Should tipping be banned?

[Leonardo]

Who the hell is mewling over money so badly they can afford to eat out and NOT tip?

What an asinine argument. Poor bastards shouldn't expect service if they aren't willing to pay for it. It's called the service INDUSTRY for a reason.

[Errant Bard]

Who the hell is mewling over money so badly they can afford to eat out and NOT tip?

Uh, in this thread, nobody. Where did that come from?

[Leonardo]

Uh, in this thread, nobody. Where did that come from?

Well my point is why is it even an issue then?

If you can afford to go out to eat, and you sit down at a table, you know before you look at the menu whatever you get is going to cost a baseline amount of money depending on the service. When you're paying 500 bucks on a meal, I don't think 80 dollars is that much more when you're willing to go out, and spend money just on having people cook and bring food to you.

If you are willing to have someone just bring food to you and let you be able to jabber orders at them while you take a break in conversation, why quibble over a 20% difference in price?

It just speaks a lot to the entitlement people expect themselves yet so quickly deny others.

My apologies for the language.

[Shryke]

You obviously still do not understand what this thread is about.

It's not about not tipping because people can't afford it, it's about giving the cost up front and on the bill and paying people a real wage instead of a an artificially low wage expected to be made up by tips.

[Leonardo]

No, I get it, I'm saying that when I go out to eat, I always tip generously far above what I believe the standard is, as high as 50%, because I expect a high level of service if I am willing to go all out and have people just bring things to me as I get food.

All this really boils down to is being able to collect taxes on what used to be tips from waiters. Without waiters relying on tips, all of their income is taxed. I'm not sure about tax and tips in other countries; I just know here tips are certainly not taxed and that's the only reason I could imagine trying to pass the law.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Tips in the US (and most other countries I'm aware of) are absolutely taxable already. Some people are just shady about reporting it (or all of it). Where is your 'here'?

Unless you're a regular somewhere, tipping 50% won't make a difference to your service, as the meal will be done by the time the waitstaff get the tip.

ETA: I'm not saying don't tip 50%, or other high amounts. nasrudin can confirm that I tend to tip on the high side myself. I'm just not seeing how your arguments actually relate to the thread topic. Your argument seems to assume that tips are 1) expected 2) better than an upfront service charge 3) better than increased wages for the staff* 4) a guarantor of better service (and better at it than, again, increased wages or training).

I do agree with you that in a place where tipping is expected, that should absolutely be factored into the cost of going out.

[Happy Ent]

All this really boils down to is being able to collect taxes on what used to be tips from waiters.

… which is how the rest of society functions.

The onus is on you to explain why waiting should be treated differently than any other job. The incentive structure is strange, the taxation is iffy at best, … Who benefits from this weird outlier?

[ThinkerX]

Ok...

I said this once already.

MC said it again.

TIPS ARE TAXABLE INCOME. Servers (including Pizza Delivery Drivers like I used to be) are *required* to report tips at the end of each shift. The IRS, through whatever means, has a VERY good idea about what the income from tips should be. If said Server (or Pizza Delivery Driver) is stupid enough to under-report tips, or claim no tip income on a consistent business, then the IRS falls on said business like the proverbial ton of bricks.

I HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN MORE THAN ONCE.

I believe MC has seen this happen more than once as well.

As to paying employees a living wage...HA! HA! HA! The corporate buffoons running the resteraunt and retail chains are far too greedy and stupid to actually pay a decent wage to the people manning the shops which keep them in business. Much better, from their sick, worthless perespective, that the money go to themselves and their equally worthless cronies at HQ.

Servers (waiters and waitresses) at the places I worked did get tiny raises every year or so. Start out at minimum wage and three or four years later, they'd be a couple bucks above that. Then management would usually try to run them off without actually firing them. Same with cooks. As a pizza delivery driver, though, the only time my base pay went up was when the minimum wage increased.

[mcb]

As to paying employees a living wage...HA! HA! HA! The corporate buffoons running the resteraunt and retail chains are far too greedy and stupid to actually pay a decent wage to the people manning the shops which keep them in business.

You mean, they are genetically greedier and stupider than corporate buffoons in all other business branches which don't run on tips (manufacturing, for example), yet somehow survive? How come?

I'd like to see, for example, a mortgage loan modeled after this fashion: it would cost central bank's basic interest rate plus discretionary tip. Because that's the only way for bank employees to actually get paid - bank paying them an actual salary would be, somehow, "unrealistic".

[Castel]

You mean, they are genetically greedier and stupider than corporate buffoons in all other business branches which don't run on tips (manufacturing, for example), yet somehow survive? How come?

I'd like to see, for example, a mortgage loan modeled after this fashion: it would cost central bank's basic interest rate plus discretionary tip. Because that's the only way for bank employees to actually get paid - bank paying them an actual salary would be, somehow, "unrealistic".

More like, they've already slipped through the door and are not going to be forced back to the old system no?

[mcb]

More like, they've already slipped through the door and are not going to be forced back to the old system no?

Yes, Status Quo is God, after all. But we're arguing not whether it is, but whether it makes sense.

[ThinkerX]

You mean, they are genetically greedier and stupider than corporate buffoons in all other business branches which don't run on tips (manufacturing, for example), yet somehow survive? How come?

I'd like to see, for example, a mortgage loan modeled after this fashion: it would cost central bank's basic interest rate plus discretionary tip. Because that's the only way for bank employees to actually get paid - bank paying them an actual salary would be, somehow, "unrealistic".

Did you somehow forget TARP? And the special interest rates available only to a privildged few institutions? QE 1, 2, and...I think were up to QE3, by now ain't we? The only we reason we still have a mortgage banking industry is because of government handouts like this and a willingness to tolorate blatently fraudulent book keeping, like hiding bad debt 'off book' so as to claim a profit. .

Those idiots made bad loans with nary a thought to the consequences for DECADES, ignoring one warning after another.

Same story with the automakers. They deliberately made vehicles for decades for which there was no real market, and the ONLY reason they are still around is because of a government handout - which also screwed over their shareholders and shop employees. Didn't see any executives suffer for their poor decisions, though.

[Greg]

But I don’t understand the incentive structure here. There is no record of the actual size of the tip (right? it’s still mostly cash?), so what is the motivation to report the correct amount?

Three reasons:

(1) The already mentioned legal penalties.

(2) Undereporting your income makes it more difficult to obtain consumer loans.

(3) Disability and workers compensation lost time payments are calculated as a percentage of your weekly average wage. If you get hurt, cannot work, and have consistently underreported your tips you will get paid less than the amount to which you are entitled.

[mcb]

Did you somehow forget TARP? And the special interest rates available only to a privildged few institutions? QE 1, 2, and...I think were up to QE3, by now ain't we? The only we reason we still have a mortgage banking industry is because of government handouts like this and a willingness to tolorate blatently fraudulent book keeping, like hiding bad debt 'off book' so as to claim a profit. .

Those idiots made bad loans with nary a thought to the consequences for DECADES, ignoring one warning after another.

Same story with the automakers. They deliberately made vehicles for decades for which there was no real market, and the ONLY reason they are still around is because of a government handout - which also screwed over their shareholders and shop employees. Didn't see any executives suffer for their poor decisions, though.

Just take notice that you're arguing my point ("execs in service industry aren't any exception in their species"), and shooting down yours ("white collars running restaurants are so unusually greedy and stupid").

[Castel]

Yes, Status Quo is God, after all. But we're arguing not whether it is, but whether it makes sense.

And as far as I can tell it it does for them? They pay less than minimum wage and their employees make more than it and customers feel like they're being generous so they're happy I guess?

Just take notice that you're arguing my point ("execs in service industry aren't any exception in their species"), and shooting down yours ("white collars running restaurants are so unusually greedy and stupid").

You mean the point you constructed for him right? Because I saw it first in your post.

[Ken Stone]

Tipping should be banned, but there should be a 15% surcharge on the bill that goes the servers. To ensure quality of service I purpose the reverse tip. If you think you got bad service then the server is obligated to hand a percentage of that surcharge back to you.

[SkynJay]

Never be able to confirm the story, but had a friend tell me he once had a table put money in the middle as he took their drink order. The told him that pile was his "potential" tip. Sounds like they would like your proposal.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Never be able to confirm the story, but had a friend tell me he once had a table put money in the middle as he took their drink order. The told him that pile was his "potential" tip. Sounds like they would like your proposal.

That happened on an episode of "Third Rock from the Sun". Dick wanted to change the way tiping was done.

[ThinkerX]

Just take notice that you're arguing my point ("execs in service industry aren't any exception in their species"), and shooting down yours ("white collars running restaurants are so unusually greedy and stupid").

Uh....what?

I have a very low opinion of the corporate executive caste across the board. Was I not clear? Doesn't matter if said corporate executives run a resteraunt chain, a bank, or an oil company. They come across as greedy, short sighted scum.

[Nas!]

nasrudin can confirm that I tend to tip on the high side myself.

I can and will confirm this. Eefa and I bumped servers into higher tax brackets and enabled bartenders with expensive coke habits wherever we went.