Should tipping be banned?

[sologdin]

Communist Party bosses tend to be cut from the same cloth: EVERYBODY else exists to be exploited, though they try to hide this with reams of confusing data.

now now. i know that i let your irrational personal snipes slip by in the other thread, but there's no reason for this subliterate derailment here. the thesis was that the underemployment and consequent underpayment and underprovision of benefits to employees, as you had described in connection with your work, is not a moral defect of capitalist executives, as implied by your aporetic post, but rather that this is the inexorable performance of the capitalist system, as specified in mine.

the reply that you've made, supra, is non-responsive, except to make what must have been intended as a cryptic ad hominem assault against me and can only therefore be construed as an admission of my proposition, i.e., an admission when you state that commies are the same as cappies, for whom everyone is to be exploited. good. this is progress, though it took a bit of work to get there. i'm glad that you have adopted the standard modern reading of capitalism and left behind the moral critique of capitalist behavior, which leads only to fascism.

be advised that shrill "communist party bosses" invective doesn't touch me, as i am critical of parallel state and party organizations, as well as of single party states and vanguardism.

be advised further that the substance of your puerile riposte is denied. communist party bureaucrats are not the same as capitalist executives, even though they must adopt industrial management techniques. the similarities and differences are of course not hidden anywhere, though i can imagine that some folks might find it all confusing.

The difference between communism and capitalism is that capitalists aren't hypocrites who pretend to work for the better of the working class, then fuck them in the arse the next day and sell them out.

Read a book called The White Tiger and see the evils of communism. There is also Atlas Shrugged ofc.

Capitalism is the lesser of the two evils, there is a reason why the communist system has been found to work only among tribal people living in the jungle and not normal people.

It seems that you genuinely believe in the garbage that you are spouting, so I hope:

I hope you mend your ways before your ideals utterly corrupt you.

which garbage is that, exactly? is the bare mention of the term capitalism offensive to you, the "spouting" of "garbage"? is your capitalist ideology so inflexible, so brittle, that it can tolerate no disputation? you might identify the objectionable "ideals," perhaps, though i contend that my principles are not idealisms. you might also specify how an ideal might be corruptive, and what is to be corrupted. none of that really makes any sense, yaknow?

except: it is an ugly sleight of mind to suggest that the moral failing is mine, when i was subjecting moral objections to capitalism to critique as pre-modern medievalisms, which, when adopted in an industrial society, are one part of fascism. are you adopting that moral critique of capitalism, then, also--or is the moral critique actually directed at me personally, for suggesting that there is something systemic, rather than sinful, in the economics?

i am incidentaly not aware of any communists who had anal intercourse with the working class and then sold it out. would you identify the communists that you had in mind? otherwise i must wonder why you have eroticized the party-class relationship. do you detect an eroticization in part II of the manifesto of the communist party, or in lenin's writings on party organization? i did not detect any eroticization in lukacs' essay on reification, nor in gramsci's prison notebooks, nor in adorno, althusser, mandel, de beauvoir, nor in any of the basic documents of marxism. have i missed something?

if there is a reason that communism only allegedly works in the jungle, you did not disclose it. is it perhaps a reason that you dreamed and have forgotten?

i do find beyond comical the recommendation of an ayn rand fiction from a college kid. one lives for these moments.

nonetheless, all of that is off point. do you have any way to refute the thesis that underpayment of wages is not a moral defect, but the operation of capitalism? do you have any means to refute my analysis of the gratuity, upthread? are those contributions mere garbage spouting?

seriously, guys, y'all gotta do better than this. this is B-league red baiting at best. i predict, consistent with the dialectic of history as laid down by marx & engels and perfected by the great stalin, that y'all will never rise to the level of Master Baiters.

[BigFatCoward]

i think i mentioned this in a previous thread about tipping (i can't remember which one, there have been many), but a friend of mine used to work in a very high end restaurant (£300ish per couple for a meal on average), which meant that with the 12.5% service charge she was making more than me (a kick ass, highly trained law enforcement officer who has passed multiple exams and promotion processes, works shitty hours, has been spat at, sworn at and had broken bones in the line of my job) for basically carrying food from the kitchen to the table. i have not got a huge problem with tipping, but

1) it should not result in a being paid above trained individuals for a minimal level of skill

2) it should definitely be inverse to the cost of the meal, tip high %age in shit restaurants, and low %age in expensive restaurants.

[Phaing]

be advised that shrill "communist party bosses" invective doesn't touch me, as i am critical of parallel state and party organizations, as well as of single party states and vanguardism.

Like, Bill O'Rielly is really an independant?

be advised further that the substance of your puerile riposte is denied. communist party bureaucrats are not the same as capitalist executives,......

Herrenvolk, perhaps?

A superior from of life that does not succumb to any form of temptation, ever become corrupt or abuse power?

History says otherwise... unless it's written by Commies.

which garbage is that, exactly? is the bare mention of the term capitalism offensive to you, the "spouting" of "garbage"? is your capitalist ideology so inflexible, so brittle, that it can tolerate no disputation?

Its been disipated until there is nothing left but Crony-Capitalism, and you guys are still bitchin' about it all the time, so I'd say... yup.

i am incidentaly not aware of any communists who had anal intercourse with the working class and then sold it out. would you identify the communists that you had in mind? otherwise i must wonder why you have eroticized the party-class relationship. do you detect an eroticization in part II of the manifesto of the communist party, or in lenin's writings on party organization? i did not detect any eroticization in lukacs' essay on reification, nor in gramsci's prison notebooks, nor in adorno, althusser, mandel, de beauvoir, nor in any of the basic documents of marxism. have i missed something?

Oh, your saying that no Communists screwed people over and then sold out... is that your final answer? How about that.

The Checker indicates a LOT of typos there, makes it hard to go back and research any of that. Maybe if you used the Caps funtion once in a while that would be a little better.

i do find beyond comical the recommendation of an ayn rand fiction from a college kid. one lives for these moments.

Ayn Rands books predicted all this, word for word in many cases. She saw the playbook unfold and detailed its many facets for years afterwards. She managed to knock you guys back decades, thus the multi-generational smear campaign that never addresses her points directly and always sounds ten times as pretentious and long-winded as the woman herself did.

nonetheless, all of that is off point. do you have any way to refute the thesis that underpayment of wages is not a moral defect, but the operation of capitalism? do you have any means to refute my analysis of the gratuity, upthread? are those contributions mere garbage spouting?

Compare the wages of Western Europeans to Eastern Europeans from 1945-1990.

South and North Korea from 1953 to today.

USA to USSR 1925 to today.

Who was getting underpaid?

seriously, guys, y'all gotta do better than this. this is B-league red baiting at best. i predict, consistent with the dialectic of history as laid down by marx & engels and perfected by the great stalin, that y'all will never rise to the level of Master Baiters.

We'll leave that to you.

But try to cut back, I hear that stuff will make you go blind ... ooops, too late?

[thewingedwolf]

I paid my way through college getting overly tipped by drunk rich girls (and guys). So no, it should not, if you ask me tipping should be base of compensation for more services out there, it would ensure better quality and customer service.

[Sixshells]

As a cab driver, rather than one of the many helpless victims in this thing we call the service industry, I have a slightly different take on this:

If you don't tip, FUCK YOU. I choose who I pick up, and it is not going to be you. My regulars are not people who expect me to be their bitch for minimum wage, they are people who expect to pay extra for solid gold service and that I will give it to them. And I do.

YMMV. Personally I feel more like I'm treating a worker like my "bitch" when I tip than when I pay a clearly established fee. Same when at the receiving end. I would rather pay higher fees than tipping. There is something inappropriate I find in it, re: social interactions.

Othewise, it seems strange that the US tolerate such a distortion of a market based economy.

BFC: the point had been discussed in previous tipping threads, as that there is a skill to food service and so it's not surprising or abnormal in itself that a skilled server in a top restaurant would earn good wages. Blame your government for not better paying some of its civil servants. Although as a police officer you may also have benefits and certain job protections even your high end server friends don't have. Service jobs tend to be unstable after all.

[sologdin]

Like, Bill O'Rielly is really an independant?

you're saying that i'm lying. ergo: scurrilous and irrelevant.

Herrenvolk, perhaps?

A superior from of life that does not succumb to any form of temptation, ever become corrupt or abuse power?

History says otherwise... unless it's written by Commies.

that's very specifically fascist doctrine. the attempt to conflate far right and far left doctrine is intellectually dishonest. it is similarly intellectually dishonest to suggest that my distinction between cappy and commie managers is based on master race doctrine when the post said nothing of the sort.

a familiarity with leftist history writing would furthermore demonstrate the ongoing process of internal critique.

Its been disipated until there is nothing left but Crony-Capitalism, and you guys are still bitchin' about it all the time, so I'd say... yup.

responsive to nothing. an oddity, though, to deploy crony capitalism and then denigrate someone else's complaints about it.

Oh, your saying that no Communists screwed people over and then sold out... is that your final answer? How about that.

not what i wrote at all. (i'm noticing some repeated difficulties with your inability to glean the sense of writings here. is it a pattern of mendacity or simply incomprehension?) but since you have used the same eroticized rhetoric: what in marxist writings suggests a relation of sexual violence between communist party and proletariat? have you any evidence to substantiate the metaphor?

The Checker indicates a LOT of typos there, makes it hard to go back and research any of that. Maybe if you used the Caps funtion once in a while that would be a little better.

the least valuable comment in the post. the names are spelled correctly.

Ayn Rands books predicted all this, word for word in many cases. She saw the playbook unfold and detailed its many facets for years afterwards. She managed to knock you guys back decades, thus the multi-generational smear campaign that never addresses her points directly and always sounds ten times as pretentious and long-winded as the woman herself did.

oh, if that's the case you could always lay out what you considered to be her predictions and we can discuss them. otherwise, this is mere bluster.

Compare the wages of Western Europeans to Eastern Europeans from 1945-1990.

South and North Korea from 1953 to today.

USA to USSR 1925 to today.

Who was getting underpaid?

if you have the data, feel free to present it, and we can discuss it. otherwise, bluster.

but, to take the comparison of the US and soviet union from 1917 to 1989: do you really regard that as a meaningful comparison? really? during that time, the soviet union was destroyed twice by invasion, and had not previously undergone the level of industrialization that the US had achieved, and was situated in manifestly different geographies. this is the limit of the critique? please tell me you have more than this.

your listing of purported comparisons evades the issue, not surprisingly. can you address the actual issue in the thread as i have created it, or do you merely wish to engage in your ongoing ad hominem campaign against me? you should at least be artful about it, and remain on topic, ya know.

We'll leave that to you.

But try to cut back, I hear that stuff will make you go blind ... ooops, too late?

this is the equivalent of i know you are but what am i? good job!

[Jaxtile]

I look forward to seeing how far down you plan to go in digging your own grave, calling Ayn Rand a visionary around here. And calling solo a know nothing sheeple.

[ThinkerX]

]now now. i know that i let your irrational personal snipes slip by in the other thread, but there's no reason for this subliterate derailment here. the thesis was that the underemployment and consequent underpayment and underprovision of benefits to employees, as you had described in connection with your work, is not a moral defect of capitalist executives, as implied by your aporetic post, but rather that this is the inexorable performance of the capitalist system, as specified in mine.

the reply that you've made, supra, is non-responsive, except to make what must have been intended as a cryptic ad hominem assault against me and can only therefore be construed as an admission of my proposition, i.e., an admission when you state that commies are the same as cappies, for whom everyone is to be exploited. good. this is progress, though it took a bit of work to get there. i'm glad that you have adopted the standard modern reading of capitalism and left behind the moral critique of capitalist behavior, which leads only to fascism.

be advised that shrill "communist party bosses" invective doesn't touch me, as i am critical of parallel state and party organizations, as well as of single party states and vanguardism.

be advised further that the substance of your puerile riposte is denied. communist party bureaucrats are not the same as capitalist executives, even though they must adopt industrial management techniques. the similarities and differences are of course not hidden anywhere, though i can imagine that some folks might find it all confusing.

As predicted: attempted obscurement of reality by an overabundance of meaningless words.

Again: to the peons on the shop floor, the distinctions between corporate exectutives and communist party bosses are trivial.

Ideology is utterly unimportant, nothing more than a smokescreen.

[kairparavel]

2) it should definitely be inverse to the cost of the meal, tip high %age in shit restaurants, and low %age in expensive restaurants.

That's crazypants, Geordiecop.

The service in a Michelin starred restaurant is much higher (all that training and knowledge like say, a cop might have) than the service down round the pub. So you're paying for that. You've also said in previous threads that you've eaten in fancy frou frou establishments, so I know you know there is a surreal level of service. Why should they get paid a lower percentage because they work in a higher end establishment? Their level of service is higher end and should be rewarded as such.

[TrueMetis]

That's crazypants, Geordiecop.

The service in a Michelin starred restaurant is much higher (all that training and knowledge like say, a cop might have) than the service down round the pub. So you're paying for that. You've also said in previous threads that you've eaten in fancy frou frou establishments, so I know you know there is a surreal level of service. Why should they get paid a lower percentage because they work in a higher end establishment? Their level of service is higher end and should be rewarded as such.

Presumably with a higher wage, if their employer doesn't think it deserves more of a reward why would I? That high end service is part of the package, it not some extra that they pulling out.

[Castel]

Would the higher wage -instead of a tip- make up the difference though? I'd assume that they'd make more on the tipping system.

[Theda Baratheon]

As a cab driver, rather than one of the many helpless victims in this thing we call the service industry, I have a slightly different take on this:

If you don't tip, FUCK YOU. I choose who I pick up, and it is not going to be you. My regulars are not people who expect me to be their bitch for minimum wage, they are people who expect to pay extra for solid gold service and that I will give it to them. And I do.

well as a student with hardly any money anyway when i pay 10 quid for a cab that would take me 10-15 mins to walk because i don't want to walk home in the dark then 10 quid is pretty much my fucking limit, if any of the cab drivers that take me home gave off this much hostility and expected more than 10 quid from me i'd probably just walk home in equally passive aggressive defiance.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I always over tip waiters, bartenders and cabbies. One morning I was cutting it close getting to the theater for a screening of Vertigo and it turned out the driver was also a Hitchcock fan and I tipped him $10 just for the good conversation.

[Theda Baratheon]

cabbies never talk to me :(

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

cabbies never talk to me :(

I like to talk so it makes it easy so if the driver is even remotely friendly and speaks so so English try to talk. I used to get black car home from work as a perk of working overtime and I would get the same drivers frequently so it was easy to establish a rapport but with yellow cabs it's always a crapshoot. Last time I was in a yellow cab the driver was a total prick so he got nothing. I'm sure if you got a ride from a driver who was into Blade Runner they would talk.

[Theda Baratheon]

I like to talk so it makes it easy so if the driver is even remotely friendly and speaks so so English try to talk. I used to get black car home from work as a perk of working overtime and I would get the same drivers frequently so it was easy to establish a rapport but with yellow cabs it's always a crapshoot. Last time I was in a yellow cab the driver was a total prick so he got nothing. I'm sure if you got a ride from a driver who was into Blade Runner they would talk.

yeh, but then i just wouldn't leave the cab and i think that would get a bit weird.

oh no, i remember one cabbie started a conversation with me about the damned because i was wearing a damned shirt. i might just have to wear advertising more often

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

yeh, but then i just wouldn't leave the cab and i think that would get a bit weird.

oh no, i remember one cabbie started a conversation with me about the damned because i was wearing a damned shirt. i might just have to wear advertising more often

But then they might throw you out of the cab without charging you the fare so it's win win.

[Theda Baratheon]

But then they might throw you out of the cab without charging you the fare so it's win win.

no cab fare? hmmmm. might just have to try that next time.

i'll find a way to work blade runner into the conversation

i always do :cool4:

[AverageGuy]

Would the higher wage -instead of a tip- make up the difference though?

Ideally, yes. Average server earnings tend to be in the mid-20k to 30k range. So the expectation is that the wages would go up about to where some of the kitchen staff are. The catch, and it's already been brought up, is actual hours. You'd have to adjust further for that.

[sologdin]

As predicted: attempted obscurement of reality by an overabundance of meaningless words.

Again: to the peons on the shop floor, the distinctions between corporate exectutives and communist party bosses are trivial.

Ideology is utterly unimportant, nothing more than a smokescreen.

i don't want to wrongfoot this; i do appreciate your commentary otherwise, and don't want to be assholish--but it is not a sign of good faith to simply assume that i intend to obscure. if the post reads as meaningless, i can't see how the defect is mine.

certainly there will be substantial similarities among industrial and other modern workers in capitalist and communist economies. the bolshies adopted taylorism, after all. i doubt that peons is the correct term for employees in either setting, though. the fact that someone is a capitalist manager on behalf of a for-profit corporation in an at-will employment environment, however, is distinct from a socialist manager in a state enterprise where there is a right to employment, and where under- and unemployment is not an issue.

i'm not certain what any of that colloquy has to do with moral objections to cappy executive conduct as opposed to identifying underemployment and unemployment as structural to capitalism, whereas they are not structural to socialism. why evade the issue?

likewise, why insist that ideology is unimportant when you have deployed anticommunist ideology irrelevantly against my positions?