Jaime's threat to Edmure

[TheGreatstag]

New poster. I've been re-reading A Feast For Crows. I'm up to Jaime's 'negotiation' with Edmure regarding Riverrun. I did not doubt that he would send the Riverlanders first to the walls, and then the Freys, followed by the westermen. However, the next thing he said was:

"When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I'll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I'm done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here."..."You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet."

Was there any legitimacy to this threat? One would think that given the aim at this stage was ending the hostilities, sending Riverlander lords into an attack of Riverrun followed by a massacre that would put the Bolton sack of Winterfell (at least they left the Godswood!) and the Lannister sack of King's Landing to shame, would only restoke the fires of rebellion among Riverlords and Northern lords who reluctantly bent the knee following Robb's death. There are only so many examples one can set before people realize that their overlords are tyrants. Furthermore, with the Faith arming themselves against those who would massacre common men and women, and the outrage at the atrocities in Saltpans, one would think this would be the best way to ignite things all up again.

Would Jaime have actually gone through with this? And if he wouldn't have, why did Edmure give in?

[therealbando]

Welcome to the Forums :cheers:

I, for one, would like to think that he wouldn`t have gone through with it. At least not with the entire thing anyway. I have no doubt, that had Edmure refuse him, Jaime would have ordered a full assault on Riverrun (like he said, Riverland men first, Freys second, Westerland men last), he probably would have killed the likes of Edmure and the Blackfish, but I don`t think he would have gone further. He is not that much like Tywin after all...

[danm_999]

I have difficulty believing it was an idle threat. In fact, Jaime's past few chapters in AFFC before that moment stress how he believes that idle threats are foolish;

That muttonhead Ser Ryman puts a noose round Edmure’s neck, but will not hang him. And Roslin Frey has a trout growing in her belly. My grandsons will never be secure in Riverrun so long as any Tully heir remains alive.”

She was not wrong, Jaime knew.

Is this where you threaten to hang Edmure?” Beneath his bushy brows, Tully’s eyes were stone. “My nephew is marked for death no matter what I do. So hang him and be done with it. I expect that Edmure is as weary of standing on those gallows as I am of seeing him there.”

Ryman Frey is a bloody fool.

Or, the most direct of all;

“Only a fool makes threats he’s not prepared to carry out. If I were to threaten to hit you unless you shut your mouth, and you presumed to speak, what do you think I’d do?”

“Ser, you do not unders—”

Jaime hit him.

Then, once the threat is made, he thinks this;

With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin’s son?

Jaime believes he is channeling Tywin. And Tywin is not a man who believes in empty threats, or shying from hurting children and women.

[Sansa_Stark]

I have difficulty believing it was an idle threat. In fact, Jaime's past few chapters in AFFC before that moment stress how he believes that idle threats are foolish;

Or, the most direct of all;

Then, once the threat is made, he thinks this;

Jaime believes he is channeling Tywin. And Tywin is not a man who believes in empty threats, or shying from hurting children and women.

This so much. Jaime would have done it.

[TheGreatstag]

I have difficulty believing it was an idle threat. In fact, Jaime's past few chapters in AFFC before that moment stress how he believes that idle threats are foolish;

Or, the most direct of all;

Then, once the threat is made, he thinks this;

Jaime believes he is channeling Tywin. And Tywin is not a man who believes in empty threats, or shying from hurting children and women.

Very good point. It would have been awfully hypocritical for him not to have gone through with it, and if anything Jaime Lannister has pride. I quite enjoyed the Jaime redemption arc on my first read-through but little aspects of his character still niggle out at me on re-read. It would have been interesting if Edmure had decided to stay defiant like the Blackfish and Jaime had, in the end, slaughtered Riverrun, both in terms of how the other Lords of Westeros would have responded and how it would have affected Jaime's redemption arc in the eyes of the reader. Pushing Bran out a window is one thing, catapulting the newly born Tully into the burnt remains of the old Tully seat is quite another.

[ambi76]

I always find it puzzeling that people flip out about this. It was an obvious joke. A mean, horrible, terrible, nasty joke. When I read it I thought even Jaime scared himself a bit with it. I got serious "Wow, did I really just say that? Oh gods, he's bying it, because... well there is precedent I guess..." vibes from him. But yeah, I'm a Jaime fangirl so maybe it's just that.

ETA: So knowing GRRM, I wouldn't be surpried that when Roslin has her baby some random royalist does this for the lulz and then it's "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" all over again. :bang:

[Starks Revenge]

I think it was such a terrible threat that Jaime thought it couldn't be refused, but im sure he would have gone through with it. Just hoping he wouldn't have to.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I think it was such a terrible threat that Jaime thought it couldn't be refused, but im sure he would have gone through with it. Just hoping he wouldn't have to.

Yes. He probably didn't think he'd have to, but as danm's quotes make quite clear, it was no idle threat and it would have been carried out.

[mrunderhill]

If the worst came to the worst he probably would have gone through with it, but it was unlikely to ever get to that. Jaime expected Edmure to cave and more importantly he was not going to stand back and wait for Edmure's wife to give birth. If Edmure had rejected him he would have stormed the castle right there ad then, meaning the baby would not yet be born and he had an out.

[TheGreatstag]

If the worst came to the worst he probably would have gone through with it, but it was unlikely to ever get to that. Jaime expected Edmure to cave and more importantly he was not going to stand back and wait for Edmure's wife to give birth. If Edmure had rejected him he would have stormed the castle right there ad then, meaning the baby would not yet be born and he had an out.

The only way Edmure would cave in response to that threat though is if Edmure is convinced that Jaime is mad enough to go through with the threat.

There was also this passage

"Ser Ilyn," said Jaime. "You heard Lord Tully. Do it."

The silent knight gripped his greatsword with both hands. Long and heavy it was, sharp as common steel could be...as Ser Ilyn drew the blade back, he closed his eyes. The stroke had all Payne's weight behind it.

"No! Stop. NO!" Edwyn Frey came panting into view...

Somehow I don't imagine Jaime would've come in with a last minute 'no, stop Ser Ilyn, I jest with Lord Tully' after all his comments about not following through on threats. So if the plan all along was to get Edmure to cave with threats, why behead him? Overall, Jaime got what he wanted out of this chapter, but I don't quite get how and he really doesn't seem all that much in control of the situation.

[Frozentree]

He would certainly not destroy the castle so "no man would ever know a castle stood there". Because his goal was to conquer the castle for his uncle. Destroying it would be not only waste of time but completely counter-productive.

He certainly would kill Blakcfish, Edmure and Edmure's child.

He might and might not do the sack the way he described, but I believe he was exaggerating. Exaggerating is not same as bluffing, mind you.

[mcb]

Just a few pages earlier, Jaime gave Shithead Frey (forgot his first name) a lecture about making threats, if you aren't willing to fulfill them. And now he would make an idle, empty threat himself? That's at least doubtful.

[TheGreatstag]

He would certainly not destroy the castle so "no man would ever know a castle stood there". Because his goal was to conquer the castle for his uncle. Destroying it would be not only waste of time but completely counter-productive.

He certainly would kill Blakcfish, Edmure and Edmure's child.

He might and might not do the sack the way he described, but I believe he was exaggerating. Exaggerating is not same as bluffing, mind you.

Edmure was quite ready to die ("Better a sword than a rope."), the Blackfish would be aware that he would die if it came to losing a battle. They were all (including Emmon Frey) aware that a battle would destroy parts of the castle. The only difference between those self-evident truths of a battle and Jaime's threat was the murder of innocents, the the destruction of the godswood and the burning/tearing down of the rest. I can imagine he wouldn't divert the Tumblestone over the place, but I reckon putting the entirety of Riverrun to the sword would be significant enough an event to have repercussions throughout the Seven Kingdoms.

[mrunderhill]

The only way Edmure would cave in response to that threat though is if Edmure is convinced that Jaime is mad enough to go through with the threat.

There was also this passage

Somehow I don't imagine Jaime would've come in with a last minute 'no, stop Ser Ilyn, I jest with Lord Tully' after all his comments about not following through on threats. So if the plan all along was to get Edmure to cave with threats, why behead him? Overall, Jaime got what he wanted out of this chapter, but I don't quite get how and he really doesn't seem all that much in control of the situation.

Read what I said. The baby was not born and Jaime was not going to wait about. If Edmure had said no he would have stormed the castle before the child was born, taking away the choice from him.

[MotherAnduin]

Jaime ordered to kill Jeyne if she tried to run away. Jaime ordered so because he didn't want to take the chance that Robb's child should be born. Yes, Jaime is still a scumbag.

[The Lady Lannister]

He needed this threat to work, as he was expected to lead the Lannister host from the front, and he knew that then he would die. He thought about it a lot.

I personally hope he would not have carried out this threat, but he is a very complex character and identifies himself first and foremost as a soldier, so there is a good chance he would do it.

Edit:

And of course he was chanelling Tywin

[Sansa_Stark]

He needed this threat to work, as he was expected to lead the Lannister host from the front, and he knew that then he would die. He thought about it a lot.

I personally hope he would not have carried out this threat, but he is a very complex character and identifies himself first and foremost as a soldier, so there is a good chance he would do it.

But a true knight defends the weak and the innocent!!!

Or so I am told.

[mrunderhill]

Jaime ordered to kill Jeyne if she tried to run away. Jaime ordered so because he didn't want to take the chance that Robb's child should be born. Yes, Jaime is still a scumbag.

Jeyne is lucky she was not executed from the start. Hardly the worst thing in the world to kill her if she tries to escape.

[Sansa_Stark]

Jeyne is lucky she was not executed from the start. Hardly the worst thing in the world to kill her if she tries to escape.

Killing a pregnant girl(whom he described as a child at one point) is pretty awful no matter what the reasoning.

[TheGreatstag]

Read what I said. The baby was not born and Jaime was not going to wait about. If Edmure had said no he would have stormed the castle before the child was born, taking away the choice from him.

I consider the child to be a tangential part of the threat. Sure, it's horrible, but so is putting the entirety of Riverrun to the sword. That was part of the threat regardless of when he stormed the castle.