fill the void the two of them left. Plus, there is rather beautiful motif of protecting the children in all their storylines.

I truly fail to recognize this thread as being heavy with Stannis love, Davos love perhaps, but that's mostly because we constantly compare him to his archenemy - Melisandre.

[holby2]

I am new to this, so if I am posting improperly or in the wrong place, please correct me...gently.

I am re-reading ADwD and noticed a Melisandre/Davos piece I'd like someone's theory on...

When Melisandre does the big reveal of Mance in his Rattleshirt glamour, her internal dialogue reviews how the glamour/seeming/illusion takes so much out of her, but it is easier if there is a personal item. "A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of finger bones..."

What does this imply about Davos? Has she somehow recovered his bag of finger bones or does it mean that she had some control over him before he lost his finger bones???

Thoughts?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I am new to this, so if I am posting improperly or in the wrong place, please correct me...gently.

I am re-reading ADwD and noticed a Melisandre/Davos piece I'd like someone's theory on...

When Melisandre does the big reveal of Mance in his Rattleshirt glamour, her internal dialogue reviews how the glamour/seeming/illusion takes so much out of her, but it is easier if there is a personal item. "A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of finger bones..."

What does this imply about Davos? Has she somehow recovered his bag of finger bones or does it mean that she had some control over him before he lost his finger bones???

Thoughts?

The most likely explanation is that she lived in the same place as Davos with his well-known bag of fingerbones for several years, making that a natural example to mention.

There are no hints for anything else. Still, the theory does come up sometimes.

[Vana]

Just caught up on all of this. I am in awe.

[KingInTheBrothel]

Really enjoying this thread!

From the beginning, Davos seems somewhat out of place. The comparisons to Ned--who is, for the most part, beyond reproach--are very apt. And yet...Davos has never actually even killed a man (that I can recall, anyway)--at least not face to face, with steel in hand. Yes, Ned was a warrior, and what he did was proper, expected, and just...but still...Davos is just a guy that wanted to make a living without (directly) hurting anyone and seems to still want to. He has ideals and drive, but it's all just--as seen by him, anyway, and without much-needed rationalization.

I only mention this because Davos' 'goodness' in the story is further bolstered by it. I don't completely understand what the purpose of his POV is, other than providing non-first person accounts of Stannis (and maybe that's all it is), if there isn't something more intended for him. Of course, I suppose THAT could also have been said of Ned before the end of AGOT...but he seems even more uncorrupted/corruptible (aside from smuggling, which (his) hasn't been shown in any particularly negative light in the story, besides being forbidden by the law).

My apologies if this has been brought up already somewhere in the last 9 pages or if I missed/got something wrong.

[ShaggyCat]

have to wonder though... if Davos is "good" and we (the readers) all associate the Northern First Men House Stark as the "good" house in Westeros that we're all rooting for to win in some sense - will he switch his loyalty to House Stark if he gets Rickon back? Davos has not been short of seeing the negative in King Stannis' retinue and entourage - he's certainly not keen to remain under the thrall of R'hollor and Melisandre. Would he switch allegiance to the Northern lords, even if only to protect a young boy (substituting his lost sons with Rickon?)

[A wilding]

I don't think that GRRM is the sort of author likely to end his story with all the "good" characters teaming up. He is much more likely to give us bittersweet cross purposes to the end.

And sadly, from all we know of Davos, I don't see his personal loyalty to Stannis ever breaking. Though it is a flexible sort of loyalty that enables him to go against Stannis' orders when he thinks it is in Stannis' best interests to do so, so he might do something out of left field with Rickon.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

.

I believe I found some of the inspiration for Davos Seaworth. I don't know if this will have any more significance in the storyline, but I found this quite intriguing.

"Davy Jones"

Linguists consider it most plausible that "Davy" was inspired by Saint David of Wales, whose name was often invoked by Welsh sailors, and "Jones" by the Biblical Jonah.

St David

He lived a simple life and practiced asceticism, teaching his followers to refrain from eating meat and drinking beer. His symbol is the leek.

Davos’ symbol is the onion which is in the same genus or family as the leek.

Davy Jones's Locker, is an idiom for the bottom of the sea: the state of death among drowned sailors and shipwrecks

Davos has been theorized to have drowned during Battle of Blackwater

Jonah

Jonah was commanded by God to go to the city of Nineveh to prophesy against it "for their great wickedness is come up before me". Ninevah was considered to be the most dangerous place to travel during Jonah’s time, full of murderers, thieves and sinners, so Jonah decides to get on a different boat and flee his responsibility. A huge storm arises and the sailors, realizing this is no ordinary storm, cast lots and discover that Jonah is to blame. The sailors try to dump as much cargo as possible before giving up, but feel forced to throw him overboard, at which point the sea calms. Then Jonah is swallowed by a whale. Eventually Jonah is spat out when he repents and agrees to go to Nineveh.

Davos was cast away after some major storms prompted Saan to desert the Stannis cause.

When Davos washed up on Sweetsister he was found in “The Belly of the Whale” establishment.

Manderly commands Davos to go to Skagos which is supposed to he inhabited by savages and cannibals.

Keep an eye out for more Davy Jones/ St David/ Jonah references. :)

[Tamlin Stark]

Awesome thread. I have nothing to say. Sigh when I read stuff like this, I feel that I know nothing.
And Mladen have you not learned from that page in Martin's book, in regard to timelines and its dangers. It will be done by the end of the week ;)