Why and when the Dany hate began?

[Lion of Judah]

I know it was not justice, and what's worse she knew it too. She did something deliberately unjust, which resulted in the death by torture of many people, and that bothers me, and bothers me more because she *knew* it wasn't just and did it anyway.

Um...you still missed it. The question of delivering justice was never brought up, that is a fan fabrication it never happened. So to say she knew it was unjust is misguided because it would suggest that she viewed the act of executing the Great Masters as not morally right or fair. There is no where in the text that suggests Dany felt that way, but there is evidence that suggest she felt the opposite however.

[Northbound]

Ok yeah so in that one instance you have an example of a high born person doing something that benefits the commoners, and I'm sure there are other examples as well. But can you really characterise the relationship in Westeros between high born and low born as anything other than intensely exploitative as a general rule throughout the series? I don't think you can.

Of course not and I fully agree with you. Just wanted to point out the Aerys thing. :-)

[The Y.O.L.O Submarine]

@themysteriousone, you talk about all these westerosi lords who burn whole towns to the ground and rape and murder the commoners, can you point to some examples aside from gregor and tywin?

[Lord Elrosir]

This thread was a lot more interesting when it was a discussion about Dany rather than slavery.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Um...you still missed it. The question of delivering justice was never brought up, that is a fan fabrication it never happened. So to say she knew it was unjust is misguided because it would suggest that she viewed the act of executing the Great Masters as not morally right or fair. There is no where in the text that suggests Dany felt that way, but there is evidence that suggest she felt the opposite however.

No, you're the one who missed it. The fact it was never brought up is precisely the problem. I like characters who base their actions on issues of justice, who weigh the scales of justice before they act. When people do extreme things like ordering the torture and death of large groups of people, without considering the justice of the act, they lose likability points with me.

[The Pain Yak]

I agree, and you can very much blame every other would-be ruler in the history of ASOIAF for seeing such atrocities and still thinking that it was a good idea for their armies to take what they wanted.

Not in the same way. A Robb Stark or a Stannis Baratheon can have men killed or gelded for raping or murdering. They can enforce discipline, if they see too much looting or abuse of the peasantry. When Tywin Lannister sent Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch into the Riverlands to commit every crime imaginable on its people, it was done as a strategy, not because he couldn't have done more to prevent the worst of it.

In a hypothetical Dothraki invasion of Westeros, Dany would have had no such power, or at least not a power she could exercise consistently. Drogo would have been in charge, and as a product of Dothraki culture rape, murder, slavery and plunder is actually his primary purpose for waging war at all. The price for the iron throne, which Dany claims she wants because she wishes to do justice, would have been paid in massacre and slavery and wholesale destruction on a scale that would have made Gregor seem downright chivalrous. And there wouldn't have been a thing Dany could have done to stop it, being realistic.

The moment that became clear, if she truly cared about the people she intended to rule instead of her own 'rights', she should have tried to talk Drogo out of his intention to invade and accepted her life in Essos with her husband and son. The people in Essos would still suffer, especially if her son had been who he was prophesied to be, but she was in no position to stop that. The future suffering of Westeros in the name of her 'rights' was something she was in a position to stop, if she could talk Drogo out of his plans.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Also wanted to say that I always considered Mirri Maz Durr a heroine and did not like that she was burned to death for her acts of heroism.

[IRON BANK]

Going through threads I've noticed people really vocal about not liking Dany's character and I wonder: it was like this since the beginning or just because of ADWD? Did the TV show have some influence on that?

It began when the readers finally surmised what most of us grasped at the beginning of the series after the failed assasination attempt on Dany's life. That she will come to westeros as a conqueror with proven commanders, hardened soldiers, and three dragons which bodes not well for people who have alot of pov's in westeros they like, because most will not survive the onslaught.

[genegirl]

I like Dany. Even named my white German Shepherd after her.

Dany's time in Meereen is more about writing by GRRM.

On a side note, Mr Martin asked why my daughter didn't name the dog Ghost?

Because our dog is a girl and she is the Khaleesi. ( loves to be loved and major drama queen)

[FuriousGeorge]

Not in the same way. A Robb Stark or a Stannis Baratheon can have men killed or gelded for raping or murdering. They can enforce discipline, if they see too much looting or abuse of the peasantry. When Tywin Lannister sent Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch into the Riverlands to commit every crime imaginable on its people, it was done as a strategy, not because he couldn't have done more to prevent the worst of it.

In a hypothetical Dothraki invasion of Westeros, Dany would have had no such power, or at least not a power she could exercise consistently. Drogo would have been in charge, and as a product of Dothraki culture rape, murder, slavery and plunder is actually his primary purpose for waging war at all. The price for the iron throne, which Dany claims she wants because she wishes to do justice, would have been paid in massacre and slavery and wholesale destruction on a scale that would have made Gregor seem downright chivalrous. And there wouldn't have been a thing Dany could have done to stop it, being realistic.

The moment that became clear, if she truly cared about the people she intended to rule instead of her own 'rights', she should have tried to talk Drogo out of his intention to invade and accepted her life in Essos with her husband and son. The people in Essos would still suffer, especially if her son had been who he was prophesied to be, but she was in no position to stop that. The future suffering of Westeros in the name of her 'rights' was something she was in a position to stop, if she could talk Drogo out of his plans.

Stannis is burning people alive and at war because he has been told he is the fulfillment of a prophecy.

[The Smiling Eye]

LOL

You in denial?

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Stannis is burning people alive and at war because he has been told he is the fulfillment of a prophecy.

Stannis executes people who are committing cannibalism and is at war to stop people like the Lannisters, Boltons, and Freys bleeding the realm while a supernatural enemy prepares to invade and kill everyone. And he's trying to stop the Others, too.

[Sevumar]

Going through threads I've noticed people really vocal about not liking Dany's character and I wonder: it was like this since the beginning or just because of ADWD? Did the TV show have some influence on that?

I've posted many times about the differences between criticizing Dany for her shortsightedness, sense of entitlement, and her lack of willingness to improve herself and "hating" her. I'm not going to rehash those arguments here.

One of the main reasons I dislike Dany is that she claims from the early part of the series that rulers exist to do justice and that Robert specifically is no true king, because he did no justice. Yet, when given the chance, Dany shows no grasp of the concept of justice and makes no serious attempt to educate herself. She is not fit to be a ruler.

[The Pain Yak]

Stannis is burning people alive and at war because he has been told he is the fulfillment of a prophecy.

He's actually at war because he thinks he's the true king, given that Tommen is a bastard born of incest. He would be at war with or without Melisandre.

But the burning thing...yeah. That's definitely Mel's influence and a pretty lousy custom to bring to Westeros.

What does that have to do with Dany, though?

[Father of Hosts]

I started as a disagreement on her character arch.

People who believe Dany will save Westeros and start a reign of peace and understanding that will last a thousand years and just be totally awesome.

VS.

People who believe Dany will be the antagonist/ tragic antagonist and will burn that mother to the ground, while repeatedly using the phrase " I am only a young girl and know little of the ways of war." and screeching her enormously ridiculous string of titles every chance she gets.

Lines were drawn, sides were chosen and people dug in to fight the good fight.

[FuriousGeorge]

Stannis executes people who are committing cannibalism and is at war to stop people like the Lannisters, Boltons, and Freys bleeding the realm while a supernatural enemy prepares to invade and kill everyone. And he's trying to stop the Others, too.

Yeah and those are good intentions just as Dany has good intentions in wanting to liberate people but I'm just saying Stannis' sense of moral justice is just as fallible as Dany's

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Stannis fanboys fear her

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Yeah and those are good intentions just as Dany has good intentions in wanting to liberate people but I'm just saying Stannis' sense of moral justice is just as fallible as Dany's

Dany doesn't have a sense of justice, just a sense of personal ownership which nobody else is allowed.

Also, pretty hilarious trying to hold burning against Stannis, when you know, Dracarys.

[Jasta11]

Um...you still missed it. The question of delivering justice was never brought up, that is a fan fabrication it never happened. So to say she knew it was unjust is misguided because it would suggest that she viewed the act of executing the Great Masters as not morally right or fair. There is no where in the text that suggests Dany felt that way, but there is evidence that suggest she felt the opposite however.

And a ruler who crucifies potentially innocent people (and allowing her enemies to choose these people to boot!) for petty vengeance is a good thing how?

[Lady of Dragonstone]

The show definitely makes it worse.

I've read a lot of in-depth discussion of Dany's actions on this forum, and they have definitely made me think about her actions. Nonetheless, she is my favorite female character. I think it's important to not compare her actions with other characters -- none of them are in the same situation, and none are exactly alike. There were some actions of her that I didn't think were smart, but nobody is perfect and I like to keep in mind that she is a young teen girl. Having been one myself previously, it blows my mind that she HAS done what she has. She does have good intentions, but her actions and the advice that she receives are often the wrong thing to do.

Honestly, in AGOT Daenerys WAS characterized as a savior. Now, in ADWD, we see her stumble, and then start to find herself. I think people just lost hope in her....