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The Last Hero tale by Old Nan foreshadows the deaths of ...


Lost Melnibonean

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Agreed.  Also in the shaggy dog story, it's the person trying to return the dog to owner, not the dog, who suffers the consequences.  So I'm expecting Davos not getting the reward he wants of northern support for Stannis for returning Rickon is going to be the shaggy dog story.    

So you think Wyman had his fingers crossed behind his back? 

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Is Rickon Wyman's liege lord?  Wyman knows Bran is alive.    

So the Lord of White Harbor, Warden of the White Knife, Shield of the Faith, Defender of the Dispossessed, Lord Marshal of the Mander and Knight of the Order of the Green Hand had his fingers crossed behind his back, and when Davos returns with Rickon, Lord Wyman will say that's not my liege lord. I don't think so. 

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So the Lord of White Harbor, Warden of the White Knife, Shield of the Faith, Defender of the Dispossessed, Lord Marshal of the Mander and Knight of the Order of the Green Hand had his fingers crossed behind his back, and when Davos returns with Rickon, Lord Wyman will say that's not my liege lord. I don't think so. 

How can Manderly say Rickon is his liege lord when he knows Bran is his liege lord (or maybe it's Jon pursuant to Robb's will but if you don't believe Robb named Jon his heir or that Wyman could've known about it, I don't want to muddy the discussion with it)?  Furthermore, Rickon doesn't suddenly lack value because he isn't a liege lord.  Rickon's claim is still stronger than Arya's, so he can still discredit the Boltons' claim on Winterfell without being its ruler.  

There's also the matter of Manderly saying, "I will swear fealty to King Stannis," which also gives his heirs a way to back out of supporting Stannis if Davos shows up to collect after Manderly's death.

 Manderly is capable of using subterfuge and loopholes in pursuit of his goals, and if supporting isn't Stannis isn't his goal, I can see him telling Davos that Rickon isn't his liege lord.    

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  • 3 months later...
On 1/17/2016 at 11:37 PM, Harlaw's Book the Sequel said:

How can Manderly say Rickon is his liege lord when he knows Bran is his liege lord (or maybe it's Jon pursuant to Robb's will but if you don't believe Robb named Jon his heir or that Wyman could've known about it, I don't want to muddy the discussion with it)?  Furthermore, Rickon doesn't suddenly lack value because he isn't a liege lord.  Rickon's claim is still stronger than Arya's, so he can still discredit the Boltons' claim on Winterfell without being its ruler.  

There's also the matter of Manderly saying, "I will swear fealty to King Stannis," which also gives his heirs a way to back out of supporting Stannis if Davos shows up to collect after Manderly's death.

 Manderly is capable of using subterfuge and loopholes in pursuit of his goals, and if supporting isn't Stannis isn't his goal, I can see him telling Davos that Rickon isn't his liege lord.    

To receive Rickon and then say, "Sorry I said, 'Bring back my liege lord, and I will swear fealty to Stannis,' and that's not my liege lord," would be less than honorable. To ensure his own death before Rickon is revealed, so that his heir can say, "Sorry, mate, you cut your deal with my pops," would be less than honorable. That House Manderly is willing to risk all to restore House Stark, and the lengths to which Wyman went to avoid violating the sacred laws of hospitality before butchering, cooking, serving, and eating the Freys, suggest that Lord Wyman of White Harbor, Warden of the White Knife, Shield of the Faith, Defender of the Dispossessed, Lord Marshal of the Mander and Knight of the Order of the Green Hand cares about the honor of his house. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Oh yeah, I should have noted the foreshadowing of Samwell's death in Jon II, Dance 7, when Jon notices the snow melting in Samwell's hair as he bids fairwell, and recalls the same thing when he bid farewell to Robb in jon II, Game 10. Arya recalled it too during the buildup to the Red Wedding in Arya VII, Storm 39. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On June 20, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

... Jojen, Hodor, Osha, Meera, Rickon, the Liddle they met on their way to the Wall, Sam, Gilly, and Gilly's baby. I don't believe this is crackpot and I'm amazed that I can't find earlier threads on it given the really wacky ideas that are out there.

 

First, ask yourself why GRRM had Old Nan tell part of the tale of the Last Hero, and only the part she told. OK, now consider this:

 

The last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions. For years he searched until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it.

 

Well, Bran sought the Three-Eyed Crow & found him among the COTF. Bran took one of the swords from the crypts of Winterfell. He did not travel on a horse but he did travel on an elk. He did not travel with a dog but he did travel with a dire wolf. And he did travel with or encounter directly exactly twelve human companions: Jojen, Hodor, Luwin, Osha, Meera, Rickon, the Liddle that fed them on their way to the Wall, Sam, Gilly, Gilly's baby, Coldhands, and Bloodraven.

 

Luwin and Coldhands are dead & Bloodraven is dying. Hodor & Meera are trapped in a cave surrounded by wights far beyond the Wall. Jojen might already be paste and if not, he's still in the same tight spot as Hodor & Meera. Given that Rickon named his dire wolf Shaggy Dog, we should expect him to die in some anticlimactic manner, along with Osha. The Liddle that helped Bran in the mountains could have been the man murdered at Queenscrown or he could be killed among Stannis's host. Sam & Gilly are in a war zone and how else would you expect Sam's part in the story to end? He wouldn't be expected to become a Maester and return to aide Jon at the Wall by the time of Dream, would he? That leaves Gilly's baby who's at the Wall where Melisandre thinks he is the son of the King Beyond the Wall and she might be in need of a little King's blood about now.

 

ETA I

 

In The Long Night, TWOIAF we learn that at least some of the Last Hero's friends may have only abandoned him. Nevertheless it seems obvious that the Last Hero is Bran as his direct encounter with 12 humans strongly suggests.

 

ETA II

 

The Liddle is definitely not the man murdered at QC. That man was old, 50-60. He was also on the Gift and Jon told Stannis that the Norreys were closest to the Gift and good friends of the NW, suggesting the murdered man may have been a Norrey.

 

I think Bran's Liddle is marching with Stannis's host though. The Liddle encountered by Bran was not personally described. But as far as we know old characters are described as old in ASOIAF. That probably means Bran's Liddle was not THE Liddle since THE Liddle had three sons, at least two of which were grown. Bran knew him for a Liddle because he wrapped some food for them in a green & white cloth and he wore a clasp of gold and bronze wrought in the shape of a pinecone. That the Liddle's clasp was gold and bronze clearly suggests that he was relatively affluent. I think it implies that he was one of the Liddle's sons. We know from the Appendix to Dance that the Liddle has three sons. The Big Liddle seems to be one of Jon's preferred brothers in the NW. We don't know anything about Little Liddle other than he's the youngest. But we do know that Morgan "Middle" Liddle was the northman who took down Asha at DW and continued on with Stannis to WF. Since he was wearing a byrnie of mail Asha assumed right away that he was a chief. Unfortunately she never notices a gold and bronze clasp. She noticed he was big, bald & bearded and fought with an axe. Unfortunately, none of those things are noted by Bran. But I did see these two similarities:

 

From Bran II, Storm --The Liddle took out a knife and whittled at a stick.

 

From The Wayward Bride, Dance --His axe was shivering her shield, cracking the wood on the downswing, tearing off long pale splinters when he wrenched it back.

 

I am thinking Middle Liddle will not survive the Siege of Winterfell.

 

ETA III

 

I wonder if this passage from The Dragontamer, part of the conversation between Drink & Quent before the roasting, relates back to the partial tale by Old Nan...

 

"Men die on grand adventures."

 

He was not wrong. That was in the stories too. The hero sets out with his friends and companions, faces dangers, comes home triumphant. Only some of his companions don't return at all. The hero never dies, though. ...

 

ETA IV

 

That's not crackpot at all...

 

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

 

ETA V

 

Arya X, Clash

 

Why seven adults and two pups? That specificity suggests some foreshadowing or symbolism. During the tale, we learn that three adult Starks were killed before Game: Rickard, Brandon & Lyanna. Then Benjen is presumed dead and the Ned loses his head. Later we see Robb switch heads with Grey Wind and Catelyn floating in the river before Beric raises her from the dead. That's seven dead adult Starks.

 

So which two of the four remaing Stark pups (Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon) will die? Please place your bets...

 

ETA VI

 

OK, this is a strrrrretchhh... Lord Manderly is trying to recover a prince--Prince Rickon, who just might be a shaggydog in this tale, one who will die uneventfully after high expectations. Well, another Lord Manderly was expecting a princess in the time of Jaehaerys, Princess Viserra to whom he was betrothed, but she died by mishap before arriving in White Harbor for the wedding...

 

Jaehaerys I, TWOIAF

 

ETA VII

 

This theory depends in large part on Shaggydog being a clue that Rickon's story eill end with his unclimatic death. Here is a very intriguing counterargument...

 

Wow. You have a lot of evidence here that Rickon will die/be a Shaggydog story. The bit from TWOIAF about the "wild" princess Lord Manderly was expecting is especially good. Then the lore about the black dog with the shaggy coat and green eyes pretty much solifldifies it for me. 

 

But I have disagree when you say that Rickon and Arya will be the two pups to die. Arya and Bran are two of the five "key players". It'll most likely be Sansa and Rickon who die.

And Arya's wolf, Nymeria, foreshadows big things for her, too. She's named after a queen and she rules a giant pack of wolves. That could mean a huge leadership position for Arya.

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1 hour ago, Joan Jett said:

Wow. You have a lot of evidence here that Rickon will die/be a Shaggydog story. The bit from TWOIAF about the "wild" princess Lord Manderly was expecting is especially good. Then the lore about the black dog with the shaggy coat and green eyes pretty much solifldifies it for me. 

 

But I have disagree when you say that Rickon and Arya will be the two pups to die. Arya and Bran are two of the five "key players". It'll most likely be Sansa and Rickon who die.

And Arya's wolf, Nymeria, foreshadows big things for her, too. She's named after a queen and she rules a giant pack of wolves. That could mean a huge leadership position for Arya.

Maybe it was Robb's babe who never got a chance to be born who was the second pup?

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On 6/20/2013 at 10:08 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

... Jojen, Hodor, Osha, Meera, Rickon, the Liddle they met on their way to the Wall, Sam, Gilly, and Gilly's baby. I don't believe this is crackpot and I'm amazed that I can't find earlier threads on it given the really wacky ideas that are out there.

 

 

 

Hi Ramsey, welcome to the boards:cheers:

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  • 2 months later...
On 5/23/2016 at 9:52 AM, Joan Jett said:

Wow. You have a lot of evidence here that Rickon will die/be a Shaggydog story. The bit from TWOIAF about the "wild" princess Lord Manderly was expecting is especially good. Then the lore about the black dog with the shaggy coat and green eyes pretty much solifldifies it for me. 

 

But I have disagree when you say that Rickon and Arya will be the two pups to die. Arya and Bran are two of the five "key players". It'll most likely be Sansa and Rickon who die.

And Arya's wolf, Nymeria, foreshadows big things for her, too. She's named after a queen and she rules a giant pack of wolves. That could mean a huge leadership position for Arya.

Did I say Rickon and Arya? I don't think I did. I can see reasons to expect any of the four to die, and I can see reasons to expect any of the four to live. 

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  • 4 months later...
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The hunting party returned near evenfall with nine dead wolves. Seven were adults, big grey-brown beasts, savage and powerful, their mouths drawn back over long yellow teeth by their dying snarls. But the other two had only been pups. - ACOK Arya

The fact that the wolves die "near evenfall" suggests that the two Stark children will die before the Long Night. The rest of the Stark children could still die during or after the Long Night. 

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Oh yeah, I should have noted the foreshadowing of Samwell's death in Jon II, Dance 7, when Jon notices the snow melting in Samwell's hair as he bids fairwell, and recalls the same thing when he bid farewell to Robb in jon II, Game 10. Arya recalled it too during the buildup to the Red Wedding in Arya VII, Storm 39. 

Then Sansa and Bran are also doomed.

Quote

A light snow was falling. Bran could feel the flakes on his face, melting as they touched his skin like the gentlest of rains... The joy Bran had felt at the ride was gone, melted away like the snowflakes on his face. - AGOT Bran 

Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover's kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. - ASOS Sansa

 

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11 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

The fact that the wolves die "near evenfall" suggests that the two Stark children will die before the Long Night. The rest of the Stark children could still die during or after the Long Night. 

I didna think this thread would get more depressing. 

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The Red Keep was full of cats: lazy old cats dozing in the sun, coldeyed mousers twitching their tails, quick little kittens with claws like needles, ladies’ cats all combed and trusting, ragged shadows prowling the midden heaps. One by one Arya had chased them down and snatched them up and brought them proudly to Syrio Forel... all but this one, this one-eared black devil of a tomcat. “That’s the real king of this castle right there,” one of the gold cloaks had told her. “Older than sin and twice as mean. One time, the king was feasting the queen’s father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin's fingers. Robert laughed so hard he like to burst. You stay away from that one, child.” - AGOT Arya

The black tomcat represents Jon, because he is also a black bastard and the real king of the castle. The 5 types of cats Arya describes represent the Stark children. "Quick little kittens with claws like needles" is Arya, "ladies' cats all combed and trusting" is Sansa, and so on. And Arya represents Death. One by one death comes to all the Stark children, and only after that does Jon die. 

They don't all have to die young, though. I could see at least one of them dying in an in an epilogue or something.

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  • 4 weeks later...

In another thread about the salty tear shed by the black gate, @Philpennsuggested that Bran from the future was watching Bran pass the Wall, and shedding the tear knowing that he would never leave his weirwood throne. But given that 

Spoiler

Hodor will be holding a door that I suspect will not be a Hobbit door to the cave of the three-eyed crow, but perhaps at Winterfell, 

I am thinking that Bran will leave that throne, on Hodor's back of course. 

So I would suggest that Bran sheds the tear knowing that his twelve companions will die. 

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