Should tipping be banned?

[MercenaryChef]

Yes. Admittedly I do tip in restaurants here, but in the vague understanding part of it will end up in the kitchen. Although I have no idea how these things are divided here. It is complicated because in most restaurants the service staff that will show up during the meal seems to be more or less random/based on who has time.

actually it rarely if ever goes into the kitchen. almost 20 years in the business and i have only been two places that tips went to the kitchen.

regarding the wage structure of a restaurant...

in dc for example the top end a cook will make is $20 per hour. before taxes this person is making $3200 a month. easily a third of that is going to rent (likely more). quickly this top end earning is not really that great.

once you have decided what the 'living wage' is for your area (let us say $20 per hour in dc) and hand that out to each and every person on your payroll (as we have banned tipping) my wage percentage as an operator has increased from say 35% (which ours is) to close to 50%. now i will pass this onto the consumer. they now must take on the burden of my increased costs. just like when my price of scallops increase so does my menu price i will have to adjust everything to take on this new 15% in labor costs.

the american consumer is a finicky creature. the europeans in this thread may not be as such. but, an american consumer who finds a steak that was $40 is now $46 is a tough pill to swallow. as they have been culturally acclimated to just drop 15% or more after the meal they are still covering these costs just not directly.

one of the worst things that would come from this new structure is that a lot of places would simply close. their customer base would not accept the price hikes and restaurants would close down leaving people without jobs.

truly how is a service charge attached to a meal as is common in europe any different than tipping?

[Honey Badger]

I've personally seen the difference between tipping and no-tipping cultures in restaurants, and haven't had the stereotypical bad service of no tip incentivized places. In terms of cost it will probably be cheaper to pay the meal price and not tip as market prices will keep the hike competitive; I doubt it would cover the 15% gap. More like wait staff will simply take less.

I do feel for those who make hundreds in a single night at a good place, as that possibility would be gone. However, a part of me still doesn't understand why servers make so much in tips while the kitchen staff gets little to none. In my opinion, they're doing the tougher grunt work in cooking and cleaning. Servers just serve and manage drinks. They're not making anything.

[MercenaryChef]

I do feel for those who make hundreds in a single night at a good place, as that possibility would be gone. However, a part of me still doesn't understand why servers make so much in tips while the kitchen staff gets little to none. In my opinion, they're doing the tougher grunt work in cooking and cleaning. Servers just serve and manage drinks. They're not making anything.

as a cook/chef i used to have a lot of wrath towards these people who were making $200-$300 a night waiting tables...serving my food....food i worked hard on...living very well on my honed craft.

but, those days are over. i could have been a server if i wanted. and actually there are some very very very good ones. do they deserve to make double what i do? who can really say? that is just part of the culture of service in america.

there are plenty of careers/jobs that pay well more than the work is likely worth. if it is really a big enough deal for people they can always go and get one of those jobs.

i have always been happy enough with what i do that the financial imbalance has not really been a big deal to me. i get to wield a sharp knife, play with fire, turn animals into amazing dishes. i would not trade that which i do for the money a good server in a good place makes.

on serving...it is not as simple as dropping off food, taking an order, etc. it is in a diner or something like that. but, at it's highest end it takes immense skill, training, dedication and devotion. i have eaten at three of the top ten restaurants in the united states. the service was amazing. these people are not doing these jobs until their acting career takes off. this is what they do. they are fantastic at it. they get paid. are they overpaid for what they do? that it a matter of perspective i suppose.

[naz]

I was having this discussion with a friend the other day and my stance was anti-tipping. But it was more of a hypothetical stance than anything. I don't think the system is going to change, nor do the primary parties involved *want* it to change (i.e., servers and bar/restaurant owners). I don't advocate changing the system; I advocate a desire that the mentality behind the system change. My points:

1. I feel that tying service directly to tips is a selfish and non-sustainable way to run a business. I would rather my employees provide good service because it creates a good atmosphere and environment in general, and promotes the business as a good place to go to. As the system currently is, the service is too often tied to the individual server, which is not good for the overall welfare of the business.

2. That said, I rarely find (these days) examples of where the tip is actually associated with good service. It seems more likely to me that the amount of tip has far more to do with how generous the *customer* is than how good the *server* is. Just look at this thread as an example. You have people who are good tippers in general - these people routinely tip 20% or more, even if the service is average. Why? Because it's become part of the social contract. You don't want to look bad; you don't want to be the cheapskate. Or you simply sympathize with the server because you've been one. I've asked this question of servers and almost all of them admit that the range of tips that they get (percentage-wise) is more a factor of the customer than the server themselves. I.e., there is more variation among good and bad tippers than there is among good or bad service.

3. Before you jump all over me about that last sentence, let me clarify. There is obviously a great variation in levels of service. But this variation is not parallel to the tips that are given for this service. At least that's what I've seen.

4. So, since the actual level of service is somewhat disassociated from the quantity of tips given, due to what I believe is an artificially imposed social contract, I'd be happier with a set 15% service charge (or higher menu price) for what would be considered minimal or average service and then a 5% tip for what I think is exceptional service. You end up paying the same amount (MC's point about increased menu prices notwithstanding), but the onus of providing the bulk of servers' wages is where it belongs... on the employer, not the customer. It's also more quantifiable and taxable.

Note: I was a waiter in HS and college, so I understand the pro-tipping viewpoint as well. I just think it's better to incentivize a server's quality of service based on the welfare of the establishment as a whole than on that of the server him/herself. I believe this is what happens in Europe and in other countries and it's not like people are getting super crappy service there. (I'm sure many Americans will disagree, but I personally think those Americans are frankly spoiled. I don't want a server to fawn all over me with false courtesy and subservience. I just want him/her to do his/her job.)

[Mad Monkey]

truly how is a service charge attached to a meal as is common in europe any different than tipping?

I've always felt that a service charge is fixed at a certain amount, while tipping is more randomized -- it can be a lot more, or it can be a lot less, or it can even be nothing; people actually do that sometimes.

[Which Tyler]

This is true.

Banning tipping isn't the answer though. A tip should be an option, but it should be a "hey, you deserve this!" thing, not a "here, custom dictates I give you this!" thing.

The default wage should be at least minimum shop wage. The default tip should be 0. However banning tipping takes away the possibility of making a little extra in exchange for going that extra mile.

Here in the UK, the average customer doesn't tip. When I work my ass off giving a party great service, bring you drinks outside on a hot day when there's officially no table service or make you cocktails despite the fact we technically don't sell them due to the time they take to make / type of bar we are the customers should have the option to thank me for it with a small tip though. Whether it's a "keep the change", a "buy one for yourself" or £2-3 "here, thanks!" on top of a round or a £5/£10/£20 at the end of the night. A regular not tipping will still be a priority, but a stranger slipping me a fiver is going to get their drinks delivered all night even if it leaves me doing ten things at once while one who doesn't will be told (truthfully) "Sorry, I'm too busy at the moment. You'll have to queue at the bar" if they try for a second round.

Tips should be a thank you for going above and beyond, basic wages for basic service should be baked into the prices and paid out by the employer.

This.

For me, when I'm eating out, if it's somewhere that shows me to my seat, takes my order etc, then I tip; if it's "find yourself a tale and order at the bar" then I don't; beyond the occasional "keep the change" if I'm paying by cash (exception university bar back in the day; where I was a genuine regular, and friend of those behind the bar - tips given in drinks for the end of their shift; or next time they're on the other side of the bar). Of course, that's all just a rule of thumb; if it's somewhere you order at the bar, but I've added to the order when the waiting staff were passing, or clearing up etc, then I'll tip.

Typically tip 10% for getting the service I expect, more for someone who goes above and beyond, less for someone surly and disinterested.

I will automatically half the tip in any place that requests it; if requested particularly annoyingly, I have been known to decline to tip when requested, and pointedly put £10 into any charity jar they had (I was already unhappy with the service, so being asked if I wanted to add a tip did not go down well). I've also been known to pay my compliments to the chef and ask for a drink to be left behind the bar for them; I got some frankly astounded looks though and have been told (by chefs) that it actually quite an insulting thing to do, as if I was surprised that the food was actually good.

I don't think I've ever tipped anyone outside of food/drink service, it simply wouldn't occur to me, and I'd be amazed if it occurred to them that they deserve one. If someone takes a "fuck you then" attitude to that, then they're perfectly welcome to not be paid for not doing thier job; they could also expect an official complaint registered with their boss.

[Maltaran]

truly how is a service charge attached to a meal as is common in europe any different than tipping?

It's not. However, service charges in my experience generally only get automatically added for large groups (i.e. 8 or more people), and if you've had terrible service you can complain and get it taken off.

[Sixshells]

truly how is a service charge attached to a meal as is common in europe any different than tipping?

The service charge is an integral part of the restaurant's expenses and as such is already integrated in the price listed on the menu. Usually, if the restaurant has a take-out option they will either show the sit-down price and the take-out price, or shave off a predetermined percentage from the bill. Of course in the end the customer is paying the staff, like she is paying for the food, the furniture, the rent and the cleaning, since the restaurant's income comes from paying customers. It is a difference in accounting and in how the money is delivered to the different parties. The US system has the owners dumping part of their wage responsibility onto the customers rather than having the customers pay directly a fair price for their meals (ie covering all the restaurant's expenses inluding staff wages) that would be listed upfront, which is where the problem and unfairness of the system reside.

Where I live tipping is not usually expected but I have left small tips when the waitstaff was nice above and beyond common courtesy and what kind of service could be expected in that kind of restaurant. I have also been in situations when if the meal had been really messy I and the party I was in left a tip, because of the extra cleanup.

[MercenaryChef]

Where I live

there you go.

you win the thread.

where i live it does not apply to where i live. i only ask that that you up hold our customs when here and i will promise to uphold yours when there.

europeans love to assume that which is going on in the states is wrong and a failure. have you ever considered that it works perfectly fine for us? i know...crazy.

[Sixshells]

there you go.

you win the thread.

where i live it does not apply to where i live. i only ask that that you up hold our customs when here and i will promise to uphold yours when there.

europeans love to assume that which is going on in the states is wrong and a failure. have you ever considered that it works perfectly fine for us? i know...crazy.

You asked what was the difference between the systems. If you didn't want an answer, you shouldn't have asked the question.

I promise, though, that if I ever go to the US and ever go to a restaurant there, I will educate myself on what is the appropriate tipping level and tip accordingly. I could hardly do otherwise after all the threads on the subject I have read on this forum. However, it will not stop me from thinking that it is not a great way from doing things, a bit archaic even, and generates unnecessary friction although it seems to kind of work in practice in spite of that.

[baxus]

europeans love to assume that which is going on in the states is wrong and a failure. have you ever considered that it works perfectly fine for us? i know...crazy.

americans love to assume that which is going on in europe is wrong and a failure. have you ever considered that it works perfectly fine for us? i know...crazy ;)

[MercenaryChef]

americans love to assume that which is going on in europe is wrong and a failure. have you ever considered that it works perfectly fine for us? i know...crazy ;)

actually i figure that which works well for you is great and good...for you.

it does not mean it works well for us.

americans who are fine with how things are done in their own country and that of others.

i know...crazy.

[MisterOJ]

Most of my family vacations these days are on cruise ships.

We started doing this just about 3-4 years ago. At the time (and for many years before that, from what I understand) the cruiselines paid their dining room servers, stewards and whatnot pennies and allowed them to make their money through tips. When you went on a cruise, you knew well ahead of time that you were expected to tip your steward $X per day and your servers $Y per day - as a minimum suggested tip. At the end of the cruise, you'd get little envelopes for each of the people you were supposed to tip and could either hand them over in person, or just leave them in your cabin or with the head waiter or whatever.

Well, nowadays just about every major cruise line has stopped doing that. Now tipping is automatically charged to your onboard account. You can go to guest services and have the amount charged to your account decreased or increased or taken off all together, but if you do nothing, the "minimum tip" is charged to you daily.

I prefer it that way, I wish restaurants on land would do it that way as well.

[Which Tyler]

there you go.

you win the thread.

where i live it does not apply to where i live. i only ask that that you up hold our customs when here and i will promise to uphold yours when there.

europeans love to assume that which is going on in the states is wrong and a failure. have you ever considered that it works perfectly fine for us? i know...crazy.

Do you often ask questions and then get shitty with people who answer it for answering it?

Seems a little unreasonable to me.

I don't think anyone has particularly said that the US system is wrong and a failure. Different, awkward, and counter-instinctive maybe; even "wrong" if pushed, and for a certain value of wrong; but I don't recall anyone saying it's a failure and needs to be changed. The article that inspired this thread is a piece by the British Broadcasting Corporation, talking about the tipping culture in Britain, so even that wasn't suggesting that the US system should change.

[DreamSongs]

On a related note, Strike

Does everyone deserve a living wage? Yes. What these workers fail to understand is that prices will have be raised to supply this wage. Business will slow down significantly and even more people will become unemployed.

[Seli]

actually it rarely if ever goes into the kitchen. almost 20 years in the business and i have only been two places that tips went to the kitchen.

...

truly how is a service charge attached to a meal as is common in europe any different than tipping?

Note: all for the Netherlands, and probably not universal for the EU.

I did some quick checking in local sites, and it seems over here in the Netherlands at least tip sharing/pooling is relatively normal, while not universal.

Service Charges separate from the listed price probably still exist, especially for groups. But usually the price on the menu includes VAT (equivalent) and service. I cannot remember encountering separate service charges myself, but don't tend to eat out high market or often. Of course they generally make you pay even for tap water over here...

[Black Walder]

I don't understand tipping (i.e. a service charge) for something that is already just a service, like a taxi. If I'm paying a fare in order to receive a service and nothing else, then by definition the fare already is the service charge. If you don't think the fare is high enough to cover the service offered then why not just raise the fare?

It's illegal here. The government hasn't given us a meter raise in years.

[Castel]

truly how is a service charge attached to a meal as is common in europe any different than tipping?

It's guaranteeing the worker's salary and isn't sneakily passing off extra costs as optional gratuities.

[Black Walder]

[snip] I don't think I've ever tipped anyone outside of food/drink service, it simply wouldn't occur to me, and I'd be amazed if it occurred to them that they deserve one. If someone takes a "fuck you then" attitude to that, then they're perfectly welcome to not be paid for not doing thier job; they could also expect an official complaint registered with their boss.

See, this is what I'm talking about with the whole, "taxi drivers are not your helpless victims like the rest of the service industry," thing. I find it to be a common attitude that the service industry is here to kiss ass and smile when they get stiffed from people who habitually mistreat servers, which swiftly transitions to abject shock when they find out that I'm an independent contractor who doesn't have to take their shit (more than once - as I said, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt). This sort of people reserve the "official complaint to the boss" as the game-ending threat that trumps all real debate when the victim is a poor waitress who can't afford to be fired. The people who act this way are, IMHO, total dicks.

I've had "official complaints" registered with the company that I contract with more times than I can count over the years, for everything ranging from a refusal to go through the drive-through at Taco Bell to beating the living shit out of the customer, and as long as the cops don't get involved they don't care at all because their money comes from me, not you.

[Castel]

See, this is what I'm talking about with the whole, "taxi drivers are not your helpless victims like the rest of the service industry," thing. I find it to be a common attitude that the service industry is here to kiss ass and smile when they get stiffed from people who habitually mistreat servers, which swiftly transitions to abject shock when they find out that I'm an independent contractor who doesn't have to take their shit (more than once - as I said, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt). This sort of people reserve the "official complaint to the boss" as the game-ending threat that trumps all real debate when the victim is a poor waitress who can't afford to be fired. The people who act this way are, IMHO, total dicks.

I've had "official complaints" registered with the company that I contract with more times than I can count over the years, for everything ranging from a refusal to go through the drive-through at Taco Bell to beating the living shit out of the customer, and as long as the cops don't get involved they don't care at all because their money comes from me, not you.

It doesn't really help that you wrote "if you don't tip FUCK YOU". I know that you meant "I'm not dealing with you again, fuck off" but if I took it literally I'd report you to your boss too.