Defending Daenerys (aDwD) (Long post)

[Ser Edmure Tully]

I think that's exactly what happened at the end of ADWD, the dragons plant no trees line. IMO, she has often been to merciful, which has held her back.

I hope so, for the sake of Meereen, and eventually Westeros, if she ever rules it. But I will wait until TWoW and we get some more examples of her ruling before I decide.

I hope the line you quoted is her learning from her mistakes, but that line alone ain't conclusive proof. I'm happy to be proved wrong in TWoW though, but for now, I see her as an inefficient and inconsistent leader.

[danm_999]

I think that's exactly what happened at the end of ADWD, the dragons plant no trees line. IMO, she has often been to merciful, which has held her back.

It does definitely seem like that moment was an important watershed for her character, both in understanding she needs to adapt how she rules, and understanding Westeros is where she needs to go.

[Florina Laufeyson]

his is my problem with her, because she doesnt know what it is she wants to be, and she is using an entire city as an experiment to try and figure it out

This is actually why i like Daario's influence on Dany. He keeps trying to show her a way to be. The way of her ancestors was pretty much "Take what we want, fuck the police." Dany, being a relatively moral person, is finding that way of thinking difficult. While i dont think this is a flaw of hers, it does get in the way of her political choices and leads to some gnarly outcomes. Daario tries to tell her "Be what you are." It seems that in the middle of the Dothraki Sea, she comes to some sort of conclusion. The outcome of that conclusion kind of spooks me but its exciting either way.

[Queen Elsa]

Staying in Meereen:

1) She decided that if "her people" stayed in Meereen that bit longer, that they might learn and grow stronger and live a peaceful life for a time before she would take them to Westeros.

She also doesn't want the newly freedmen of Meereen to be enslave again by their former masters.

2) Similarly, she decided that if her dragons had time to grow bigger and stronger that she might arrive in Westeros on dragonback, with three dragons that she could use as formidable weapons in the war to come.

She can only ride Drogon but I believe the other two will still have connection with their mother.

3) 1She felt that all she was doing in Slaver's Bay was sacking cities, and leaving nought but death and destruction in her wake. 2Had she decided to leave for Westeros, she likely would have lost a lot of her sword on the long journey, 3and the many freedmen who chose to stay would likely have been enslaved again.

1She is fire, and fire destroys but also creates things anew.2 I agree. 3 I know she doesn't want this to happen. The freedmen are free to choose to follow her but if not, they should defend their freedom.

4) She saw it as an opportunity to "test her wings", if you will. She thought that if she were to stay in Meereen for a time and rule, she might do a better job as Queen when/if she took Westeros.

Well, learning takes time.

Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon

:

Not so long after taking Meereen, Dany began to lose control over her dragons. It was not much a problem, until she was presented with the bones of a child that Drogon had supposedly killed and eaten. That is another issue up for debate, whether or not Drogon really had killed this girl, but let's just go with Dany's assumption that he had.

I don't think she lose control over her dragons. She only forgot who she was. The dragon knows who she is, but does she?

Now, it is perfectly understandable that Dany would begin to worry that the other two dragons would begin to feast on humans too, and so she had them imprisoned. While this was not the best course of action, and resulted in the dragons becoming rather angry, it was all Dany could really do, although that is open to discussion.

I agree and disagree with her decision about this.

Daario and Hizdahr:

Dany has been heavily criticized for her choice to bed Daario and marry Hizdahr, but should she really be judged for this?

All people are prone to judge..and prone to commit mistakes.

The Ruling of Meereen:

1) Daenerys did not have to stay in Meereen, but she did. One of the reasons that she chose to say, is so that she might rule the city. She wanted to better the lives of all living there, and give them a peaceful reign.

I agree with her choice to stay and understand her desire to look after her 'children", but I'm not happy she let the dragon become a slave. *sad face*

2) She may have made a few mistakes during her reign, but this was really not her own fault. She was under a lot of pressure, and this stress was made even greater when the Song of the Harpy continued to rage their shadow war, cutting down her people bloodily and promising a gruesome fate for any that supported her. She tried to stop them numerous times. Initially, she attempted to sweeten the deal, but eventually had to take hostages.

Her biggest mistake is not remembering who she is and letting others to mold her into someone who she is not. See? Drogon did not even recognize her in the Daznak's Pit.

3) Despite already having been forced/sold into a marriage in her youth, Daenerys married Hizdahr zo Loraq. Did she marry him for his fair appearance or for her love of him? Certainly not, for she could barely stand the man. No, she married him for Meereen. She married him so that the Sons of the Harpy would end their shadow war and that peace might be allowed in Meereen.

She married him for peace and her husband made her as one of them. I was happy though that she realized it was a mistake and throw that stupid floppy ears and tokar they made her wore. Finally, she is going to take over again.

Her Possible Ruling of Westeros:

1) When she arrived in Meereen, she was a "savage" of Westeros, a foreigner. The Ghiscari resented her blatant disregard for their "custom" of slaving, and especially resented her rule as she was a stranger to them, whispered to be no more than a "horselord's whore."

She needs this advice: Remember who you are, for surely the world won't. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.

In Westeros, she is Daenerys of House Targaryen. Targaryen, the House that forged the Seven Kingdoms into one and ruled over Westeros for nearly 300 years. The Targaryens are well known to both babes and old men of the Seven Kingdoms, and as good old Bob took the Throne by Rights of Conquest, they would not fault Dany for retaking her family Throne by Rights of Conquest.

I think she understands that when she goes to Westeros, she can't just go ask whoever is sitting the IT to hand her her fathers throne politely, that's why she needs an army. She mentions something like that in ASOS. So her bloodline won't win her the throne but by right of conquest.

2) As I have already said, Dany was not welcome in Meereen. She was resented, shunned, and the Ghiscari outright challenged her rule.

In Westeros, a Great House (Martell) has already sent their eldest male to wed her and help her retake the Kingdoms. The Martells are not the only ones who would welcome the return of the dragons, I do not doubt. The Targs may have the taint of madness in them, but many still remember the good Targaryens, those who were nothig but good for the Kingdoms. Many and more would still be loyal to the Targs and lets face it, not many are very pleased with Tommen sitting the Iron Throne, since those who rule in his name changed by the day thanks to Cersei.

Right now, she is not welcome anywhere. Anyway, her ancestor Aegon The Conqueror was not welcome in Westeros too, but still, "some regions and houses actively supported House Targaryen and others submitted voluntarily" (wiki). Aegon The Pretender can get some support instead - first come, first serve! But who knows? I'll borrow GRRM words - if you have some huge fire-breathing dragons, you can get people to accept a lot of things that they might otherwise have problems with.

3) Daenerys tried her best to be a good Queen in Meereen, but how well can you rule when all but few of your subjects despise you and plot to murder you?

Surely, some will say she did not do enough.

Daenerys possesses many things that a Queen should have; compassion, capability to learn, a resolute personality, she is both bold and strong and she believes in fairness and justice.

These qualities can't make her an effective ruler though, but maybe if she embrace her inner dragonness and show the people who is the boss...

As I have already stated, many in Westeros would welcome her. With the right council and Hand, she would be an excellent Queen of Westeros, at least IMO.

She won't be welcome in the beginning. But like Aegon The Conqueror who was not welcome when he first showed up but made King of Westeros and remembered in history as The Conqueror (not Usurper) after, she will be too - Aegon The Conqueror with teats.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

This is actually why i like Daario's influence on Dany. He keeps trying to show her a way to be. The way of her ancestors was pretty much "Take what we want, fuck the police." Dany, being a relatively moral person, is finding that way of thinking difficult. While i dont think this is a flaw of hers, it does get in the way of her political choices and leads to some gnarly outcomes. Daario tries to tell her "Be what you are." It seems that in the middle of the Dothraki Sea, she comes to some sort of conclusion. The outcome of that conclusion kind of spooks me but its exciting either way.

I completely agree, she says she's dragon, but when it comes down to dragon-work, she doesnt have the stomach for it, like Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys.

You are right about Daario, ridiculous though he may appear, at least he is pushing her in a direction, whereas Dany attempts to take a middle road that I'm fairly sure doesnt exist.

Again, I hope the quote Nictarion provided she has finally chosen the road to become "Aegon the Conquerer with teats" because that will be exciting as hell.

[LeBronn]

New to forum, search broken. Sorry if this point has been made ad nauseum.

I think Dany's travails, whether intentionally or not, mirror those of the U.S in the middle east. (really not looking to go political with this, just drawing parallells.)

She started her crusade (no pun) with good intentions. However, she's discovered that try as she might, she will never win the hearts and minds of these people. She'll never understand or embrace their ways, and they know and resent it. She turns her nose up at their delicacies and all but mocks their raiment. They use terrorist tactics to inspire fear and destabilize. While initially greeted as a liberator, many of those she freed chose to sell themselves back into slavery. When she left Astapor, she left behind a power vacuum which left the people worse off than before, allowing an innefectual self-serving butcher to take over. Her dragons are uncontrollable and kill innocents.

I'm sure there are more correlations that could be inferred, but I've only re-read once and was not taking notes.

The timeline could argue for this being intentional. The series began well before the wars began. But the 4th book was copywrighted in 2005 and the last in 2011, well into all of this. One could wonder if the long wait for aDwD was partially a result of revisions to Dany's story arc...

[Florina Laufeyson]

I completely agree, she says she's dragon, but when it comes down to dragon-work, she doesnt have the stomach for it, like Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys.

You are right about Daario, ridiculous though he may appear, at least he is pushing her in a direction, whereas Dany attempts to take a middle road that I'm fairly sure doesnt exist.

Again, I hope the quote Nictarion provided she has finally chosen the road to become "Aegon the Conquerer with teats" because that will be exciting as hell.

Yes it would! Dany does have to do something incredibly badass and unscrupulous to win me back in her favor. Just as long as she leaves my Starks and Davos alone!

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Just as long as she leaves my Starks and Davos alone!

She can burn Tyrion, Jaime and the entire Tyrell family for all I care, but I want the Starks, Davos and, of course Edmure, to end up in a good way :D

[Dany Girl]

1-You said there wasn't a single character who hadn't shown hypocrisy at some point.

Woah woah woah woah. We're doing some major goalpost shifting here, aren't we?

2-No kids, only leaders huh? What about, say Jon Arryn? What about Baelor Breakspear?

3. Actually, no. She felt bad about Drogo enslaving people to pay for her invasion of Westeros, but let's examine what she actually thought about it;

She then claims some of the women as her slaves (which is admirable in the sense that she protects them from rape), but that's still slavery.

Then, when she housed with Xaro Xoan Daxos in Qarth, and

So yeah, she didn't give those slaves she was gifted their freedom.

4. It's worth noting that Daenerys didn't truly decide to become abolitionist until she arrived in Astapor. She was fifteen. 5.It's also worth noting she commands the Unsullied to slay no child under twelve. I guess the 13, 14 and 15 year olds that hadn't figured out slavery was wrong yet are SOL.

1- Luwin and Gilly are side characters that we don't really know enough about to include in this discussion. Hypriocy is part of human nature so I'm sure they've done or said something at one point in their lives, stop grasping for straws.

2. Tommen is a child, and also a character we have little insight into. Give him time. He's a Lannister and now in the clutches of the Tyrells. It's only a matter of time until he becomes like them or dies. Jon and Balor are dead during this story so they don't count. But if you want to press it, Jon took an oath to protect the realm and support his king, then lead a rebellion. Whether or not action is morally right does not negate the oath breaking thus hypocrisy of the action.

3. She's just being realistic here. She feels bad about selling the slaves but has no other options. In Qarth, she's a guest. She doesn't have any power to change things. Those slaves were well taken care of as well, so she was able to overlook it even if she didn't like it.

4. This is true. This is also the first time she starts to take real control of the situation she's in. She isn't going along with her brother or husband. She isn't fleeing her dead husband's old blood riders in fear they will kill her and her people. She's not someone's guest. It's the first time she is actually attempting to stand up for herself as Queen. What is her first act? Freeing slaves and killing their slavers. Not a bad first act.

5. 13 in their cultures is pretty much considered grown adult. Not to mention there has to be a line somewhere. That's where she drew hers.

Dany has had a very different story than anyone else. Imagine what Stannis or Robb or Joffery or Tommen would do in her shoes? Would they have even attemped helping the slaves? I've never claimed Dany is perfect. I'm very aware she has flaws. I just don't find her any worse than anyone else (I'm talking about leaders here). In fact, she's the I only leader that shows any concern for the small folk what so ever. The rest walk over them, slaughter them, cause them to starve. So ye, of the available options I see Dany as a lesser of evils if you will. She's learning from her mistakes, and the mistakes of slavers bay will most likely not happen in Westros because they don't have slavers. I don't see her hanging lords up with their guts spilling out. She won't feel the need for that level of vengeance because they won't be hanging children to scare off her approach.

[jentario]

She doesn't leave for Westeros because she admits to herself that she does not know enough about rulling. She wants to "try and learn" in Meereen. I am sure its inhabitants are happy that they can serve her like that...

She doesn't leave for Westeros because she knew all her actions would be undone if she left- the cities she freed will be sacked, her people enslaved or put to the sword... She knew that if she would just sack these cities and leave them behind she would make them ripe for the taking and would leave them, and the people who had just called her "mother", in a much worse position than they were before she came. That's why she stayed, and I think whether she knew it at the time or not she was ready to abandon her hopes to take Westeros. I just hope something will make her change her mind in TWOW as early as possible, because there's only so much Slaver's Bay one can take...

[danm_999]

1- Luwin and Gilly are side characters that we don't really know enough about to include in this discussion. Hypriocy is part of human nature so I'm sure they've done or said something at one point in their lives, stop grasping for straws.

You did include them though. You said every single character had shown themselves to be hypocritical. Now you're trying to walk that back.

Own what you've said. Me pointing that out to you is not 'grasping at straws'.

2. Tommen is a child, and also a character we have little insight into. Give him time. He's a Lannister and now in the clutches of the Tyrells. It's only a matter of time until he becomes like them or dies.

So you're admitting he hasn't shown any hypocrisy yet then.

Jon and Balor are dead during this story so they don't count.

.......

Jesus christ, and you're accusing me of grasping at straws?

If dead characters don't count, why the hell did you include Robb and Renly as examples of hypocrisy that excuses Dany?

But if you want to press it, Jon took an oath to protect the realm and support his king, then lead a rebellion.

Did he? When? We don't know what oath Jon Arryn swore.

No words on Baelor Breakspear? He came off incredibly un-hypocritical in the Hedge Knight.

3. She's just being realistic here. She feels bad about selling the slaves but has no other options.

Umm, she could not have pushed Drogo into invading Westeros. She's the catalyst behind the need for ships, and thus the slaves to buy them.

In Qarth, she's a guest. She doesn't have any power to change things. Those slaves were well taken care of as well, so she was able to overlook it even if she didn't like it.

Ah so even though they were 'gifts' given to her, she couldn't have freed them, or asked Xaro to pay them a wage (even though this is exactly what she does in the khalasar).

And since they were well taken care of (which, BTW, it's never established how Xaro treats his slaves), it's ok that they're enslaved and that she looks the other way whilst they see to her every need?

4. This is true. This is also the first time she starts to take real control of the situation she's in. She isn't going along with her brother or husband. She isn't fleeing her dead husband's old blood riders in fear they will kill her and her people. She's not someone's guest. It's the first time she is actually attempting to stand up for herself as Queen. What is her first act? Freeing slaves and killing their slavers. Not a bad first act.

But wait, that's exactly my problem. If Daenerys didn't get to stand up for herself, had no appreciable agency and commit her first act until she was 15, doesn't it underscore the horror of killing elite Astapori kids who are 13, 14, 15? How come they didn't get the same amount of time as Dany to move out of the shadows of their parents and siblings as she did?

5. 13 in their cultures is pretty much considered grown adult. Not to mention there has to be a line somewhere. That's where she drew hers.

Woah woah woah woah woah.

First of all, you'll have to source this.

Secondly, are you saying it's ok for Daenerys to go by the mores of Ghiscari society when deciding which children die, but it's ok to abandon those mores in everything else? If she's imposing Westerosi or personal standards here, shouldn't it be the 15 or 16 year olds that are the cut off point? I thought we had established Ghiscari culture was repugnant enough that it needed to go, but we'll use it to decide 13, 14, 15 year olds die?

Thirdly, there didn't have to be a line. She merely could have told her Unsullied to kill only the soldiers, and the people holding the whips. She didn't have to kill everyone in a tokar.

Dany has had a very different story than anyone else. Imagine what Stannis or Robb or Joffery or Tommen would do in her shoes?

Ok;

Stannis: The moment Jorah suggested going to Slaver's Bay to buy Unsullied, Stannis would have told him no, as slavery is illegal and unjust.

Robb: The moment Jorah suggested going to Slaver's Bay to buy Unsullied, Robb would have told him no, as slavery is immoral and a sin in the eyes of the Old Gods.

Joffrey: The moment Jorah suggested going to Slaver's Bay to buy Unsullied, Joffrey would have erupted in ecstacy, likely paid happily for the slaves.

Tommen: Tommen would do whatever he was told. He would not be consulted.

So basically, I'd say Stannis and Robb would have rejected slavery as a means to take the Seven Kingdoms outright, which while it might seem terrible for the Astapori slaves on the face of it, it'd mean they'd at least be alive, which is not really something we can see for most of them after Daenerys is done with Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen. Most Astapori slaves from the pre-Daenerys era are dead from starvation, the Pale Mare, or from King Cleon, or the Yunkish siege that Quentyn Martell saw first hand.

In fact, she's the I only leader that shows any concern for the small folk what so ever.

Edmure Tully. Jon Snow. Ned Stark. Doran Martell. Beric Dondarrion. Davos Seaworth. Arthur Dayne.

And you mean the Westerosi small folk, right?

Because if so, the only time I can remember her ever thinking/talking about them is when she speaks to Jorah about Viserys chance at regaining the throne, and Jorah tells her that when the high lords want to play the game of thrones, the smallfolk just want to be left alone, and that they never are. Yet she later in the book decides to invade Westeros with an army of Dothraki (who aren't known for their gentle nature).

She seems totally indifferent to the idea of small folk. She may care for them when she gets to Westeros, but we've not seen that yet.

The rest walk over them, slaughter them, cause them to starve.

I gave you a list above of leaders who have been very good to the 'little people'.

[Toxspecific]

She doesn't know crap about Westeros or real killer politics. She'd have to be a Mary Sue if she is to learn how to rule in time for the next book.

As for other lords not caring about the smallfolk; its very in nature for the lords of that age and mentality, but Edmure definitely cares, Catelyn cares albeit being prepared to put other stuff ahead of the safety of the smallfolk, Tywin doesn't care at all, Ned cared, Stannis cares to some extent.

If anything, it would seem Dany doesn't care about the Westerosi smallfolk. She's takng 3 dragons she knows she can't control to Westeros? It'll turn villages into feeding zones.

[Rheagar Prime]

why i didn't really give dany much stick for her decision is the same way i don't give robb much stick. Teenagers that will eventually think with hormones instead of sense it was pretty obvious both would fuck up big time for me having so much responsibility at a young age. What makes it worse is that their are idealist too so bad things were bound to happen.

I can't blame her for wanting to learn how to rule, it makes sense but she should learn to listen 1st. The one that gave her sound advice about her ridiculous crusade in slaver's bay was jorah yet she never listened when all his advice to her was sound even to buy the unsullied. She didn't need to take the other cities but alas idealist who didn't want slavery. Don't see how she could possible commit to that and wanting to conquer westeros. Both are long term projects she should have just chosen one.

don't like daario, but as i said never had a problem with who she fucks since as i said teen hormones were bout to take over at some point. I do agree with her wanting to make her dragons bigger and find riders but conquering cities not good time management for that, maybe going to pentos with the unsullied wasn't such a bad idea the golden company would have been there waiting for her. Still glad aegon is there albeit i want them to marry and get a targ heir to continue the line. Seems thats gonna fail since she is willing to believe prophesy and vision over logic at time.

[The Prince of Ice]

I personally love Dany's storyline. Her decisions and mistakes make her more human, she's not a comically oversold hero like you have in most stories, and there are a few in these novels too. I would love nothing more than to see the Targaryen line restored as rulers of Westeros, but I could also be happy with her being the lead of a nation of freemen. She has been told all her life that Westeros is rightfully the Targaryen's, but she has discovered, on her own, that the people of Essos need her more than she needs a big Iron Chair, and the day may come when Westeros needs her but for the time being her people, her true people, need her most. And to anyone who hates any of the characters in this story my only question is this: Why keep reading? If you hate Dany, or Stan, or Jon or anybody else then you're all hating the same guy. There is no Dany or Stan, just Martin.

Couldnt have said it better myself, especially the part about hating characters.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

She's a teenage girl. I'm sorry, but any teenager, at all, should not be given sole responsibility of:

1. A populous city

2. 3, Weapons of Mass Destruction, in a world of crossbows and knights

3. An army that will follow her blindly.

She is under a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure that'd make a fully matured adult crack. I don't blame her, I don't want her as my queen, for certain, but I don't blame her for it.

[SeanF]

I think that's exactly what happened at the end of ADWD, the dragons plant no trees line. IMO, she has often been to merciful, which has held her back.

I think that's certainly the conclusion she's reached by the end of ADWD. My view is that she'll wipe out her Mereenese opponents, on returning to the city, and leave it under the control of the Shavepate, before leaving for Volantis and Westeros.

[therealbando]

I think that's certainly the conclusion she's reached by the end of ADWD. My view is that she'll wipe out her Mereenese opponents, on returning to the city, and leave it under the control of the Shavepate, before leaving for Volantis and Westeros.

I like this, but I think she`ll be making a stop in Pentos too...

It shall be the greatest test of Tommen's moral fibre!

As long as he has Ser Pounce as his Hand and Lord Commander of his King`s Guard, I have no doubt that Tommen come through and ban the monstrous snacks, called beets

[Rhaegarsjoy]

i hink dany is like cat before she was uncat, she was smart and if robb just listened to her so much could have been different and now shes been pushed to the point where she's just on "kill mode". Dany's kind and thats her weakness, you cant always save every last child sometimes you have to make hard decisions for the greater good. she's always saying she's a dragon but she needs to be one, i think she needs a lil maegor in there before she gets fed up and kills them all.

[SeanF]

I like this, but I think she`ll be making a stop in Pentos too...

Pentos would be an excellent base from which to invade Westeros.

[Toxspecific]

'Omg guys give her a break she's a teenager obviously she makes mistakes' I'm so tired of hearing this. Yes she is a teenager prone to making mistakes, but that is still a damn reason for not wanting her to rule a huge volatile continent. Westeros isn't her freaking testing ground for how to rule. She's a teenager with negligible Westerosi advisors, she'll come to Westeros and rule like a twat but all will be excused because 'she's just a teenager'.

That's like saying you should let your 6 year old kid drive the car, and when people say he can't drive the damn thing you say 'he's just 6 years old give him a break of course he's gonna make mistakes!'.