Should tipping be banned?

[The Anti-Targ]

Pay workers a reasonable minimum wage and put it on the bill. It might even end up being cheaper than this vague system where you most likely end up over-paying because you want to be generous.

Tipping isn't banned here, service staff are paid a straight wage, we have a minimum wage, and the service staff staff wages are included within the costs of the menu items / room rates etc so there are no service charges on bills.

There is no tipping culture here, and I find the hand out expectation of a tip in other countries quite uncomfortable. It's not necessary for tips to be an important part of a person's income, as evidenced by the fact that in countries like mine people are able to live off the standard wages for service staff.

I prefer tipping to be not part of the culture, but I don't think tipping should be banned per se. Though if banning is what it takes to make the cultural change then so be it.

[Seli]

An interesting series of post of someone who owned a non-tip restaurant in San Diego for some time. It explains some of the weird legal rules behind regional differences in US tipping, and the interpretation of the author of what tipping does to a restaurant.

From his second post:

....

The first is that, for the most part, the restaurant industry operates on very slim margins. There are some restaurants that are very profitable, but the vast majority are not. I’ve read that the average profit for a restaurant is 4% of its revenue, and in my experience most independent restaurants do not have any real profit at all. More typically the owner is able to pay herself for her work, and that’s about it. This fact is important because it means that, for most jobs in the restaurant industry, the wage paid by the restaurant comes from a limited pool, and there is not a lot of flexibility in the size of the pool — if one job gets a $2/hour raise, that most likely means that another job will have its wage reduced by $2/hour.

Theoretically, it seems like there would be ways to free up more money for labor, and there are some methods that help. In the end, though, restaurant-going is so prevelant that the expectations of the market — for price, quality, ambience, and so forth — are pretty well set in every dimension. And the cost of meeting those expectations is pretty well set, too. So the business model for most restaurants, and what they pay for each job, is tightly constrained.

...

In some states (big East Coast restaurant states come to mind, like New York), the government balances this situation by offering what is called a “tip credit”. The tip credit allows restaurants to pay their front-of-house employees less than minimum wage (usually about $5/hr less), if tips will make up the difference. In the example above, the servers in a “tip credit” system would most likely end up making about $21/hour and, cooks about $12/hour, and the dishwasher still about $8/hour. To someone like me who puts a lot of demands on his kitchen, this distribution still feels inequitable — but it’s a lot closer to fair. While the “tip credit” is a blunt instrument, it does address the wage inequity problem enough to keep the tipping system at least somewhat viable.

Now, in California and several other states, the “tip credit” is not allowed, and the restauranteur has fewer options. The recourse most commonly used in these states is the “tipout”. Here the servers just give a portion of their tips to the kitchen, usually as part of a cultural expectation created within the restaurant. ...

Post 1, post 2, post 3, post 4, post 5

via Tobias Buckell http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2013/08/11/a-must-read-the-tipless-restaurant/

[Black Walder]

An interesting series of post of someone who owned a non-tip restaurant in San Diego for some time. It explains some of the weird legal rules behind regional differences in US tipping, and the interpretation of the author of what tipping does to a restaurant.

Interesting read; thanks for sharing. My initial reaction was, of course, "Rich guy who owns a service business hates tipping! In other news: Rain is wet!" but he does have some points that seem valid to the (high-end) restaurant industry.

I can think of a few ways in which these observations do not apply to the on-demand personal transportation industry, and I'm rather dubious that they would hold true in low-end food service, either. For starters, as a cab driver, I can only serve one "customer" at a time (there may be multiple people in the cab, but it's one trip and I don't have the option of decreasing service to squeeze in "extra tables"), and the amount that I am allowed to officially charge is rigidly fixed by the government (and hasn't increased in more than five years). I am, therefore, highly incentivized to maximize my earnings on every trip that I do. The company doesn't care if I get repeat business - I am their repeat business, because their money comes from me. So everything that I do well at my job, I do well specifically for bigger tips, whether in the short term (because I get paid more for this ride) or the long term (because I impress somebody who tips well and they begin to call me directly for service, meaning that I get tipped well more frequently). Eliminating tips from my business would not eliminate the incestuous culture of coercion between the drivers and the "back of the house," because I would still want my cab back from the shop as quickly as possible and the guys who are willing to bribe dispatch will still be willing to bribe dispatch. Adding a surcharge to the fare to compensate me for a lack of tipping (if it was legal, which it's not) would kill the company, because cab rides are a commodity and people who're already willing to pay more at the gate for higher quality are riding around in hired towncars, party buses, and limousines.

[Seli]

Interesting read; thanks for sharing. My initial reaction was, of course, "Rich guy who owns a service business hates tipping! In other news: Rain is wet!" but he does have some points that seem valid to the (high-end) restaurant industry.

...

You're welcome. I know part of why I found these pieces interesting is that they conform to my biases. So thank you for broadening the discussion, and pointing to areas where the argument made does not fit quite as well.

[kairparavel]

I feel like a lot of that had been covered a few times by MC. But confirmation from other sources is good.

[naz]

That was a great read, Seli. Very illuminating and also conforming to my own biases. And I also agree with BW to an extent that it may not apply to non-food industries.

[Seli]

I feel like a lot of that had been covered a few times by MC. But confirmation from other sources is good.

A lot of it probably has. And likely more than I remember :(.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Ok it's confessional time; I have worked as a server for more than a few years and in different regions of the US as well as high class to lower class restaurants. Where I am now 18% is the minimum tip expected, but this percentage does depend on location and it would only be higher and never lower than that for the US. As the federal minimum wage raises that will reflect in the percentages expected for your area. Now the federal minimum wage for servers is $2.13 per hour, but individual states can and have raised that, and it does vary, but some are still at $2.13, plus almost all corporate restaurants will not offer any raises to servers.

Also almost all servers do have to "tip out", in some way, other employees in other positions that provide some type of service to the servers, as in bartenders, hosts and bussers. But a smart server will give these coworkers extra plus give some to the cooks as well. And servers are expected to make and claim for taxes a certain percentage from their sales and if you do not meet that expected standard, and definitely if your employer has to "make up" the difference for the regular federal minimum wage (pay you more), then they can say you are not a good enough server to work there so see ya. And if they work in an area dependent on international tourism they will not be tipped properly because tipping is not a common custom the guests are always aware of.

As an aside it really can and does take several years to become an exceptional server, and it's a lot more than just taking food to a table, so try to be understanding when your server is obviously newer or even when your server is very busy, not everyone can be exceptional to whatever your personal standards may be. That's really what makes a great server, who can make good money, is one that knows how to read all of these different people with their different quirks so they can head off problems before they even begin. And sometimes people just have a bad day, so guess what, servers are people too.

Right now I work in the Midwest area of the US, at a medium class restaurant, and my hourly wage is $2.13 on the hour with no opportunity for any raises except for with tips. I also have to "tip out" 2% of my sales to other positions plus I have to claim at least 15% of my sales that will be taxed and paid from my hourly wage. So if the customers, for whatever reason, do not tip properly it could work out to where I actually paid them to come eat while I served them, by the time you factor in the percentages I have to pay. Now I can make the money I "needed" to make because others valued my service and tipped extra, but why should that have to make up for someone else when that person wanted me to have more?

Trust me dealing with the public like this can be difficult at best because people are crazy, especially with food, and any silly or small thing that had nothing to do with my service, or even things that should not be held against me because they have unrealistic expectations, effect what they "think" they can tip me. You know what, I earned it and it's money that you owe me for a provided service and you should give it to me, period. I do not, let's say, stay at the hospital and say I did not like my attending nurse, for whatever multitude of crazy reasons, so I want so much money taken off my bill and the hospital can dock the pay of the nurse... so why should a nurse be able to dock my pay because they are unusual or they have their own personal issues?

On topic now: should tipping be banned? Well, I can see some issues where I think it could at least double the prices in restaurants maybe. Sometimes being a great server is not enough so servers also try to take as many tables as they can handle, and I guarantee you that absolutely no server would work that hard, practically killing themselves, for a standard wage. So not only would the owners have to pay higher wages but they would definitely have to provide more employees. And let's not forget the other positions that do not get a proper wage and they are supplemented by the servers giving a percentage from their sales, because the owners would also be required to raise their wages and most likely hire more employees for those positions as well. Because host and bussers know the harder they work with less coworkers to share/split their "tips" with the better, so they will not work so hard with less help without that "tip" incentive. This is really just the tip of the ice burg...

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I'll bet the farm if tipping goes away, free drink refills and free dinner rolls will go with it

[ThinkerX]

As the federal minimum wage raises that will reflect in the percentages expected for your area. Now the federal minimum wage for servers is $2.13 per hour, but individual states can and have raised that, and it does vary, but some are still at $2.13, plus almost all corporate restaurants will not offer any raises to servers.

Bit different in my frequently frozen corner of the world. Resteraunt depending, it usually starts at *actual* minimum wage plus tips ($7.50 if memory serves). Spend enough time there, and raises happen.

I also have to "tip out" 2% of my sales to other positions plus I have to claim at least 15% of my sales that will be taxed and paid from my hourly wage.

Three approaches hereabouts:

1) Server keeps all the tips;

2) All the tips get put in a pot and divided evenly end of shift (or next day);

3) Newer employees (servers) give most of their tips to senior servers, some of which goes to cooks, ect.

The places I've been at have been option 1 - though I often gave the cooks a ten spot before leaving. (I was pizza delivery).

Between tips and delivery fee, I expected to make $40 - $60 a night in greenbacks, double that on Fridays and Saturdays (less than half as much if I got stuck with a day shift).

The in house waitresses...forty bucks was a dang good night for them, usually a little over half that, which mostly got spent on smokes. Then again, they got raises to their base pay, which I didn't.

[Black Walder]

At the high-end restaurant that I once worked at as a bartender, tipping culture definitely extended to the "back of the house" in the manner of the "shadow industry" that Seli's article described. I most definitely made drinks (especially complicated cocktails requiring actual skill) faster and with more liquor for the girls who threw me a buck or two for it, and they more than made up for it on their end from the patrons who appreciated such things. I can attest to both the manner in which it became the core of my motivation, and the manner in which it probably degraded the quality of the business, overall.

On the low end, on the other hand, I doubt it really makes a difference. Demand is low, because nobody really expects rapid awesome food at Denny's. The back of the house does their job adequately, or gets fired.

With Regard to the Dishwashers mentioned in the article: Speaking as somebody who has worked as a dishwasher, fuck dishwashers. If you have no job skills at all, you are lucky to make $8/hour (I certainly didn't).

[Elaena Targaryen]

Bit different in my frequently frozen corner of the world. Resteraunt depending, it usually starts at *actual* minimum wage plus tips ($7.50 if memory serves). Spend enough time there, and raises happen.

Yea like I said it does vary by state, this link from the US Department of Labor details it

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

Three approaches hereabouts:

1) Server keeps all the tips;

2) All the tips get put in a pot and divided evenly end of shift (or next day);

3) Newer employees (servers) give most of their tips to senior servers, some of which goes to cooks, ect.

The places I've been at have been option 1 - though I often gave the cooks a ten spot before leaving. (I was pizza delivery).

Between tips and delivery fee, I expected to make $40 - $60 a night in greenbacks, double that on Fridays and Saturdays (less than half as much if I got stuck with a day shift).

The in house waitresses...forty bucks was a dang good night for them, usually a little over half that, which mostly got spent on smokes. Then again, they got raises to their base pay, which I didn't.

Well I've never worked in those type of places but I think places that provide delivery pay more just about everywhere because you just will not make the same kind of money typically. Also I've heard buffet places are similar in that they pay a higher wage and pool their tips. (pooling tips is where it all gets put in a pot and divided evenly)

This "sharing tips", of any kind, would never ever work in most places I've worked in or heard of. We all come in and leave at different times, some are capable of taking more tables, you can wait on large parties that tip really well and so on, the major majority of the time you will not be doing equal work like you would at a place that offers delivery or provides a buffet. If this was a newly enforced rule for all servers no one would believe everyone put all of the money in the pot because of some would think they earned more so they would keep it and there are several who would be just plain thieves that would lie and keep extra money too, there is no way to prove the servers are honest with no way to hold them accountable, so other would keep money because they suspect others are... it would be a very ugly situation... with servers that earn $2.13 an hour it's not possible.

[Arbor Gold]

This is the tipping thread that came up in a search, so I'm bumping it to ask a specific question.

I frequently go to a local craft cocktail bar where drinks cost ~$12 each. One of the bartenders (who I want to bang) has, the past two times I've been there, charged me $0 for 4 drinks.

What is the appropriate tip? I've given him $25 cash but I don't know if that's enough.

[Tears of Lys]

This is the tipping thread that came up in a search, so I'm bumping it to ask a specific question.

I frequently go to a local craft cocktail bar where drinks cost ~$12 each. One of the bartenders (who I want to bang) has, the past two times I've been there, charged me $0 for 4 drinks.

What is the appropriate tip? I've given him $25 cash but I don't know if that's enough.

No, it's not enough. I can think of a better way to show your appreciation, as I'm sure you can too. :leer:

That's a win-win! :P

[Astromech]

This is the tipping thread that came up in a search, so I'm bumping it to ask a specific question.

I frequently go to a local craft cocktail bar where drinks cost ~$12 each. One of the bartenders (who I want to bang) has, the past two times I've been there, charged me $0 for 4 drinks.

What is the appropriate tip? I've given him $25 cash but I don't know if that's enough.

 You answered your own question :)

[Arbor Gold]

No, it's not enough. I can think of a better way to show your appreciation, as I'm sure you can too. :leer:

That's a win-win! :P

I feel like I've made it clear that I would bang him but I think he's just in it for the cash.

[Arbor Gold]

 You answered your own question :)

Omg hang on a sec. This whole time, I've been waiting for him to make a move. Are you saying this is it?

[MercenaryChef]

This is the tipping thread that came up in a search, so I'm bumping it to ask a specific question.

I frequently go to a local craft cocktail bar where drinks cost ~$12 each. One of the bartenders (who I want to bang) has, the past two times I've been there, charged me $0 for 4 drinks.

What is the appropriate tip? I've given him $25 cash but I don't know if that's enough.

What does your receipt say? I drink at a few establishments that I get either 50% off or a couple rounds comped. It states as much on my bill. Friends and family discount or something of the sort. I then tip on the amount sans discount plus a bit. One or two bucks per drink plus an extra $5 or $10 for being so hospitable.

Now, if there is no paperwork showing your discount there is a mighty good chance he is stealing from his employer by giving away free drinks. It is a common theme among bartenders. They rake in the gratuity while they steal from the employer.

As a ethical restaurant operator I cannot drink at places like this anymore. I don't want my bartenders stealing from the house to pad their tips so I will not play party to it where I drink.

He may be free to pour free drinks via the owner, but my guess is he is a good looking thief.

[lessthanluke]

YEah he is obviously stealing the drinks... I wouldn't feel comfortable tipping him at all but YMMV.

[Arbor Gold]

Omg I didn't even think of that. *facepalm* Good points. The first time he said "I haven't comped anyone all day, so I just got all yours" and he definitely does something at the register, but there's never any paperwork. Although, come to think of it, there's never any paperwork at any bar I go to regularly because they just tell me the total and I pay cash.

Either way, my gut says you guys are right and it's shady.