Do the Vale lords know Who Alayne Stone is?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I can readily accept that a handful of the Vale nobility have figured out her identity. However, knowing Sansa's identity doesn't really help the Lords of the Vale, and probably doesn't help Sansa. The best way for the Littlefinger's enemies to use this information is to let Cersei and King's Landing know Littlefinger is harboring Sansa. Then team up with the men Cersei or Mace would send to bring both "to justice." An attainted Littlefinger would soon be dead or fled. On the otherhand, power in King's Landing is rapidly deteriorating.

Would Yohn Royce do such a thing? Maybe, I think readers have taken for granted he would be ardent supported of the Starks. Really, if Sansa is helping Baelish take over the Vale, then what exactly does he owe the Starks?

Other than that, what else would they do with Sansa? Send her back to her family? More likely just marry her off to a Vale Lord.

Given that Sansa still has, as far as they know, prime inheritance to Winterfell, they would have to be complete and utter idiots to clue Cersei or anyone else in King's Landing in to the fact that she's in the Vale and that Baelish has been harboring her. In that case, she either gets hauled back to King's Landing to face a trial for murdering Joffrey, or gets remarried to some other Lannister so they can reassert her claim to Winterfell. The Vale doesn't get shit out of it. You ask what they would do with Sansa, as if the Vale lords could actually keep her once they'd ratted out Baelish. Keeping the secret to themselves while 1. working to bring down Baelish and 2. maintaining custody of Sansa makes far more sense. There are ways to bring Baelish down without taking heat from the Iron Throne and I think we'll see them play out.

[Sansa_Stark]

Sansa's actions had only 1 concequences: it forced Ned to lie and to say Joff was the rightful heir.

If Ned knew both his girls were save, he would have been happy to die after saying aloud: FREEEDOMM STANNNIISSS.

Sansa did nothing evil, she was a little girl and Ned was doomed anyway, only some servants and Ned's men where more easily found and killed because of her. who cares about them, not me.

I don't think Ned was doomed anyways.

"He has to confess and say I'm the king, or there will be no mercy for him."

Eddard's confession was a big deal I think. I think Joffrey wouldn't have executed him if it weren't for this.

Who knows though?

And plus, you have Varys and Cersei who didn't want The Ned to die.

If Joff ever gave the order to have the Ned die, Varys would most likely know about it immediately(I mean, look at his Rugen persona, he knows those cells) and relay it to Cersei.

And didn't Cersei have a hard time calling off his death and made a big deal of it because he went in front of a crowd?

Without a confession, this won't apply to Ned.

[hardhome]

Actually 2 of the worst kept secrets in the Vale are that Lysa (their former regent) was infatuated with LF when she was younger and she didn't come to the marriage a maid, so... The Tully looks + Lysa's acceptance + LF bastard = Lysa + LF = AS

[Mithras]

Actually 2 of the worst kept secrets in the Vale are that Lysa (their former regent) was infatuated with LF when she was younger and she didn't come to the marriage a maid, so... The Tully looks + Lysa's acceptance + LF bastard = Lysa + LF = AS

So you say that the Vale lords think that Alayne is bastard of LF and Lysa. Jon Arryn was an old man but I dont think he was old enough to not realize his wife getting pregnant and birthing a child. Because Lysa was in KL and married to Jon Arryn when Sansa/Alayne was born.

[Le Cygne]

I think most of them know she's Sansa, Bronze Yohn and Myranda are too smart to miss it, and there are those indications in the text, and that's why the Mad Mouse is there, too.

[Mithras]

Given that Sansa still has, as far as they know, prime inheritance to Winterfell, they would have to be complete and utter idiots to clue Cersei or anyone else in King's Landing in to the fact that she's in the Vale and that Baelish has been harboring her. In that case, she either gets hauled back to King's Landing to face a trial for murdering Joffrey, or gets remarried to some other Lannister so they can reassert her claim to Winterfell. The Vale doesn't get shit out of it. You ask what they would do with Sansa, as if the Vale lords could actually keep her once they'd ratted out Baelish. Keeping the secret to themselves while 1. working to bring down Baelish and 2. maintaining custody of Sansa makes far more sense. There are ways to bring Baelish down without taking heat from the Iron Throne and I think we'll see them play out.

I think they could easily arrest LF if Sansa had revealed herself and testified against LF in murder of Lysa and Jon and even maybe in fake letter sent to Cat. And they could use the argument that Sweetrobin as her cousin and Lord of the Vale has the right to take care of her until she turns 16. Of course that means Bronze Yohn will keep Sansa as the Lord Protector of the Vale. They could even reject all charges and claim that LF was responsible from Joffrey's murder since he is revealed to be a filthy scum, which he is. If Sansa is clever enough to remember every detail, they can even realize that the Tyrells were also a part of Joffrey's murder. Reporting this information to already-paranoid Cersei brings much chaos in KL.

[Slugabed]

Actually 2 of the worst kept secrets in the Vale are that Lysa (their former regent) was infatuated with LF when she was younger and she didn't come to the marriage a maid, so... The Tully looks + Lysa's acceptance + LF bastard = Lysa + LF = AS

I thought Lysa was pregnant before her marriage with Jon Arryn?

ETA sorry meant to quote the other quote. Oh ...nevermind...

[hardhome]

So you say that the Vale lords think that Alayne is bastard of LF and Lysa. Jon Arryn was an old man but I dont think he was old enough to not realize his wife getting pregnant and birthing a child. Because Lysa was in KL and married to Jon Arryn when Sansa/Alayne was born.

If I am reading the timelines correctly there are some instances where Lysa and Jon are separated for more than a year. Lysa has had multiple lost children. Jon might have been clever enough to do the math on at least 1 of these children and figure out it isn't his. Where would he "get rid" of them? Winterfell seems the logical choice putting her in the care of her aunt, and in a place the Vale lords didn't know about. We know Jon Arryn had no trueborn children but maybe he had his own bastards that he had done something similar with.

Enter Petyr Baelish, well known pimp, took charge of some females from Winterfell after Eddard Stark's arrest. She knows the name of Ned's bastard. She does not seem like a sex worker despite LF's business ventures. and uses "my lady" when flustered by Waynwood implying she was brought up in a court environment. Its not a completely illogical conclusion.

[Mithras]

If I am reading the timelines correctly there are some instances where Lysa and Jon are separated for more than a year. Lysa has had multiple lost children. Jon might have been clever enough to do the math on at least 1 of these children and figure out it isn't his. Where would he "get rid" of them? Winterfell seems the logical choice putting her in the care of her aunt, and in a place the Vale lords didn't know about. We know Jon Arryn had no trueborn children but maybe he had his own bastards that he had done something similar with.

Enter Petyr Baelish, well known pimp, took charge of some females from Winterfell after Eddard Stark's arrest. She knows the name of Ned's bastard. She does not seem like a sex worker despite LF's business ventures. and uses "my lady" when flustered by Waynwood implying she was brought up in a court environment. Its not a completely illogical conclusion.

First of all I dont recall any long absence of Jon Arryn. And I am afraid this is a completely illogical solution. You are suggesting that LF and Lysa made a bastard child in KL in the long absence of Jon and send the baby to Winterfell. And nobody cared to wonder how did Lysa's belly swelled and returned to normal in the absence of her husband. And sending her to Winterfell where no Vale lords dont know? What connection does LF have in WF so that he can send his bastard child to be raised by some people secretly? Bronze Yohn went to Winterfell and saw Sansa. He later saw her in KL and he spent a significant amount of time in KL. He remembers.

[complexphoenix]

Don't want to derail. Liking the discussion before the sidetrack.

BUT, for those looking for sansa's role in Ned's fate: Sansa gives away the timing of Ned's effort to get the girls out. Even if you believe that has no effect on them getting Ned, it certainly helped them get Sansa, and as far as the Starks know, Arya.

Without whose possession they would be unable to execute Ned because the Starks hold Jaime. And without whose possession Ned does not confess.

But they have Sansa (and, in theory, Arya) which is collateral for Jaime. So they don't need to keep Ned as a bargaining chip.

Edit: kinda ninja'd. I've always found it interesting that people need Sansa to be exonerated so much they come up with odd 'Cersei lied about this part of her recap for no reason' kind of reasoning.

My understanding is that news of Jaime's capture reached KL after Ned was executed, since Tyrion and Tywin are already aware of Ned's death when news of Jaime's capture reaches them in Tyrion's final AGOT chapter. With that said, Ned's confession provided Joffrey the opportunity to execute him, and if Cersei didn't hold Sansa she could not have intimidated Ned into giving it. With that said, there's no way Sansa could have foreseen any of this.

[Le Cygne]

And if Ned had made sure his daughters were safe before telling Cersei... We can go back to that, too.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think they could easily arrest LF if Sansa had revealed herself and testified against LF in murder of Lysa and Jon and even maybe in fake letter sent to Cat. And they could use the argument that Sweetrobin as her cousin and Lord of the Vale has the right to take care of her until she turns 16. Of course that means Bronze Yohn will keep Sansa as the Lord Protector of the Vale. They could even reject all charges and claim that LF was responsible from Joffrey's murder since he is revealed to be a filthy scum, which he is. If Sansa is clever enough to remember every detail, they can even realize that the Tyrells were also a part of Joffrey's murder. Reporting this information to already-paranoid Cersei brings much chaos in KL.

And the Tyrells would say she was lying to save herself and most people are going to believe them over her. Given who she is, what she's accused and her value as an heiress, there is no way that the Iron Throne would allow her to stay in the Vale if the Vale lords tipped off the Lannisters about where she was. None. Which is why the idea of the Vale lords publicly outing Baelish and Sansa to the Iron Throne makes no sense. The smart thing would be to keep it quiet and handle it internally, so that Baelish goes down but that Sansa's whereabouts aren't made public.

[Sansa_Stark]

And if Ned had made sure his daughters were safe before telling Cersei... We can go back to that, too.

Its fine to blame Ned for his stupidity, but I think there's a problem using this "Ned would have died anyways" logic.

We don't know that for certain. Like I said, there is Varys and Cersei to contend with. They wanted a living, tame wolf.

[Sansa_Stark]

sorry, posted something in the wrong topic

[Petyr Patter]

And the Tyrells would say she was lying to save herself and most people are going to believe them over her. Given who she is, what she's accused and her value as an heiress, there is no way that the Iron Throne would allow her to stay in the Vale if the Vale lords tipped off the Lannisters about where she was. None. Which is why the idea of the Vale lords publicly outing Baelish and Sansa to the Iron Throne makes no sense. The smart thing would be to keep it quiet and handle it internally, so that Baelish goes down but that Sansa's whereabouts aren't made public.

You are overstating her value as an heiress. Nothing short of an army could install her in Riverrun or Winterfell.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You are overstating her value as an heiress. Nothing short of an army could install her in Riverrun or Winterfell.

...which the Vale has. Completely unscathed. And the North and the Riverlands is itching for a Stark to return.

The Iron Throne would see a clear and present threat to itself in Sansa. With good reason.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

...which the Vale has. Completely unscathed. And the North and the Riverlands is itching for a Stark to return.

The Iron Throne would see a clear and present threat to itself in Sansa. With good reason.

I agree. Another point-- while hardly unscathed, the Riverlands forces are not as decimated as most would believe. Prior to the RW the Lords of the Trident returned to their own lands to hold the Riverlands. Aside from Seagard, Raventree Hall and Riverrun, most surrendered quickly and did not endure prolonged battles or sieges after the destruction of the northern forces with Robb. While I believe the Riverlands will be tightly focused on revenge in the near future, there is a lot of potential for a major gathering of strength yet to parallel the levies of RR.

And the Tyrells would say she was lying to save herself and most people are going to believe them over her. Given who she is, what she's accused and her value as an heiress, there is no way that the Iron Throne would allow her to stay in the Vale if the Vale lords tipped off the Lannisters about where she was. None. Which is why the idea of the Vale lords publicly outing Baelish and Sansa to the Iron Throne makes no sense. The smart thing would be to keep it quiet and handle it internally, so that Baelish goes down but that Sansa's whereabouts aren't made public.

I agree with this too. Most of the compelling reasons to believe that the Vale lords know about Sansa have been mentioned already. What they will do next seems less clear. Alerting the IT however, has to be off the table. Furthermore, the Council has agreed to let the Lords Declarant make "whatever dispositions they might ... for the governance of the Vale during Robert Arryn's minority." Having been given carte blanche to manage their affairs, I see no reason why they would involve King's Landing at this point. Connecting with their historical allies in the North and the Riverlands is another matter altogether.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You are overstating her value as an heiress. Nothing short of an army could install her in Riverrun or Winterfell.

Well then it's too bad that the Vale armies aren't completely intact and unscathed ... oh WAIT.

That's not even counting forces in the North and/or Riverlands who might join the Vale forces to help install her and toss out the Lannister squatters.

If I'm overstating her value as an heiress, so too are the Tyrells and the Lannisters. They competed heavily enough with each other over who got to marry her.

[Carter209]

I think at this point the question should be, "Who knows?". At least the junior branch of the Royce family(Nestor and Myranda) know, especially after Sansa's reaction to the remark about Jon. It is highly likely that both Bronze Yohn and Lady Waynwood know; Bronze Yohn has more than likely suspected something since LF showed up in the Vale, and Lady Waynwood has probably been told by LF. Her knowing that Alayne is Sansa is the only logical reason for her to even consider a betrothal between Harry and "Alayne".

I think, however, if we're going to look at the Vale we also have to look at the North, at least, if not also the Riverlands. Sansa's value as a hostage, to LF, and as a marriage prospect for Harry will drop the moment Rickon is brought back to Winterfell. Rickon cannot be feigned as that's the reason why Manderly specifically said to bring back Shaggydog, as well. Sansa will not be the Lady of Winterfell by default, however she would still be his heir(I'm going to keep the possibilities of Robb's will out of this, for now). It's reasonable to assume that Sansa would possibly reveal who she is to someone in power in the Vale. It could be Harry himself, Bronze Yohn, Nestor Royce etc., but we'll find out quick how much she's come to understand about the Game simply by who she tells. If it's a Stark loyalist, and keep in mind we have, what, 1 confirmed in the Vale in Bronze Yohn, she'll be protected. If it's someone loyal to the Iron Throne, then we may see UnGregor sent to the Vale after her by Cersei.

If she does end up marrying Harry when the dust settles, I think it's likely that she'll use the power of the Vale to protect Rickon and the North. Even if Edmure is Lord of Riverrun, Sansa still has the best claim to Harrenhal through Cat. She could also use the Riverlands and carve out a true independent northern Westeros with the Knights of the Vale making up a good majority of the fighters.

[Colonel Green]

Her knowing that Alayne is Sansa is the only logical reason for her to even consider a betrothal between Harry and "Alayne".

We already got an explanation for why she's allowing it -- she has no choice, because Littlefinger has her cornered financially.

I think it's rather unlikely that Baelish would entrust such a key secret to somebody who isn't securely in his court, before he needed to.