eggs Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 The object of the comparison is quite insubstantial here, though. The main point is that he draws a comparison between Lyanna's betrothed and her supposed rapist in the first place,which is only a testament to Ned's depression and Robert's fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Of course, they burned his father, strangled his brother, adopted his sister. What reason do you want for it ?Didn't you mean "abducted"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 which is only a testament to Ned's depression and Robert's fall.You serious? Robert did fall deep but still he was nowhere next to kidnapping and raping young girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I think the "Targareyn contrast" is another way to highlight the differences in opinion between Ned and Robert about what actually happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna.By all rights, Ned should hate the Targareyns with a burning passion; much more than Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 You serious? Robert did fall deep but still he was nowhere next to kidnapping and raping young girls.the heck are you talking about? it seems kinda obvious that Rhaegar didn't kidnap or rape Lyanna. At the very least that's probably not the story that Lyanna told Ned seeing as how he thinks it was her hot blooded nature that lead to her death. Why do you keep bringing that up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 the heck are you talking about? it seems kinda obvious that Rhaegar didn't kidnap or rape Lyanna. At the very least that's probably not the story that Lyanna told Ned seeing as how he thinks it was her hot blooded nature that lead to her death. Why do you keep bringing that up?Your phrasing about Ned's depression and Robert's fall as the reason for drawing the comparison was somewhat misleading, given that other posters mention kidnapping as a reason why Ned should hate Rhaegar. Sorry if I misread you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Provided that it was a kidnap (and if a kidnap, then not the romantic consensual style which Dany fancies for herself with Daario). See my post above - comparing a betrothed and a rapist is totally out of place, unless Ned knew that Lyanna was willing.No matter how willing Lyanna was it's a stain of dishonour that a married man like Rhaegar run away with the maiden daughter of one of his most important vassals. Sure, a civil war could have been avoided if Brandon had not been killed, and Lyanna had been returned instead. However that does not mean they'd Rhaegar, quite on the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 the heck are you talking about? it seems kinda obvious that Rhaegar didn't kidnap or rape Lyanna. At the very least that's probably not the story that Lyanna told Ned seeing as how he thinks it was her hot blooded nature that lead to her death. Why do you keep bringing that up?Because if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, Ned has no reason to hate Rhaegar in the first place, and doesn't seem to hate Rhaegar in the books either. Ned doesn't hate the Targaryens, with the sole exception of Aerys, who Ned has ample reason to hate indeed. But hate towards the entire dynasty, towards Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys, Rhaenys, Aegon? None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost Beyond the Wall Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 He despised Aerys for his slaughter of lord Rickard and Brandon, and I think he was a bit resentful that rhaegar kidnapped his younger sis but as a whole I think he was indifferent to the house Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 No matter how willing Lyanna was it's a stain of dishonour that a married man like Rhaegar run away with the maiden daughter of one of his most important vassals. Sure, a civil war could have been avoided if Brandon had not been killed, and Lyanna had been returned instead. However that does not mean they'd Rhaegar, quite on the contrary.Something's missing here, I'm afraid :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Your phrasing about Ned's depression and Robert's fall as the reason for drawing the comparison was somewhat misleading, given that other posters mention kidnapping as a reason why Ned should hate Rhaegar. Sorry if I misread you.I don't think Ned hated Rhaegar, but he wasin a fit of depression while thinking about how much Robert has made when he made the comparison. That does matter. Any other day it's the Demon of the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Something's missing here, I'm afraid :-)I'm going to start using "they'd Rhaegar" when I post on these topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Because if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, Ned has no reason to hate Rhaegar in the first place, and doesn't seem to hate Rhaegar in the books either. Ned doesn't hate the Targaryens, with the sole exception of Aerys, who Ned has ample reason to hate indeed. But hate towards the entire dynasty, towards Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys, Rhaenys, Aegon? None.Not sure if that is true. Look at Lancel and Cersei. Kevan is furious about Cersei corrupting his young and impressionable son. I doubt Ned would be fine with Rhaegar running off with his 14 year old sister whether she was willing or not. He does tell the story of how Robert crushed Rhaegar's chest often enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan12 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Didn't you mean "abducted"?yeah misspelling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Because if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, Ned has no reason to hate Rhaegar in the first place, and doesn't seem to hate Rhaegar in the books either. Ned doesn't hate the Targaryens, with the sole exception of Aerys, who Ned has ample reason to hate indeed. But hate towards the entire dynasty, towards Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys, Rhaenys, Aegon? None.dunno, Rhaegar was a grown ass man chasing after a 13 year old girl, abandoning his wife and causing a whole world of trouble. That's reason enough to hate him (even if Ned doesn't). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Not sure if that is true. Look at Lancel and Cersei. Kevan is furious about Cersei corrupting his young and impressionable son. I doubt Ned would be fine with Rhaegar running off with his 14 year old sister whether she was willing or not. He does tell the story of how Robert crushed Rhaegar's chest often enough.First and foremost, Cersei is a close blood relative for Lancel and had a duty towards him, which was not Rhaegar's case. And, not hating doesn't necessarily mean fully absolving, either. It's just that Ned seems a very just man even despite his emotional engagement, and distributes blame where it belongs ("her wolf blood led her to an early grave"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Like others have mentioned, the fact he disagreed with his king, and best friend, to save a Targaryen's life means he probably didn't hate the family as a whole. More likely just, Aerys, rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 dunno, Rhaegar was a grown ass man chasing after a 13 year old girl, abandoning his wife and causing a whole world of trouble. That's reason enough to hate him (even if Ned doesn't).We do not know any of these things well enough to make a judgement, while Ned very well might have the knowledge. We still don't know Rhaegar's motivation for eloping with Lyanna, we don't know if Elia was involved in Rhaegar's plans and how, although they definitely didn't love each other (and that cuts both ways...), and as for causing trouble, we have no idea how much trouble he expected, although I guess he didn't quite envision full-out war as the consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 First and foremost, Cersei is a close blood relative for Lancel and had a duty towards him, which was not Rhaegar's case. And, not hating doesn't necessarily mean fully absolving, either. It's just that Ned seems a very just man even despite his emotional engagement, and distributes blame where it belongs ("her wolf blood led her to an early grave").Rhaegar was the Crown Prince and had a duty to the realm. I don't think Ned hates him, but as others have said he would be very justified in hating him. Lyanna deserves some blame, but she was a 14 year old girl even if a capable fighter. She is not exactly going to defeat Rhaegar and Ser Arthur Dayne(deadliest knight in the realm) then drag them off to the Tower of the Joy. Rhaegar deserves more of the blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Rhaegar was the Crown Prince and had a duty to the realm. I don't think Ned hates him, but as others have said he would be very justified in hating him. Lyanna deserves some blame, but she was a 14 year old girl even if a capable fighter. She is not exactly doing to defeat Rhaegar and Ser Arthur Dayne(deadliest knight in the realm) then drag them off to the Tower of the Joy. Rhaegar deserves more of the blame.Unless, as LadyGwynfyhar proposed, what Rhaegar really did was saving Lyanna's life. Which would mean that indeed Ned would have no reason to hate Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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