Westeros in Real History

[Azureguy]

This is my follow up to an older post about the different regions of Westeros representing different modern countries. (That thread can be found here http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/59125-what-country-does-each-kingdom-represent-historically/ )

However, I had a different take on the subject.

Westeros: I'd say Westeros as a whole represents England, while the Targaryen's represent the Normans. Just like pre-conquest Westeros, the different regions of England were once individual scandinavian kingdoms (much like the first men. You could even make the case that the Angles represent the first men, and the Andals represent the Saxons, both coming from the east to inhabit this land.) Subsequently, Aegon the Conqueror would represent William The Conqueror, who conquered England in 1066 at the Battle of Hastings and arose to the throne of England to unite the country.

Dorne: While this is a less fleshed out idea, Dorne, since it is distinctly unique to England, could represent The Iberian Peninsula (Modern day Spain). The Rhoynar then representing the Moors. (Some converting to Christianity, some keeping their own religion, etc)

The Wildlings: Scotland. George R.R Martin has even said that inspiration for the Wall came from Hadrian's Wall, a wall built by Emperor Hadrian (Creative, right?) in Roman-controlled Brittania (The roman term for Britain.) to protect what is now England from the "barbaric" Scots. Like Scotland, The Wildlings have less access to metal weapons and armor. Even their geography fits in this analogy, with Scotland/The Wildlings being directly north of Westeros/England.

The Free Cities: The Italian City States. After the fall of the Roman Empire, many of the great cities in Italy became their own city states, with their own specialization. (for example, Milan was famed for it's expertise in arms and armor.) This is practically identical to the Free Cities, who were once part of the Valyrian Empire and later rose as their own cities. The Free Cities even also have their own specializations. (Myrish Lenses, Lys' Whorehouses, Tyroshi dyes, etc.)

The Dothraki Sea: The Khanate of the Golden Horde. The Khanate of the Golden Horde was the successor to Genghis Khan's Mongol empire, and the predecessor to the Crimean Khanate.. (If you're wondering where the word "Khan" comes from: Khan, Khanate, King, Kingdom. WORDS!) The most obviously similarity is in the ruler's name. "Khan" in history is very similar to "Khal" in Westeros. But the similarities don't end there. Just like how Khalasar's chose a leader through contests of strength, so to did the Khanate originally have an elected monarchy. The Golden Horde were also historically nomads, who fought on horseback when possible.

Well, what do you think? I may update this thread periodically if anything else pops into my head.

[WinterKing]

I'd say that the dotrhraki are a mix of several nomad warriors, like the Huns, Mongols,the Turks(ancient ones),etc...

[The Phoenix Guard]

When I saw this post I thought it would be awful, but you make some pretty keen observations here! I particularly like the idea of Dorne, I was wondering where it might be inspired by, I thought possibly Brittany but your idea is much cooler.

HBO making the Vale Wales was a stroke of pure genius!

Asshai is clearly the Far East. Is anywhere like the Middle East do you think?

[TalalOfDorne]

Is anywhere like the Middle East do you think?

Dorne is probably the closest. But id prefer to compare them to Iberia under Muslim rule.

[All Starks go to heaven]

Maybe Slavers Bay for the Middle East?

[Fightbringer]

I'd say Westeros as a whole represents Britain, rather than England, most of the Kingdoms are mainly influenced by medieval england but a couple have certain influences from other countries thrown in there as well, eg the Vale and Wales or Switzerland, the Reach and France. The North is partially infleunced by Scotland too but i'd say that its culture is more northern english, and above all else just northern european medieval (its warmer in the south so most of the southern kingdoms have subtle cultural influence from more southern areas of europe) The Iron Islands are obviously the Vikings, who were prominent in Britain and around Europe for centuries, and Dorne is a mixture of mediterranean cultures. But overall i'd say all but the Iron Islands and Dorne are mostly british influenced

[bloody_mummer]

Your history is off and horribly simplistic. Britain was originally populated by a host of celtic tribes. Then the Romans came. Britain was then split into a Roman-British contingent and the unconqured celtic tribes. When the Romans left, the remaining Roman-British aristocracy hired the saxons to help defend against invasions by the picts (one of the northern celtic tribes). The Saxons turned on the Roman-British population and proceeded to take over the land and engage in genocide. The Roman-Brits were relegated to the western part of the island and eventually became the Welsh. The Saxons and Angles basically wiped out the picts. The vikings then appeared and took over much of the land that the Saxons had taken a few centuries earlier. Meanwhile, the irish started to migrate to what is now scotland, and developed into the Scotii or Scots. Then the Normans finally arrived.

So, your comparisons do not really pan out. On a superficial level, I guess you could analogize the Children of The Forest to the original celtic tribes; the First Men to the Saxons and Angles and the Targs to the Normans.

[Theda Baratheon]

I don't think you can make statements like ____ represents _____ more that certain things are inspired by certain real events or peoples.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

I was thinking Astapor and Yunkai were more like India or Egypt. Landscape wise not politically

[Dire Rabbit]

Your history is off and horribly simplistic. Britain was originally populated by a host of celtic tribes. Then the Romans came. Britain was then split into a Roman-British contingent and the unconqured celtic tribes. When the Romans left, the remaining Roman-British aristocracy hired the saxons to help defend against invasions by the picts (one of the northern celtic tribes). The Saxons turned on the Roman-British population and proceeded to take over the land and engage in genocide. The Roman-Brits were relegated to the western part of the island and eventually became the Welsh. The Saxons and Angles basically wiped out the picts. The vikings then appeared and took over much of the land that the Saxons had taken a few centuries earlier. Meanwhile, the irish started to migrate to what is now scotland, and developed into the Scotii or Scots. Then the Normans finally arrived.

So, your comparisons do not really pan out. On a superficial level, I guess you could analogize the Children of The Forest to the original celtic tribes; the First Men to the Saxons and Angles and the Targs to the Normans.

It's hard not to horribly simplify when you're going for a horribly simplistic analogy.

Here's my crack at it;

Children of the forest = pre-indo European inhabitants of Europe, builders of stone circles

The First Men = the celts

The Andals and the Rhoynar = the Volker Wanderung of the late roman/early medieval era

The Valyrians = Roman Empire, with the free cities being the various bastard successor states

Argon the Conqueror = William the bastard esque, just add incest.

The southerly areas of westeros are very high medieval Western Europe, with drone being a bit Taifa kingdoms Spain/eastern Mediterranean in style and outlook.

The iron islands are and obvious Vikings cognate (lordship of the isles abyone?) and the north and beyond the wall is very northern uk.

The Dothraki are an obvious amalgam of steppe cultures, with some plains Indian and African elements to their thing.

There's my attempt at over simplifying obviously, all of these cultures and histories have a twist to it, otherwise why wouldn't we just read history?

[Azureguy]

Your history is off and horribly simplistic. Britain was originally populated by a host of celtic tribes. Then the Romans came. Britain was then split into a Roman-British contingent and the unconqured celtic tribes. When the Romans left, the remaining Roman-British aristocracy hired the saxons to help defend against invasions by the picts (one of the northern celtic tribes). The Saxons turned on the Roman-British population and proceeded to take over the land and engage in genocide. The Roman-Brits were relegated to the western part of the island and eventually became the Welsh. The Saxons and Angles basically wiped out the picts. The vikings then appeared and took over much of the land that the Saxons had taken a few centuries earlier. Meanwhile, the irish started to migrate to what is now scotland, and developed into the Scotii or Scots. Then the Normans finally arrived.

So, your comparisons do not really pan out. On a superficial level, I guess you could analogize the Children of The Forest to the original celtic tribes; the First Men to the Saxons and Angles and the Targs to the Normans.

A couple of points on that.

1.) I know there were originally multiple celtic tribes, but this isn't really relevant to the point.

2.) You could equivocate the genocide with the genocide of the Children of the forest.

3.) To be completely honest, Brittania isn't my area of expertise, I am more of an expert on the Late Middle Ages to Early Modern Period (Especially when it comes to Britain.)

That said, you are correct, but I didn't mention the several migrations you mentioned, because we don't get any information on the beginning origin of the Wildlings.

There is one thing you missed though, You forgot to mention the Celtic tribes originally in modern day England, who were pushed north by Rome into what is now Scotland.

[thecryptile]

The Seven Kingdoms are similar to the medieval Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy (Heptarchy means government by seven and there were seven kingdoms).

I think the CotF are inspired by tales of fairies and elves rather than human cultures. Megaliths were attributed to fairies by medieval observers.

[Dire Rabbit]

Ancient pre-indo Europeans = builders of stone circles

Children of the forest = carvers of faces in trees

That was the comparison I meant to make. Very obvious that they have a similarity to the Sidhe, when Bran comes to them in the north they're living in a hollow hill ffs!

[Targaryen loyalist]

Some War of The Roses parallels:

Robert Baratheon = Edward IV of England

Ned Stark = Richard III (as it was described by Sharon Pelmann in her "The Sunne in Splendour" a book we know influenced GRRM)

Cersei Lannister = Elizabeth Woodville / Marguerite of Anjou

Aegon VI "Targaryen" = Henry Tudor

Tywin Lannister = Richard "the Kingmaker" Neville, Earl of Warwick

Tommen and Myrcella "Baratheon" = The Princes in the Tower

Sansa Stark = Elizabeth York (wife of Henry Tudor)

The Stanley family and the Duke of Buckinghamshire = Walder Frey / Roose Bolton

[Dryhtscipe]

GRRM already said that this isn't so. So it isn't so. Not sure what the point of discussing it is, beyond "something about X faction reminds me of Y historical culture".

[Targaryen loyalist]

I find strong connections between Aegon and Henry Tudor. From wiki:

" He attainted those who refused to submit to his rule, such as Jasper Tudor and his nephew Henry, naming them traitors and confiscating their lands. The Tudors tried to flee to France but strong winds forced them to land in Brittany, then a semi-independent duchy, where they were taken into the custody of Duke Francis II.^[4] Henry's mother, Lady Margaret Beaufort, was a great-granddaughter of John of Gaunt, uncle of King Richard II and father of King Henry IV.^[5] The Beauforts were originally bastards, but Henry IV legitimised them on the condition that their descendants were not eligible to inherit the throne.^[6] Henry Tudor, the only remaining Lancastrian noble with a trace of the royal bloodline, had a weak claim to the throne,^[3] and Edward regarded him as "a nobody".^[7] The Duke of Brittany, however, viewed Henry as a valuable tool to bargain for England's aid in conflicts with France and kept the Tudors under his protection.^[7]"r

This can fit with the whole Blackfyre plot of Aegon's being a female-line descendant of the Blackfyres.

[Azureguy]

Some War of The Roses parallels:

Robert Baratheon = Edward IV of England

Ned Stark = Richard III (as it was described by Sharon Pelmann in her "The Sunne in Splendour" a book we know influenced GRRM)

Cersei Lannister = Elizabeth Woodville / Marguerite of Anjou

Aegon VI "Targaryen" = Henry Tudor

Tywin Lannister = Richard "the Kingmaker" Neville, Earl of Warwick

Tommen and Myrcella "Baratheon" = The Princes in the Tower

Sansa Stark = Elizabeth York (wife of Henry Tudor)

The Stanley family and the Duke of Buckinghamshire = Walder Frey / Roose Bolton

I've made some of the same comparisons, although I find it difficult to compare Ned to Richard III. Tywin as The Earl of Warwick is a great one though.

[King Tam Stark]

Some War of The Roses parallels:

Cersei Lannister = Elizabeth Woodville / Marguerite of Anjou

Tommen and Myrcella "Baratheon" = The Princes in the Tower

nice work but regarding tommen and myrcella how does that equal the princes in the tower again? my history isn't great but is the sack of winterfell not (possibly also) based on the princes in the tower?

two princes believed dead and a mystery on who done it with somebody falsely believed to have done it, Richard III/theon.

regarding cersei equalling Elizabeth Woodville that would fit nicely as more evidence to her being a targ

Elizabeth Woodville the white queen believed to be a witch and in to magic and prophecies and the targs just love both

[King Tam Stark]

nice work but regarding tommen and myrcella how does that equal the princes in the tower again? my history isn't great but is the sack of winterfell not (possibly also) based on the princes in the tower?

two princes believed dead and a mystery on who done it with somebody falsely believed to have done it, Richard III/theon.

regarding cersei equalling Elizabeth Woodville that would fit nicely as more evidence to her being a targ

Elizabeth Woodville the white queen believed to be a witch and in to magic and prophecies/foretelling/visions and the targs just love both

[Alester Florent]

Your history is off and horribly simplistic... The Saxons turned on the Roman-British population and proceeded to take over the land and engage in genocide. The Roman-Brits were relegated to the western part of the island and eventually became the Welsh. The Saxons and Angles basically wiped out the picts. The vikings then appeared and took over much of the land that the Saxons had taken a few centuries earlier. Meanwhile, the irish started to migrate to what is now scotland, and developed into the Scotii or Scots. Then the Normans finally arrived.

That history isn't much less simplistic.

While the Brythonic cultural and linguistic legacy in England was largely eradicated, except in place names (which sometimes display an ignorance of the Brythonic language), the Anglo-Saxons tried to retain a connection to Rome, and certainly didn't genocide the Romano-Britons, as genetic studies of the English population have shown. Given his name, it's even possible that Cerdic, the founder of the House of Wessex, was himself a Briton. While the Anglo-Saxon migration was unusually large numerically, it seems more likely that, as with other Germanic tribes across the rest of Europe (and the Arabs in Africa and the Middle East), they settled among the existing population and annexed positions of power to their own people than that they just killed the existing population and took their land.

As well as Wales, and Cornwall, there also remained an independent "native" Romano-British group in the north in what later became the Kingdom of Strathclyde. Scotland as we now think of it was never really a homogenous entity before the early modern era, but the gradual political union of a group of peoples left over from Athelstan's unification of England - Scoto-Irish, Angles, Picts, Cumbrians and Vikings. Some of these people lost their distinctive identities, particularly in the Lowlands, but the idea that the Picts, say, were wiped out, is again pretty inaccurate.

On the subject of Westeros, the Wall is obviousy largely inspired by Hadrian's Wall, but Offa's Dyke might deserve a mention too. Really, any major fortification along a border between two nominally distinct peoples.