Do the Vale lords know Who Alayne Stone is?

[James Arryn]

Except that:

1. Cersei wanted Ned alive even when she thought they had possession of the girls. It wasn't a case of, "Well we have the girls, go ahead and execute Ned."

2. Robb was never going to trade Jaime for the girls together, let alone one, whereas a straight trade of Ned and Jaime was probably plausible.

1. The need to keep Ned alive would have been stressed much more if he was the sole guarantor of jaime's life. And Ned would not be confessing.

2. It's not about trading. It's about mutual assurance of proper treatment.

Edit: also, from a literary POV, I've always thought it was cool that Ned is ultimately defined by speaking words he says only because he's thinking about Sansa and Sansa is defined (at the time) by speaking words she says only because she's also thinking about Sansa.

[Joseph Nobles]

Here's a thought - if they know Alayne is Sansa, why would the Lords of the Vale assume that she is Littlefinger's victim? What would stop them from thinking that Baelish and Sansa were lovers and murdered Joffrey and then Lysa together?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Here's a thought - if they know Alayne is Sansa, why would the Lords of the Vale assume that she is Littlefinger's victim? What would stop them from thinking that Baelish and Sansa were lovers and murdered Joffrey and then Lysa together?

That might be why Randa is doing some verbal digging.

[James Arryn]

Back on topic, I had never noticed that comment by Lady Waynwood before. I can't recall, does Sansa's cover story involve any fictitious tragedy? Otherwise, that's pretty definitive.

[MasterJack]

Sansa's actions had only 1 concequences: it forced Ned to lie and to say Joff was the rightful heir.

If Ned knew both his girls were save, he would have been happy to die after saying aloud: FREEEDOMM STANNNIISSS.

Sansa did nothing evil, she was a little girl and Ned was doomed anyway, only some servants and Ned's men where more easily found and killed because of her. who cares about them, not me.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Back on topic, I had never noticed that comment by Lady Waynwood before. I can't recall, does Sansa's cover story involve any fictitious tragedy? Otherwise, that's pretty definitive.

Couldn't it just refer to her seeing Lysa, her stepmother, tossed out the Moon Door? I know they blame it on the musician, but isn't the cover story that they, at least Alayne, saw it happen? I agree that it's kind of a weird choice of phrase, but I also think that it could plausibly refer to Lysa's death.

[James Arryn]

Couldn't it just refer to her seeing Lysa, her stepmother, tossed out the Moon Door? I know they blame it on the musician, but isn't the cover story that they, at least Alayne, saw it happen? I agree that it's kind of a weird choice of phrase, but I also think that it could plausibly refer to Lysa's death.

Yeah, probably. I think that must have been what I thought at the time, because otherwise it's huge.

But I agree Royce seems formidable, and his daughter did the classic 'lure you with chatter then hit you off guard' thing. And we're told she's smarter than she seems.

I am becoming more convinced they know, at any rate. Looking forward to the new thread. Apple, do you remember Tze's thread title, by any chance?

[bloodofwinterfell]

And if Ned had had any sense, he wouldn't have told his daughters anything until it was time to load them onto the boat. He had already seen that Sansa tended to side with Joffrey and the queen. Furthermore, pre-teen girls — both Sansa and Arya — are notorious motormouths. Sansa ran and told Cersei because that's what 11-year-old Sansa would obviously have done. But Ned, not Sansa, was the grown-up here and he's the one who should have been more stingy with the information.

Mmm OK then, I'll let you off. :) It's still completely unreasonable to bash her for it though.

Just to clarify, I agree with both of you. I don't know if I was wording my opinion properly but what I was trying to get at is that while Sansa did play a role, it was very minimal and I don't hold it against her. Sansa was young and unprepared for the game of thrones. And besides that, I think Ned, Cersei, Littlefinger, Joffrey, and Janos Slynt were much more influential in what happened; what Cersei told Tyrion about Sansa is total BS.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, probably. I think that must have been what I thought at the time, because otherwise it's huge.

But I agree Royce seems formidable, and his daughter did the classic 'lure you with chatter then hit you off guard' thing. And we're told she's smarter than she seems.

I am becoming more convinced they know, at any rate. Looking forward to the new thread. app,e, do you remember Tze's thread title, by any chance?

No, I don't know it. And actually I think it's buried in a Pawn to Play thread but who knows which one. Like I said, Bumps and DP are/were working on a Vale thread that nails down a lot of this, but I have no idea if they're still working on it or when it'll be posted.

[bloodofwinterfell]

I am becoming more convinced they know, at any rate. Looking forward to the new thread. Apple, do you remember Tze's thread title, by any chance?

I'm not sure what Apple Martini is referring to, but this post by Tze makes me think they know Alayne is Sansa.

[James Arryn]

No, I don't know it. And actually I think it's buried in a Pawn to Play thread but who knows which one. Like I said, Bumps and DP are/were working on a Vale thread that nails down a lot of this, but I have no idea if they're still working on it or when it'll be posted.

Ok, cheers anyway. The new one should be good. :)

[James Arryn]

I'm not sure what Apple Martini is referring to, but this post by Tze makes me think they know Alayne is Sansa.

Hey, thanks!

One further thought that occurs and Tze's post underlined: Royce is sharp. Royce gives Sansa an opportunity to reveal herself to him and she lies. Royce's daughter sees her away from LF and she still sticks to the script. So one of the many things he may be mulling is her motivations/role/guilt.

We know LF has her kinda screwed up and thinking he's her only hope, but he might not think that. He might see it as one of several possibilities. And he will certainly be assuming that her loyalties now lie with LF.

So he might not be thinking of 'rescuing' her as much as he is of taking possession.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not sure what Apple Martini is referring to, but this post by Tze makes me think they know Alayne is Sansa.

Oh good, you found it.

The thing about Tze's post that is a huge ringer for me is that Lady Waynwood would never have the heir to the Vale marry a bastard. And as she also pointed out, if Anya's worried about debt, arrange for a big damn dowry. Problem solved or at least alleviated. The only way that Anya's agreement to marry "Alayne" to Harry is if she knows who Alayne really is. The debt doesn't adequately explain it. We also see the marriage between the merchant's daughter and Lyonel Corbray, where a huge dowry has to be exacted and most of the lords shun the marriage. If that's what happens to that couple, imagine the outcry if the heir-presumptive of the entire Vale marries a bastard.

It also wouldn't surprise me if the last-minute attendance of Anya, the Knight of Ninestars and the other lords was to plot at the wedding, and not to show any support or solidarity for Baelish.

[l2 0 5 5]

I think he might've told lady waynwood, otherwise why would she've arranged a marriage between the heir to the vale and a Lowborn Lord's bastard

Well put.... :agree:

[Slugabed]

Well put.... :agree:

I thought it was motivated by money, LF was going to help her financially in return for the marriage?

Here's a thought - if they know Alayne is Sansa, why would the Lords of the Vale assume that she is Littlefinger's victim? What would stop them from thinking that Baelish and Sansa were lovers and murdered Joffrey and then Lysa together?

This is my line of thinking. What we know and what they know are two completely different things. From their POV, Jon Arryn is dead, Lysa Arryn is dead and a stranger (from a lesser house and with strong ties to KL) is lord over them and has custody of the heir. Anyone would make it their business to know everything about these people. They would have a million questions. Did she or did she not kill the king? Are Sansa and LF lovers who plotted Joffrey's murder together? Perhaps LF would be able to convince them that he is protecting Sansa from the evil lannisters, as he has managed to convince Sansa of herself. I try to put myself in their shoes, they have to deal with LF in The Eyre, it would make sense that they're going to make Alayne their business.

ETA: opos quoted th wrong comment...

[mambru]

But I agree Royce seems formidable, and his daughter did the classic 'lure you with chatter then hit you off guard' thing. And we're told she's smarter than she seems.

I don't think Miranda Royce is Bronze Yohn Royce's daughter. She's Nestor Royce's daughter. And Nestor Royce is an altogether less formidable guy. LF thinks he has Nestor completely under control because LF granted him control of the Gates of the Moon Keep - but signed the order himself, so that if Nestor causes LF's fall he himself will lose his own lordship. So LF thinks Nestor is now his faithful tool. On the surface, then, Miranda has a motive to prop up Littlefinger, not tear him down - because her dad has the Gates of the Moon only because LF granted them to him, and may lose them if LF falls. OTOH, Miranda seems to be a lot smarter than her dad and probably realizes LF may fuck them over somehow as he's rather publicly fucked over Ned, and she seems to be casting about for some weakness of LF she could use against him if needed. So I don't think we can take it for granted that she's working with Bronze Yohn, or be on his side - though that 'careless' mention of Ned's bastard WAS awfully specific.

Myranda might be a free agent, and may decide that going along with dad in propping up LF will be the winning strategy after all. However, I prefer to think otherwise...after all, Mya's her friend, and that sounds like a good character reference to me.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think Miranda Royce is Bronze Yohn Royce's daughter. She's Nestor Royce's daughter. And Nestor Royce is an altogether less formidable guy. LF thinks he has Nestor completely under control because LF granted him control of the Gates of the Moon Keep - but signed the order himself, so that if Nestor causes LF's fall he himself will lose his own lordship. So LF thinks Nestor is now his faithful tool. On the surface, then, Miranda has a motive to prop up Littlefinger, not tear him down - because her dad has the Gates of the Moon only because LF granted them to him, and may lose them if LF falls. OTOH, Miranda seems to be a lot smarter than her dad and probably realizes LF may fuck them over somehow as he's rather publicly fucked over Ned, and she seems to be casting about for some weakness of LF she could use against him if needed. So I don't think we can take it for granted that she's working with Bronze Yohn, or be on his side - though that 'careless' mention of Ned's bastard WAS awfully specific.

Myranda might be a free agent, and may decide that going along with dad in propping up LF will be the winning strategy after all. However, I prefer to think otherwise...after all, Mya's her friend, and that sounds like a good character reference to me.

The issue is that Robert Arryn is now no longer in the Eyrie, but at the Gates of the Moon. Nestor's castle. The Royces are now in the possession of Robert's person, which is, I think, a big distinction. As in, if they have Robert in their custody, they don't necessarily have to rely on Baelish's good graces anymore.

[Mithras]

“Lady Lysa was so wise, to keep us out of it [The Wot5K].”

Myranda gave her a shrewd little smile. “Yes, she was the very soul of wisdom, that good lady.” She shifted her seat. “Why must mules be so bony and ill-tempered? Mya does not feed them enough. A nice fat mule would be more comfortable to ride. There’s a new High Septon, did you know? Oh, and the Night’s Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark’s.”

“Jon Snow?” she blurted out, surprised.

“Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose.”

This part of their speech is very curious. I think Randa was already assuming that Alayne is Sansa. She was very surprised to hear first line because normally Sansa should desire that the Vale should join Robb's army and fight for him. In fact she thinks exactly like that but this lie caught Randa off-guard so Randa went for a quick kill, bringing up Jon sooner than she planned. If Sansa could keep her emotions regarding Jon to herself, she would never blurt out Jon and her identity may remain hidden. The second line shouts as "I am Sansa Stark", so Randa is relieved.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

“Lady Lysa was so wise, to keep us out of it [The Wot5K].”

Myranda gave her a shrewd little smile. “Yes, she was the very soul of wisdom, that good lady.” She shifted her seat. “Why must mules be so bony and ill-tempered? Mya does not feed them enough. A nice fat mule would be more comfortable to ride. There’s a new High Septon, did you know? Oh, and the Night’s Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark’s.”

“Jon Snow?” she blurted out, surprised.

“Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose.”

This part of their speech is very curious. I think Randa was already assuming that Alayne is Sansa. She was very surprised to hear first line because normally Sansa should desire that the Vale should join Robb's army and fight for him. In fact she thinks exactly like that but this lie caught Randa off-guard so Randa went for a quick kill, bringing up Jon sooner than she planned. If Sansa could keep her emotions regarding Jon to herself, she would never blurt out Jon and her identity may remain hidden. The second line shouts as "I am Sansa Stark", so Randa is relieved.

Yes. The fishing expedition for Jon only makes sense if Randa already suspected Sansa's true identity. Because otherwise, she'd have no way of knowing that bringing up Jon would strike a chord.

[Petyr Patter]

I can readily accept that a handful of the Vale nobility have figured out her identity. However, knowing Sansa's identity doesn't really help the Lords of the Vale, and probably doesn't help Sansa. The best way for the Littlefinger's enemies to use this information is to let Cersei and King's Landing know Littlefinger is harboring Sansa. Then team up with the men Cersei or Mace would send to bring both "to justice." An attainted Littlefinger would soon be dead or fled. On the otherhand, power in King's Landing is rapidly deteriorating.

Would Yohn Royce do such a thing? Maybe, I think readers have taken for granted he would be ardent supported of the Starks. Really, if Sansa is helping Baelish take over the Vale, then what exactly does he owe the Starks?

Other than that, what else would they do with Sansa? Send her back to her family? More likely just marry her off to a Vale Lord.