Jump to content

Should tipping be banned?


Maltaran

Recommended Posts

It doesn't really help that you wrote "if you don't tip FUCK YOU". I know that you meant "I'm not dealing with you again, fuck off" but if I took it literally I'd report you to your boss too.

That's fair. It wouldn't accomplish anything, but I get where you're coming from if that was a literal quote to the customer's face rather than a description of my general ethos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

on serving...it is not as simple as dropping off food, taking an order, etc. it is in a diner or something like that. but, at it's highest end it takes immense skill, training, dedication and devotion. i have eaten at three of the top ten restaurants in the united states. the service was amazing. these people are not doing these jobs until their acting career takes off. this is what they do. they are fantastic at it. they get paid. are they overpaid for what they do? that it a matter of perspective i suppose.

I'm aware. Serving done at a high level is very attentive. I still rarely see the justification of $50 on a $300 meal, which is about what I'd tip.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See, this is what I'm talking about with the whole, "taxi drivers are not your helpless victims like the rest of the service industry," thing. I find it to be a common attitude that the service industry is here to kiss ass and smile when they get stiffed from people who habitually mistreat servers, which swiftly transitions to abject shock when they find out that I'm an independent contractor who doesn't have to take their shit (more than once - as I said, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt). This sort of people reserve the "official complaint to the boss" as the game-ending threat that trumps all real debate when the victim is a poor waitress who can't afford to be fired. The people who act this way are, IMHO, total dicks.

I've had "official complaints" registered with the company that I contract with more times than I can count over the years, for everything ranging from a refusal to go through the drive-through at Taco Bell to beating the living shit out of the customer, and as long as the cops don't get involved they don't care at all because their money comes from me, not you.

I never knew that taxi drivers considered themselves helpless victims of... anything much; nor indeed any other profession. I've learned something new today.

"I find it to be a common attitude that the service industry is here to kiss ass and smile when they get stiffed from people who habitually mistreat servers" some people are just twats.

"I'm an independent contractor who doesn't have to take their shit" Well of course not; no-one has to take other people's shit - regardless of whether they're an independent contractor or not.

Do people really use "official complaint to the boss" as the game-ending threat that trumps all real debate? if so, then some people are twats; and I doubt any boss would take the side of an unreasonable customer over a valued employee. An unvalued employee who regularly receives complaints on the other hand... probably deserves to be fired.

"to beating the living shit out of the customer," the you should be in jail, not bragging on an internet forum; going "oh poor little me; people actually expect me to do the job they've paid me to do; how mean of them to not realise that I'm the best, and they should pay me extra just because I'm great".

Quite honestly, it sounds like you're just one of those twats you keep complaining about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it's funny how these topics keep coming up.

Anyway, why do we single out some professions and not others? why doesn't a shop assistant get tips for good service (bringing you a different size item to the changing room, counseling on what colour you look better in etc). Is that not a service?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it's funny how these topics keep coming up.

Anyway, why do we single out some professions and not others? why doesn't a shop assistant get tips for good service (bringing you a different size item to the changing room, counseling on what colour you look better in etc). Is that not a service?

Depending on the store, I think they're incentive is commission on the sale. Essentially its the culture. We tip our waiters and bartenders because they've made the dining out experience enjoyable. I suppose if you wanted to tip the shopkeeper who helped you find the perfect set of clothes, or the Best Buy salesman who helped you find the best television, or the concierge who helped you score some rock while you were on that business trip in Atlanta, you are more than welcome to. There might not be a line for it on the bill, but still, feel free.

I'm slightly confused by some of the posts here. Some people don't like the idea of having to tip, but they'd be happy if they just put a standard fifteen percent service charge on the bill? Or raise the food costs so the servers can get paid better? Isn't that sort of six of one, half dozen of the other?

But mostly, its the people who are bitching about having to tip that are baffling me. You don't have to. It is (barring the whole parties of six or more thing) an optional method of rewarding your server. You can't justify adding a fifty dollar tip to a three hundred dollar check? Don't fucking do it then. It is not mandatory. No one is forcing you. And no decent server is going to hassle you for it. This "social obligation" thing is bullshit. If you're too concerned about the servers and your friends thinking you're a tight-fisted dick, that's your problem and is something you really ought to get over.

Sort of an afterthought, on the subject of tipping your bartender (since I've seen posts mentioning it): the tip isn't really because we saved you the trouble of chipping your fingernail while opening up your can of PBR or the effort of pulling a tap forward for ten seconds. The tips, at least at the restaurant I work at, generally are given because of advice on our beer and liquor selection, our ability to remember what the hell each of the thirty people crowding the bar are drinking, making your overly-complicated mixed drinks quickly without sacrificing quality, and overall providing you with a pleasant experience so you don't walk out at the end of the night in a bad mood. Now, if you think all those things are just part of our job and do not merit anything extra, that's fine, man. Don't leave a tip. Anybody worth their salt isn't going to accost you for it, and at worst, they might think you're a bit stingy for a second, maybe down on your luck a bit, and then they'll get on with the rest of their shift and won't give you a second thought. As long as you treat us like human beings and just generally don't act like a dick, we won't think poorly of you, and we won't short you on quality of service, no matter what you tip.

Granted, there are plenty of servers and bartenders who can be little shits when it comes to a bad tip. I'm not speaking for them. They piss me off just as much as they do you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

see, this is the whole problem with tipping, i should get excellent service regardless. a russian oil tycoon should not get better service than i do just because of their ability to throw money around willy nilly.

i suppose tipping does mean that bar service is one industry where women make more than men, as long as they don't mind dressing up and pandering to gross middle aged sleaze bags.

Then no-one gets drinks outside.

See, the thing is, if I'm free / not busy, I happily run drinks for anyone. Preference will go to regular customers, then people who have tipped me, then people who ask, then finally people who's drinks just look a bit empty. I'll offer.

If I'm really busy, no-one is getting drinks brought to them. There's a big queue at the bar for a reason, and I have ten million things that need doing to make sure those drinks carry on appearing. I have food to take out, plates to clear, glasses to collect. I'm helping out the barbacks and the kitchen and whoever else needs it.

If it's somewhere in between and I have a chance to do stuff for people, but not much and it is going to inconvinience me / make my job harder / make me run around rather than taking 5 in the back room and actually catching my breath... Well, if you aren't a regular and/or tipping me, I'm going to choose to take that moment to myself rather than offering you a drink.

Also, the oil tycoon won't necessarily be served ahead of you. If you are drinking in the City in an expensive riverside bar, and want drinks brought outside when there's no table service, then telling me to "keep the change" rather than have me count that £1,05 out for you is going to put you in my good books, and mean I'll try to look out for you.

I'd never not do my job because someone doesn't tip. However its up to me when and with who I go the extra mile and go beyond what I'm supposed to do. That might mean drinks outside on a hot day when the bar queue is half hour long and you can't be arsed to move. That might mean me finding out where exactly Downtown Abbey was filmed and getting you directions so you can go visit it tomorrow. That might mean making your pregnant girlfriend a crushed fruit non alcoholic cocktail even though it means a couple of minutes of cleaning the equipment and it's not something we usually offer, so I'll probably be giving away free or charging as an orange juice anyway. I physically can't take the time to do that for every customer. And if I tried to do it for as many customers as I could, it'd mean I'd never have any recovery time myself and would probably collapse six hours into a shift. So I have to pick and choose who I help out.

Would you also be upset to find out the Virgin Media guy also hung someone's flatscreen TV for them when he did their second box install, because he remembered them giving him a fiver "for a drink" when he installed the main box? Does that mean he should have to hang your TV for you? No, because it was a personal favour, going above and beyond his job. So are the things I'd reserve for a regular, a tipper or someone who I feel sorry for. I don't let the standard, basic services I'm paid to provide suffer regardless of how you treat me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm slightly confused by some of the posts here. Some people don't like the idea of having to tip, but they'd be happy if they just put a standard fifteen percent service charge on the bill? Or raise the food costs so the servers can get paid better? Isn't that sort of six of one, half dozen of the other?

Not really, as it's not tipping itself that is the issue, but transparency. The price on the price list should reflect the actual cost for the customer without having to apply a calculator and loosely defined social rules. (Service charges usually only applies to larger parties, so listing a price including service charges just gets cumbersome.)

I understand that in the US it's a fear that there's an decrease in sales if the price is listed as 4.52 instead of 3.45 plus 14 % tax and 15 % to cover the waiter., but I believe this fear is unfounded. Of course, it should be clear on the menu that this is included in the price,

I don't think that many object to tipping when it is for service beyond "normal level".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm slightly confused by some of the posts here. Some people don't like the idea of having to tip, but they'd be happy if they just put a standard fifteen percent service charge on the bill? Or raise the food costs so the servers can get paid better? Isn't that sort of six of one, half dozen of the other?

In cost terms, yes. But at least a rise in menu prices (or a compulsory service charge) would be consistent. Right now, it seems, in the US the customer is expected to pay the entirety of the servers' wages on top of what the menu says they should pay for their meals. I don't really see why that's a better system, or any fairer, than just paying for the whole experience in one go and for management to pay the servers an actual living wage. All it does is shift the onus of responsibility for maintaining the serving staff onto the customer rather than the employer, which seems to me to be the wrong way round. I also find it difficult to understand why there should be some kind of special case made for serving staff at restaurants. Or for that matter why you need to tip a taxi driver for the service you're already paying him for, assuming it isn't a special case.

There are some cultures where they don't tip - there are some restaurants that serve the food of such cultures over here at least where they expressly ask you not to tip - and they seem to get along fine.

But mostly, its the people who are bitching about having to tip that are baffling me. You don't have to. It is (barring the whole parties of six or more thing) an optional method of rewarding your server. You can't justify adding a fifty dollar tip to a three hundred dollar check? Don't fucking do it then. It is not mandatory. No one is forcing you. And no decent server is going to hassle you for it. This "social obligation" thing is bullshit. If you're too concerned about the servers and your friends thinking you're a tight-fisted dick, that's your problem and is something you really ought to get over.

If you want to eat in that restaurant again, you need to leave a tip. If you're aware of the general social situation, you need to leave a tip; it's not just whether your friends think you're a tight-wad, it's on your conscience as well. But I don't see why it should be your job to make up for the way the labour laws and tight-fisted management conspire to pay their hardworking staff a net salary of bupkiss and why you're the one who ends up feeling guilty if you don't.

In fact, though, tipping doesn't bother me that much, but then the UK isn't a particularly tip-heavy society and I'm pretty sure (confirmation would be nice) serving staff here have to be paid at least a minimum wage whether they get tipped or not. I will tip, and it annoys me when I'm out with people who don't, because either I have to shell out more or get tarred with the same under-tipping brush as them. But when I think about it logically rather than just "this is what we do" it makes no sense, and I can completely understand those people who resent the system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's the thing about the service industry.... A waiter, bartender etc will take your order, get your food, be polite, etc... but they are not your personal bitch for the duration of your meal. I've seen people treat wait staff like their last name was Lannister, and demand servitude, NOT service.

I gotta tell all of you non-tippers out there... you're doing *yourselves* a disservice. We try to be generous with as many people as we can, from our garbage men and post man to our pizza guy. We tip well, and although I don;t believe in Karma, generosity is an investment in one's own self, and the climate of their surroundings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would you also be upset to find out the Virgin Media guy also hung someone's flatscreen TV for them when he did their second box install, because he remembered them giving him a fiver "for a drink" when he installed the main box? Does that mean he should have to hang your TV for you? No, because it was a personal favour, going above and beyond his job. So are the things I'd reserve for a regular, a tipper or someone who I feel sorry for. I don't let the standard, basic services I'm paid to provide suffer regardless of how you treat me.

In that circumstance the tip sounds more like a bribe, just saying. Having the hanging of the tv offered as a paid option is much more transparent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As an American, I would like to apologize to all the non-Americans for the cultural bullying practice of outrageous mandatory tipping and the snide and childish remarks here about how one is a "cheapskate" or "how dare you to disagree when you're visiting our country" .............. suffice to say that they don't speak for all Americans and it's perfectly ok not to conform to such cultural bullying when you're visiting here. I think that if you find the mandatory tipping percentage to be outrageous, you should only tip as much as you want to and you have every right to challenge it and hopefully such practice will be eventually phase out.

I think that the important thing is to be courteous to your service providers and always thank them for the services provided.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's the thing about the service industry.... A waiter, bartender etc will take your order, get your food, be polite, etc... but they are not your personal bitch for the duration of your meal. I've seen people treat wait staff like their last name was Lannister, and demand servitude, NOT service.

I gotta tell all of you non-tippers out there... you're doing *yourselves* a disservice. We try to be generous with as many people as we can, from our garbage men and post man to our pizza guy. We tip well, and although I don;t believe in Karma, generosity is an investment in one's own self, and the climate of their surroundings.

what has the fact that some people are twats got to do with tipping? Yes, a small number of people don't know the difference between a waiter and a slave, that's the case regardless of tipping, though I rather suspect that it's less frequent in non-tipping cultures.

What goes around comes around, I don't tip in general, and I don't expect tips in return. Equally, I'm happy to compliment someone on doing a good job, and occasionally get the same back when I do a good job - it's called being a reasonably nice person, and absolutely nothing to do with a tipping culture

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never knew that taxi drivers considered themselves helpless victims of... anything much [snip]

We don't. That's my point.

"I find it to be a common attitude that the service industry is here to kiss ass and smile when they get stiffed from people who habitually mistreat servers" some people are just twats.

Agreed.

Do people really use "official complaint to the boss" as the game-ending threat that trumps all real debate? if so, then some people are twats; and I doubt any boss would take the side of an unreasonable customer over a valued employee.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... whew. I needed that, thanks. ;)

"to beating the living shit out of the customer," the you should be in jail, not bragging on an internet forum;

The guy I'm thinking of in that anecdote was reluctant to contact the authorities because I whipped his ass to make him stop punching his girlfriend in my cab. Yes, that guy actually tried to (anonymously) complain about me to the company.

going "oh poor little me; people actually expect me to do the job they've paid me to do; how mean of them to not realise that I'm the best, and they should pay me extra just because I'm great".

I explained what I do above and beyond standard service in a previous post.

Quite honestly, it sounds like you're just one of those twats you keep complaining about.

Back at'cha, sunshine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What about people who treat the waiting staff like crap, then leave a large tip to "make up for it"? The two are not mutually exclusive.

I would like to think I've always treated waiting staff with respect, no matter how poor the service or how large a tip I left. If I'm being judged solely on the depth of my pockets when it comes to the tip, I might as well get value for money and torment them all evening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What about people who treat the waiting staff like crap, then leave a large tip to "make up for it"? The two are not mutually exclusive.

Mixed feelings. A large tip plus verbal apology for being an ass would be exponentially better.

I would like to think I've always treated waiting staff with respect, no matter how poor the service or how large a tip I left. If I'm being judged solely on the depth of my pockets when it comes to the tip, I might as well get value for money and torment them all evening.

It's not the depth of your pockets that concerns me, it's your willingness to reach into them. The best tippers are rarely wealthy, and the wealthy rarely tip well. If somebody brings up how much money they have or claims that they tip well, it is almost always a sign that I'm about to get stiffed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, that's the thing. I feel like I'm getting mixed messages. On the one hand, it's "treat serving staff with respect; their job is hard." I'm fully on board with that. I try to treat everyone with respect anyway.

But I don't see how that necessarily translates to "pay them". If I stop to give a tourist directions in the street, a sincere thank you is appreciated. If he tried to pay me, I'd be insulted.

I feel like the respect angle is a red herring. The customer should treat serving staff with respect regardless of any tipping policy. It doesn't mean that the customer should be solely responsible - on a discretionary basis - for paying their wages. And if it's not discretionary, why not just stick it on the bill?

As has been mentioned above (and not really addressed) there seems to be no rhyme or reason to which jobs get tipped and which don't. Why is it that it's almost mandatory to tip serving staff, but in the case of some professionals it's actually illegal for them to accept one? They're both ultimately in service positions. At least in the UK it's almost entirely confined to restaurants and the odd bar/pub, so although it still doesn't really hold up to close scrutiny at least the circumstances in which you encounter it can be more easily controlled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What about people who treat the waiting staff like crap, then leave a large tip to "make up for it"? The two are not mutually exclusive.

A large tip does not excuse one acting like an insufferable twat. Its a good point, though. The douchiest fuckers do oftentimes leave pretty good tips. In my experience, the mentality and the coinpurse go hand in hand.

I would like to think I've always treated waiting staff with respect, no matter how poor the service or how large a tip I left. If I'm being judged solely on the depth of my pockets when it comes to the tip, I might as well get value for money and torment them all evening.

Treating us with respect is the key here. That goes farther in getting you good service than a big tip. If a patron is pleasant and decent to me, I will go the extra mile for them. I don't give a shit if they only tip ten percent, or don't tip at all. If you feel like you're decent to the servers and they are giving you sub-standard service because of a short tip, they're shit at their jobs.

I feel like the respect angle is a red herring. The customer should treat serving staff with respect regardless of any tipping policy. It doesn't mean that the customer should be solely responsible - on a discretionary basis - for paying their wages. And if it's not discretionary, why not just stick it on the bill?

It is discretionary. Thats the point of it. But if you feel like it makes it easier, just ask the server to tack fifteen percent on the bill for you, or write what fifteen percent or whatever the arbitrary percentage would be at the bottom (now more and more common when receipts are printed). There's no established tipping policy you have to follow, so make your own.

As has been mentioned above (and not really addressed) there seems to be no rhyme or reason to which jobs get tipped and which don't. Why is it that it's almost mandatory to tip serving staff, but in the case of some professionals it's actually illegal for them to accept one? They're both ultimately in service positions. At least in the UK it's almost entirely confined to restaurants and the odd bar/pub, so although it still doesn't really hold up to close scrutiny at least the circumstances in which you encounter it can be more easily controlled.

Culture, essentially. I'm no historian on the art of tipping, but my best guess is that tipping evolved as a way of ensuring preferential treatment or service at the bar or restaurant. As wage laws passed ensuring minimum wage, this was taken into account, so restauranteurs and barowners were able to pay their staff low wages because they're giving them the chance to earn the rest of them straight from the consumer themselves. Now its the norm, in the States at least. As to rhyme or reason...well, outside of the restaurant industry, you still have the ability to tip whoever you want. They might not accept it, but the options there. Tattoo artists, baristas, the cable-guy, the bellhop, the prostitute, the delivery driver, the bag boy who brings out your groceries, the dude washing your car, and so on and so forth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Culture, essentially. I'm no historian on the art of tipping, but my best guess is that tipping evolved as a way of ensuring preferential treatment or service at the bar or restaurant. As wage laws passed ensuring minimum wage, this was taken into account, so restauranteurs and barowners were able to pay their staff low wages because they're giving them the chance to earn the rest of them straight from the consumer themselves. Now its the norm, in the States at least. As to rhyme or reason...well, outside of the restaurant industry, you still have the ability to tip whoever you want. They might not accept it, but the options there. Tattoo artists, baristas, the cable-guy, the bellhop, the prostitute, the delivery driver, the bag boy who brings out your groceries, the dude washing your car, and so on and so forth.

Yeah; obviously I'm coming at this from a non-American angle. It seems like it's only relatively recently (possibly an American influence) that tipping has even become an overt thing in bars and pubs: previously if you wanted to reward the barman you'd add "one for yourself" to the round. Tipping outside the food and drink industry is still very uncommon, in my experience at least. But it's one of those areas that seems to be becoming a minefield. Judging just from this thread, people feel very strongly that they should be tipped; on the other hand, there are a lot of people who are very awkward about that sort of thing and wouldn't feel comfortable accepting a tip, let alone offering one and being turned down. I'd be mortified for the rest of the day!

I just don't feel like an American tipping culture is a positive direction to be heading in. Maybe it works over there (although, again, on the evidence of the thread, it seems there are a fair few glitches in the system) but it's not something I really want to see here. I'd rather just that everyone was paid an appropriate wage in the first place, did their jobs properly, and then I don't have to worry about it every time I use a service.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is interesting to see the variations in "tipping culture".

North Carolina is not a land of fine tippers, I can promise you. Despite this and the wait staff's knowledge that they will likely be under tipped, it is rare that you receive bad service.

On the other end of the spectrum, I can tell you that when I still lived in South Florida, a family friend worked in the Cheesecake Factory in Boca Raton off of Glades Rd. by the Town Center. His annual income was somewhere in the ballpark of 90 to 100,000 dollars. That is roughly double what a teacher makes in Florida with a Master's degree and 5 to 10 years of experience. Now this little anecdote is not at all indicative of tipping across the board, but forgive me for being both shocked and envious. He's great at what he does, but $100,000 dollar great? No way.

Anywho, I will just keep chugging along tipping 15% wherever necessary, ruing those days when I am not sure I am supposed to tip.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...