The Great Sieges of Westeros.

[messem]

I missed a bleeding zero while typing and enlighten me.

I knew that with the zero. That's not the point. I wanted to stress the number. Half a million. You sound like the number make it easier. Have you any idea how much food half a million people need? It is near to impossible to feed them during a siege.

[The BlackBear]

Difficult to starve out without a sizeable fleet to block both the bay and the river. About 3:1 ratio for the attacker if the general populace does not fight. At least 20,000 men to storm

If you look at the map the harbour is outside the walls. So the fleet isn't necessary.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Kings_landing_ACOK_map.gif

As much as the mind boggles at feeding all of KL, I think we have to assume it has some pretty hefty grain stores. They have to survive a winter that could last years if they've been preparing they must have a lot of space to put provisions. But normally the city wouldn't be prepared with that much food, all it took was the Tyrells to cut of the flow of food and the city rapidly ran out of food.

20,000 could storm the castle easily as this was pretty much Stannis' strength in the battle of the Blackwater and he almost took the castle, even having to get his troops across the river. With time to get his entire army safely around the Blackwater he could have taken the city extremely easily. Maegors Holdfast might take a little more time, but as we have seen from the Sack Gregor and Lorch didn't seem to have too much trouble getting in.

Storms end is unbreakable in my opinion, and Casterly Rock is very nearly from what we've heard.

[Corvinus85]

If you look at the map the harbour is outside the walls. So the fleet isn't necessary.

http://awoiaf.wester...ng_ACOK_map.gif

As much as the mind boggles at feeding all of KL, I think we have to assume it has some pretty hefty grain stores. They have to survive a winter that could last years if they've been preparing they must have a lot of space to put provisions. But normally the city wouldn't be prepared with that much food, all it took was the Tyrells to cut of the flow of food and the city rapidly ran out of food.

20,000 could storm the castle easily as this was pretty much Stannis' strength in the battle of the Blackwater and he almost took the castle, even having to get his troops across the river. With time to get his entire army safely around the Blackwater he could have taken the city extremely easily. Maegors Holdfast might take a little more time, but as we have seen from the Sack Gregor and Lorch didn't seem to have too much trouble getting in.

Storms end is unbreakable in my opinion, and Casterly Rock is very nearly from what we've heard.

Yes, the fleet is necessary, otherwise you are going to have Davos types sneaking in to bring food.

[The BlackBear]

Yes, the fleet is necessary, otherwise you are going to have Davos types sneaking in to bring food.

Well Storms end has gates to allow boats in, these are the ones Davos went through, and he got past the entire Tyrell fleet anyway. Smugglers to KL would have to land the boat and then get to the Mud Gate, and besiegers with a lick of sense will have built palisades against sally around the walls including the mud gate. And then the garrison at Storms End was not large, so Davos' amount of food made a noticeable difference, in a city of 500,000 a boat of onions will make almost no impact at all.

But all of this is unimportant, because KL is very weak and easy to take by force so that's what they'd do.

[Blackfish1992]

As much as the mind boggles at feeding all of KL, I think we have to assume it has some pretty hefty grain stores. They have to survive a winter that could last years if they've been preparing they must have a lot of space to put provisions. But normally the city wouldn't be prepared with that much food, all it took was the Tyrells to cut of the flow of food and the city rapidly ran out of food.

In winter you can be supplied from the Tyrell lands, or Essos it's not that they build a big stockpile before winter and don't supply after ... .

[The BlackBear]

In winter you can be supplied from the Tyrell lands, or Essos it's not that they build a big stockpile before winter and don't supply after ... .

Source?

[Blackfish1992]

Source?

Common sense? Do you have any idea how much food 500000 people eat during a winter of something like 2-3 years? You can't just stockpile all that food right before it starts ...

[The BlackBear]

Common sense? Do you have any idea how much food 500000 people eat during a winter of something like 2-3 years? You can't just stockpile all that food right before it starts ...

Common sense is hard to use in the world of ASoIaF. The plants would have no chance of surviving winters that last decades. Food is somehow grown in fields up at Last hearth despite the fact there is almost always snow on the ground. There are dragons, and the towns are absurdly big given the general population and comparable time periods.

We have no idea how far south winter extends so we can't say with too much certainty that the Reach would still be growing crops, even if they are their output will be severely reduced, and their priority will be to feed their own citizens.

Food will be imported to KL but they will still have stockpiled a great deal before winter.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Kings Landing-Would be neigh impossible to starve out,Would take I think about 40,000 to storm it.

KL had a famine during the war of 5 kings, it was not even besieged at that point. How can you assume it would 'near impossible' to starve out? There are 900.000 people living in the city, with no agriculture to speak of... Seriously...

Stannis would have taken KL without the Lannister/Tyrell host arriving.

He had what, about 30.000 men? A good number of which got burned on the Blackwater. Goldcloaks are 4000-6000 men strong, and there are a few hundred personal guardsmen.

Winterfell-Would be relatively easy to blockade,Would take anything between 10,000-15,000 to storm.

According to Ned Stark, 100 men can defend WF against 10.000... It has got 2 walls, the outer 30 feet the inner 100 feet. Double or triple the numbers if you want to it by force...

Storm's End-Never been taken,Easy to blockade and can last a few months without supplies,If Breached would take at least 20,000 to storm.

TWOW spoiler from Arianne sample:

Storms End has been taken by about 1/2 of the GC. If you are not called Mace Tyrell and lay siege to a bankettable, it can and has been taken.

Harrenhall-Took Dragons to bring it down,Easy to blockade due to it's position,Might need anywhere between 30,000-40,000 to take without taking enormous casualties.

It was the strongest castle in all the seven kingsdoms, before it got melted down... Now it's hard to tell how good it can be defended, but it would think it's still one of the stronger castles

Riverrun-Easy to blockade,Would take about 5000-8000 to storm

To besiege Riverrun you have to devide your host into 3 camps, each separated by a river. It is actually the hardest castle to besiege, because you have to divide your troops and they can't get to each other quickly. (At this point i have to ask, have we read the same books? Oo)

Casterly Rock-Would be hard to Blockade without a really good navy,Would take anywhere between 25,000 to 30,000 to storm.

No idea how Casterly Rock is located geographically, or how many and how strong the walls are.

Eyrie-Easy to blockade,Neigh impossible to take,could be held by a few thousand good archers.

This actually the easiest castle to besiege and starve out, if you can take the Bloodgate, since they have no chance of getting any additional food up there

Pyke-Almost impossible to Blockade,The Rope bridges make it easy to isolate invading armies,could be taken by 10,000 well prepared soldiers.

If you get your troops on the island, should imo be the easiest castle to take.

Highgarden-Would be hard to starve out,Would take at least 30,000 to take it.

Again, no idea about geography or walls, so can't say.

Hightower-Would be relatively easy to blockade,would be extremely hard to take without taking a lot of casualties.

Agreed

Sunspear-Hard to blockade without a good navy,the walls would pose a problem if the gates aren't quickly taken,Might need 10,000 to storm.

Dornishmen don't get besieged... They leave their castles and fight with guerillia tactics, so there wouldn't be a siege ;)

The Wall-If held by sufficient men,is impossible to take.

No argument here.

[Morienthar]

KL had a famine during the war of 5 kings, it was not even besieged at that point. How can you assume it would 'near impossible' to starve out? There are 900.000 people living in the city, with no agriculture to speak of... Seriously...

Stannis would have taken KL without the Lannister/Tyrell host arriving.

He had what, about 30.000 men? A good number of which got burned on the Blackwater. Goldcloaks are 4000-6000 men strong, and there are a few hundred personal guardsmen.

According to Ned Stark, 100 men can defend WF against 10.000... It has got 2 walls, the outer 30 feet the inner 100 feet. Double or triple the numbers if you want to it by force...

TWOW spoiler from Arianne sample:

Storms End has been taken by about 1/2 of the GC. If you are not called Mace Tyrell and lay siege to a bankettable, it can and has been taken.

It was the strongest castle in all the seven kingsdoms, before it got melted down... Now it's hard to tell how good it can be defended, but it would think it's still one of the stronger castles

To besiege Riverrun you have to devide your host into 3 camps, each separated by a river. It is actually the hardest castle to besiege, because you have to divide your troops and they can't get to each other quickly. (At this point i have to ask, have we read the same books? Oo)

No idea how Casterly Rock is located geographically, or how many and how strong the walls are.

This actually the easiest castle to besiege and starve out, if you can take the Bloodgate, since they have no chance of getting any additional food up there

If you get your troops on the island, should imo be the easiest castle to take.

Again, no idea about geography or walls, so can't say.

Agreed

Dornishmen don't get besieged... They leave their castles and fight with guerillia tactics, so there wouldn't be a siege ;)

No argument here.

A crown that is not bankrupt can import food from the sea,KL is hard to blockade unless you manage to take out the Crown's Navy.

500 men,Winterfell isn't particularly large,It's garrison capacity should be relatively small.

Arriane's chapter suggests that the defenders gave up.

Casterly Rock is built into a solid rock wall with it's back to the sea.

[Starfell]

King's Landing can't feed itself at the best of times, it was on the verge of starvation before Stannis' siege simply because it's dependent on a near constant supply of food from the Reach (and presumably the Riverlands). So we know for fact that it's incredibly vulnerable to having its supply lines cut. Its population is immense and it suffers from a very unfavourable ratio of civilians to soldiers unless it decides to expel some of the citizenry to preserve its stores.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

A crown that is not bankrupt can import food from the sea,KL is hard to blockade unless you manage to take out the Crown's Navy.

500 men,Winterfell isn't particularly large,It's garrison capacity should be relatively small.

Arriane's chapter suggests that the defenders gave up.

Casterly Rock is built into a solid rock wall with it's back to the sea.

Storms end had a sea blockade during the siege, in any case...

Besieging a castle located directly at the sea, without a sea blockade is more than useless...

KL is not located directly at sea, but in the mouth of a river that flows into the sea, this makes it even easier to blockade.

And even if you can get food to the city with ships, you can't get enough for 900.000 of which at least 850.000 would be commoners. If 800.000 start to starve, you have got a riot on your hand, no matter how good you dine in the RK and the commoners have a slight number advantage in KL.

KL is actually one of the castles that is easiest to besiege, due to geographical reasons, and starve out, because of the number of people living there.

[Blackfish1992]

Common sense is hard to use in the world of ASoIaF. The plants would have no chance of surviving winters that last decades. Food is somehow grown in fields up at Last hearth despite the fact there is almost always snow on the ground. There are dragons, and the towns are absurdly big given the general population and comparable time periods.

We have no idea how far south winter extends so we can't say with too much certainty that the Reach would still be growing crops, even if they are their output will be severely reduced, and their priority will be to feed their own citizens.

Food will be imported to KL but they will still have stockpiled a great deal before winter.

Yes but like maybe maximum for 2-3 months ...

And besides I think we can conclude that KL is easy to starve out because of large population.

[The BlackBear]

Yes but like maybe maximum for 2-3 months ...

And besides I think we can conclude that KL is easy to starve out because of large population.

Unless they had lots of warning to prepare, they wouldn't have enough provisions to last too long. But the city is so weak it wouldn't be too hard to storm it anyway.

[Riptide]

How come no one just digs under the castle walls?

[The BlackBear]

How come no one just digs under the castle walls?

It takes a hell of a long time, you'd need to start from a long way back, and go very deep to avoid moats dry and wet, and the walls will go under a fair amount, how do you know when you're under the walls? You'll need timber to keep the tunnel open. It was done historically, you'd dig under the walls hollow out as much as possible, using beams to support it all, then set fire to it, and hope the wall above collapses.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

How come no one just digs under the castle walls?

Should you defend a castle and a tunnel would appear in the middle of the yard, you would just have to pour down burning pitch and month of digging would be for nothing ;)

[Corvinus85]

Should you defend a castle and a tunnel would appear in the middle of the yard, you would just have to pour down burning pitch and month of digging would be for nothing ;)

Like The BlackBear says right above, digging under the walls was mainly done with the purpose of bringing down the wall, not to create a sneak in doorway.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

It takes a hell of a long time, you'd need to start from a long way back, and go very deep to avoid moats dry and wet, and the walls will go under a fair amount, how do you know when you're under the walls? You'll need timber to keep the tunnel open. It was done historically, you'd dig under the walls hollow out as much as possible, using beams to support it all, then set fire to it, and hope the wall above collapses.

Pretty sure this was what Redwyne was up to at Dragonstone, until Loras showed up and decided to take command.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Like The BlackBear says right above, digging under the walls was mainly done with the purpose of bringing down the wall, not to create a sneak in doorway.

It takes a hell of a long time, you'd need to start from a long way back, and go very deep to avoid moats dry and wet, and the walls will go under a fair amount, how do you know when you're under the walls? You'll need timber to keep the tunnel open. It was done historically, you'd dig under the walls hollow out as much as possible, using beams to support it all, then set fire to it, and hope the wall above collapses.

Does this actually work? Oo

Dig under a wall and burn some wood, which isn't burning particularly hot because it doesn't get to much oxygen, to bring down a castle wall with that fire? Curious, i guess i'll have to try that ^^