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Who gave Mandon Moore the order to kill Tyrion?


Peter Woolshirt

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I've always been a firm believer that Ser Mandon acted on his own. The interaction between Tyrion, Bronn, and Ser Mandon lead me to that conclusion. I think Ser Mandon was possibly friends with Ser Vardis Egen. Or, at least had great respect for the man.

I was all for it being LF, but now I'm leaning towards this. It makes sense and is the simplest explanation. Anything else ends up being quite contrived, especially since no-one (including Tyrion) knew that he was going to end up leading a sortie in the middle of the battle alongside Ser Mandon onto a bridge of burning ships away from witnesses.

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No that's Kevan (totally worshipper of his brother) who says that Tywin would spare Tyrion's life but the latter highly doubts that. It's not Tywin's mmo.

They discussed it, as Kevan claims Tywin sent him to "make the offer". These are Tywin's words, only Tyrion doesn't believe them. Tywin has protected Tyrion for no other reason than that he's a Lannister. You can chose to believe Tywin (by proxy) or Tyrion, but Tyrion is feeling awfully hard done by here. I read his response to be Tyrion simply not willing to confess to something he didn't do. He says that he's not in a "confessing mood" after that.

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I would put it at LF as well. Tyrion was becoming dangerous to him, and he knew Tyrion was the only one in KL that LF knew could see through his deceptions. Also, it is like GRRM to convince us through a character's POV and create an impression about soemthing like this only to surprise us.

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It was Joffrey. The show revealed it. I think although there are variations in the show and the books, it's still the same. Example, GRRM just pretty much told us that Jayne Westerling is not pregnant because Robb's pregnant wife in the show gets butchered along with the unborn.

As you say, the show has altered things, and with minor details like this it can't be trusted to tell us what's happened in the book. See the example of Robert's bastards given earlier in the thread: that was Cersei in the book, but Joffrey in the show. Since the show has already given us one change to Joffrey, they might have done so again here.
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The Kettleblacks have always belonged to LF. LF has proven to be someone who could nurse a grudge. Tyrion's deception showed him that he had to remove Tyrion from the game, because he fooled him, and someone as smart as LF can't have someone walking around who's capable of deciving him. That along with Tyrion's high birth and access to power made it essential to have him killed at the first opportunity, and Backwater was the perfect opportunity to do so. I think Tyrion will eventually figure this out on his own and it will eventually repay the debt using his mountain clans.

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The statement by Ser Osmund:

"That brave boy said to me 'Good Ser Osmund, guard me well, for my uncle loves me not. He means to be king in my place.' "

means, absolutly nothing, casue it is not said, if Joffrey meant Tyrion. For me it looks more Joffrey meant Stannis. So this was propably no lie by Ser Osmund. It was just interpreted to discredit Tyrion.

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I've always been a firm believer that Ser Mandon acted on his own. The interaction between Tyrion, Bronn, and Ser Mandon lead me to that conclusion. I think Ser Mandon was possibly friends with Ser Vardis Egen. Or, at least had great respect for the man.

nice catch, entirely possible. Unfortunately, we'll probably never find out

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The statement by Ser Osmund:

"That brave boy said to me 'Good Ser Osmund, guard me well, for my uncle loves me not. He means to be king in my place.' "

means, absolutly nothing, casue it is not said, if Joffrey meant Tyrion. For me it looks more Joffrey meant Stannis. So this was propably no lie by Ser Osmund. It was just interpreted to discredit Tyrion.

Uhuh? Osmund said that to frame Tyrion even deeper in his trial after Joff's death (presumably under Cersei's orders). By uncle he meant Tyrion alright.

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Like the slaughter of Robert's bastards...Cersei in the books, Joffery in the show.

Yep, Cersei also ordered the death of all of Robert's bastards in the books. I hate how the show gives Cersei more humanity than she really has. She is as cold hearted and arrogant as it gets. the only remorse she shows is when she is naked on her walk of shame. That remorse ends the moment she is back in the castle.
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No that's Kevan (totally worshipper of his brother) who says that Tywin would spare Tyrion's life but the latter highly doubts that. It's not Tywin's mmo.

Tyrion is not good at reading his father's true intentions at all, because of Tywin's cold nature and his own low self-esteem. When Tywin makes him acting Hand, he gets angry and assumes this is, because Twyin has given up on Jaime. Yet from what Tywin says himself and Kevan's words to Cersei we know that was never the case.

Tywin is an ice man, who rarely loses control, but when Tyrion chose a trial by combat, Tywin was livid. The reason being he did not want Tyrion to die. Tyrion never realises that Tywin could have had him killed a thousand times over when he was a child. Even when Tyrion is desperate to go on a suicide mission, Tywin forbids him from going. Tywin protects all of his family, but he wants them to do exactly what he says. Even when they don't he still tries to protect them.

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Tyrion is not good at reading his father's true intentions at all, because of Tywin's cold nature and his own low self-esteem. When Tywin makes him acting Hand, he gets angry and assumes this is, because Twyin has given up on Jaime. Yet from what Tywin says himself and Kevan's words to Cersei we know that was never the case.

Tywin is an ice man, who rarely loses control, but when Tyrion chose a trial by combat, Tywin was livid. The reason being he did not want Tyrion to die. Tyrion never realises that Tywin could have had him killed a thousand times over when he was a child. Even when Tyrion is desperate to go on a suicide mission, Tywin forbids him from going. Tywin protects all of his family, but he wants them to do exactly what he says. Even when they don't he still tries to protect them.

I agree with most, but Tyrion has 0 to thank him. What, so Tyrion is supposed to show some grattitude because Tywin didn't kill him as a baby? Is he supposed to show grattitude for all of Tywin's sharp lessons and how he screwed with him so many times over? Tywin was a total scumbag to him.

Tywin only started putting some value on Tyrion by the time of the events of GoT, when he saw how resourceful he could be. And after re-reading Tyrion's trial chapters yes I admit that I'm wrong and Tywin didn't want Tyrion dead but this is more due to his idea of family values and such, considering that Tyrion inherited Tywin's wits (no denying that). Regardless of any of this, not once crossed the mind of the mightiful-smart Tywin that maybe his son was innocent after all, because he didn't care. Tywin cares only about the family's legacy and I'm guessing Tyrion's death wouldn't be positive to it.

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I agree with most, but Tyrion has 0 to thank him. What, so Tyrion is supposed to show some grattitude because Tywin didn't kill him as a baby? Is he supposed to show grattitude for all of Tywin's sharp lessons and how he screwed with him so many times over? Tywin was a total scumbag to him.

Tywin only started putting some value on Tyrion by the time of the events of GoT, when he saw how resourceful he could be. And after re-reading Tyrion's trial chapters yes I admit that I'm wrong and Tywin didn't want Tyrion dead but this is more due to his idea of family values and such, considering that Tyrion inherited Tywin's wits (no denying that). Regardless of any of this, not once crossed the mind of the mightiful-smart Tywin that maybe his son was innocent after all, because he didn't care. Tywin cares only about the family's legacy and I'm guessing Tyrion's death wouldn't be positive to it.

No I don't think Tyrion should be showing gratitude, but he should better understand the situation. It's funny how Tyrion thinks he is great at reading people, when he is actually very bad at it. He may be able to tell how a person is going to act, but he has no concept of the emotions they are feeling. When he tries to read Tywin, Shae or even Sansa he is nearly always wrong.

Tywin has always valued all his family, but he only started respecting Tyrion after the AGOT. People act as if Tyrion has done nothing to make Tywin doubt him. Tyrion went and married a commoner without parental approval at 13. If any of Tywin's family had done that he would have lost respect for them and relegated them to staying at Casterly Rock. When Cersei shows she is incompetent, the same fate awaits her.

Tywin like Kevan probably were undecided by Tyrion's guilt, but the testimony of Taena and Pycelle swayed him to believe Tyrion is guilty. Taena had no reason to lie and claimed she saw him do it, This is pretty damming and Tywin knew Tyrion had serious problems with Joffrey. Tywin also knew Tyrion had threatened to have Tommen raped and whipped. Finally he trust Pycelle and Pycelle reported Tyrion stole poisons from his chamber. Looking objective at the case what would you think?

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Alright the suspects:

Tywin - impossible, he wouldn't kill a Lannister, especially not in a moment like that.

Cersei doesn't think about it at all in her POV's, I think that takes her out of the list.

Joffrey - the fact that he does in the show means absolutely nothing. He is 4 years younger in the books, he's nowhere near the sadist of the show, yet. I don't think he did it.

LF - a strong possibility, and I really doubt we will find out if he did it. He might have pushed Joffrey to do it, like he did with Ned.

What I think is that Mandon Moore did it himself. He had an opportunity, and he took it. Why not?

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What I think is that Mandon Moore did it himself. He had an opportunity, and he took it. Why not?

Perhaps because he only follows orders? He has no iniciative whatsoever.

Looking objective at the case what would you think?

Exactly, it looks TOO objective. Oberyn himself questions this and he ain't half as smart as Tywin. Pycelle reported potions that were stolen and Tyrion admitted it, yet Pycelle himself says that the poison used to kill Joff was not made of the compounds that Tyrion stole.

How would Tyrion guess that Joff would make him his cupbearer in the Wedding?

Joffrey was a monster, nearly-everyone wanted him dead (secretely ofc). But Tywin knew how ruthless the King was.

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Exactly, it looks TOO objective. Oberyn himself questions this and he ain't half as smart as Tywin. Pycelle reported potions that were stolen and Tyrion admitted it, yet Pycelle himself says that the poison used to kill Joff was not made of the compounds that Tyrion stole.

How would Tyrion guess that Joff would make him his cupbearer in the Wedding?

Joffrey was a monster, nearly-everyone wanted him dead (secretely ofc). But Tywin knew how ruthless the King was.

I would not go as far as to say nearly everyone wanted him dead. The Tyrells did, but the Lannisters sure didn't and the rest of the courtiers probably did not hate him enough to kill him.

Tyrion does not have to guess, that Joffrey made him the cup bearer he just needs an opportunity to drop in the poison. Kevan is an intelligent and fair man, he believes Tyrion is guilty. Every fair man in the city thinks Tyrion is guilty. The only person, who has faith in him is Jaime. At first Kevan is undecided and this could be seen by his attitude to Tyrion, however, as more and more evidence piles up he becomes colder.

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I would not go as far as to say nearly everyone wanted him dead. The Tyrells did, but the Lannisters sure didn't and the rest of the courtiers probably did not hate him enough to kill him.

Tyrion does not have to guess, that Joffrey made him the cup bearer he just needs an opportunity to drop in the poison. Kevan is an intelligent and fair man, he believes Tyrion is guilty. Every fair man in the city thinks Tyrion is guilty. The only person, who has faith in him is Jaime. At first Kevan is undecided and this could be seen by his attitude to Tyrion, however, as more and more evidence piles up he becomes colder.

Maybe, I think most of the fair men like Kevan and Addam Marbrand only began to think that he was guilty because of the strong evidence presented against him (the false testemonies arranged by Tyrells and Cersei). Tyrion and Tywin would know Cersei would do it. Especially since she's the one that blamed Tyrion in the first place without having any evidence.

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Maybe, I think most of the fair men like Kevan and Addam Marbrand only began to think that he was guilty because of the strong evidence presented against him (the false testemonies arranged by Tyrells and Cersei). Tyrion and Tywin would know Cersei would do it. Especially since she's the one that blamed Tyrion in the first place without having any evidence.

Except the two most damming pieces of evidence came from Taena and Pycelle. These were the two witness statements, which swayed the likes of Tywin and Kevan. Both of these statements had nothing to do with Cersei. So from Tywin's POV he has a witness statement, which he knows has not been tampered with claiming she SAW Tyrion do it. Even Tyrion thinks to himself she has no reason to lie against him. Cersei did not pay her off, she was acting on her own account. Then Pycelle, Tywin's biggest fan and his most loyal support, gave the evidence about the poisons.

Lady Merryweather swore that she had seen the dwarf drop something into the king's wine while Joff and Margaery were cutting the pie; old Estermont, young Peckledon, the singer Galyeon of Cuy, and the squires Morros and Jothos Slynt told how Tyrion had picked up the chalice as Joff was dying and poured out the last of the poisoned wine onto the floor.

Even Tyrion admits Taena should have no agenda and we know she was not bought by Cersei.

When did I make so many enemies? Lady Merryweather was all but a stranger.

Here is Kevan telling Tyrion wanted convinced him.

"I am curious. You were always a fair man, Uncle. What convinced you?" "Why steal Pycelle's poisons, if not to use them?" Ser Kevan said bluntly. "And Lady Merryweather saw - "

Not to mention Tyrion was seen emptying the chalice as Joffrey lay dying.

EDIT

The Tyrells did not arrange any false testimonies except for Taena maybe, but we do not know for sure who she is working for. It could easily have been someone else. Cersei certainly at least was not involved in getting Taena to lie.

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