Night's Watch Oath and Celibacy

[NotoriousSRJ]

So part of the Night's Watch oath contains "I shall take no wife...father no children." It always seemed to me that this phrase didn't mean one has to necessarily become celibate and that the act of sex itself isn't prohibited. Is this the case? Yes I know members of the Night's Watch are know to frequent the brothel in Mole's Town. Thanks in advance for any responses!

[Howling Mad]

Yep, by all accounts celibacy is just the surest way of "fathering no children."

[NotoriousSRJ]

Yep, by all accounts celibacy is just the surest way of "fathering no children."

So would members of the Night's watch who had sex and didn't father children (not going to name names-spoilers) after joining be considered "oathbreakers?"

[PJsnaks]

Yep, pretty sure they are. Its just that no one is going to do anything about it as long as theres no kid. They have too few men to nitpick at this point

[Howling Mad]

So would members of the Night's watch who had sex and didn't father children (not going to name names-spoilers) after joining be considered "oathbreakers?"

Do you mean with each other or the whores? Obviously two men having sex can't lead to fathering children well at least not in Westeros. As with most celibate orders it appears that the NW gives a good wink and nod to the occasional breaking of this particular oath.

[Cersei of the Kingsguard]

yeah celibacy is every mans dream ... :drool: :agree:

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Mormont out and out says that he has no intention of punishing men for whoring.

[NotoriousSRJ]

Do you mean with each other or the whores? Obviously two men having sex can't lead to fathering children well at least not in Westeros. As with most celibate orders it appears that the NW gives a good wink and nod to the occasional breaking of this particular oath.

Ahh OK, gotcha.

[Gannicus]

So BJ's are okay? How about if he pulls out? Backdoor?

I think it's silly. The words of the oath signify that the man is giving up his life and lineage in service of the NW for the purpose of defending the realms of men.

The exact wording isn't that important and I doubt NW most people in the NW would really care if a man of the NW had to keep himself warm on a cold winter night. At large sex is fine as long as it's not interfering with the man's true duty and is not being used to procreate.

[Castel]

Mormont out and out says that he has no intention of punishing men for whoring.

That's because it's a different time and he doesn't want to fuck with both morale and manpower.

But yes,ideally you're not allowed to go have sex. The reasons are obvious. In such times sex often leads to pregnancy or an emotional connection/marriage, something the oath is supposed to prevent.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

what if a whore from Mole town gets pregnant? this should answer the question!

[The Crow]

Well celibacy would prevent any chance of fathering a child, but I don't think the NW care what the other is doing anyways.

[Dryhtscipe]

what if a whore from Mole town gets pregnant? this should answer the question!

Then nobody would know who the father was.

Because whores.

[C0bR]

Better have men have whores than going homo.

[Perfidious Algernon]

Do you mean with each other or the whores? Obviously two men having sex can't lead to fathering children well at least not in Westeros. As with most celibate orders it appears that the NW gives a good wink and nod to the occasional breaking of this particular oath.

Now that you mention it, it's very odd that we don't have even an oblique reference to homosexual behavior among the NW. My understanding is that this is fairly common in situations where women are absent for years at a time (ships, prisons, etc.)? Even if there arn't a significant number of gay relationships in the NW, you'd think GRRM would want to address this...maybe having Mole Town nearby renders this a moot point.

[Dryhtscipe]

Now that you mention it, it's very odd that we don't have even an oblique reference to homosexual behavior among the NW. My understanding is that this is fairly common in situations where women are absent for years at a time (ships, prisons, etc.)? Even if there arn't a significant number of gay relationships in the NW, you'd think GRRM would want to address this...maybe having Mole Town nearby renders this a moot point.

Er, yes we do. There's at least one man that I can remember accused of it.

[butterbumps!]

So part of the Night's Watch oath contains "I shall take no wife...father no children." It always seemed to me that this phrase didn't mean one has to necessarily become celibate and that the act of sex itself isn't prohibited. Is this the case? Yes I know members of the Night's Watch are know to frequent the brothel in Mole's Town. Thanks in advance for any responses!

Well, at the very least Jon and Mormont believe "mining for treasure" = oathbreaking, but the Watch tends to turn a blind eye because everyone does it.

The point of "take no wives, father no children" is make sure that a Watchman will not have divided loyalties between family and his duty, as well as a measure to avoid nepotism in the Watch (i.e. imagine if an LC made that an inherited title). So I think the real issue for having this stipulation is to make sure the Watchman's attention is kept on his post, which a family (or starting some kind of legacy/ dynasty) would compromise.

I think the Moletown mining is considered an acceptable form of "oathbreaking," because it's probably unlikely that the Watchmen would be falling in love and starting families with the prostitutes. I think it would be frowned on more if a Watchman was keeping mistresses and bastards in an apartment somewhere, playing house on the weekends or something.

[David Selig]

Jon and Sam's "I broke the oath because I had sex" attitude even though it's clearly not true is quite annoying, frankly.

Have they fathered children? No. Case closed, the wording is clear.

[thewingedwolf]

I think the Moletown mining is considered an acceptable form of "oathbreaking," because it's probably unlikely that the Watchmen would be falling in love and starting families with the prostitutes. I think it would be frowned on more if a Watchman was keeping mistresses and bastards in an apartment somewhere, playing house on the weekends or something.

Agreed let's not forget that, since the watch has increasingly lowering numbers, they cannot afford to discipline eveything its members do. I fotget if the quote is only from the TV show or the books as well but LC Mormont tells Jon Snow about how there would be only ghosts guarding the Wall if they beheaded every man who went "mining" in Mole's Town.

I guess it gives new meaning to "Beggars can't be choosers"

[Perfidious Algernon]

Er, yes we do. There's at least one man that I can remember accused of it.

If you're thinking of Satin, he was a prostitute before joining up so I personally wouldn't count that. I'm scouring google & the wiki and I can't find anyone else.