(Book and Show Spoilers) Does anyone think the show portrays some characters more positively then the books?

[~DarkHorse~]

It irks me when (non-book reader) viewers believe Dany will avenge the Starks. For this reason I really hope they will add the Usurpers dog comment somewhere into a Dany scene. It will be interesting to see how fans react to 'Khaleesi' unfairly judging the lovable Ned Stark. However, I'm beginning to doubt this particular view of Dany's will be scripted into the show for the same reason they didn't use the 'Jamie Lannister sends his regards' line- they don't want her to look bad.

[Colonel Green]

It irks me when (non-book reader) viewers believe Dany will avenge the Starks. For this reason I really hope they will add the Usurpers dog comment somewhere into a Dany scene. It will be interesting to see how fans react to 'Khaleesi' unfairly judging the lovable Ned Stark. However, I'm beginning to doubt this particular view of Dany's will be scripted into the show for the same reason they didn't use the 'Jamie Lannister sends his regards' line- they don't want her to look bad.

Those are kind of different situations. Dany talking about hating the Starks is an actual part of the books that the show wants to play down; the "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" bit was most likely cut because they didn't want the audience to think Jaime was actually involved in planning the wedding with Bolton. Which he wasn't.

[Le Cygne]

Those are kind of different situations. Dany talking about hating the Starks is an actual part of the books that the show wants to play down; the "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" bit was most likely cut because they didn't want the audience to think Jaime was actually involved in planning the wedding with Bolton. Which he wasn't.

The Jaime Lannister sends his regards change was good, that would have been really confusing.

[Wolf Puppy]

I have to agree with you on all but the Hound. In the show and books some sort of relationship was formed between the Hound and Arya Stark. I would even go so far as to say that he was made nicer in the films then in the books. Yes, he does enjoy killing, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have other sides that make him nicer, though he will, and was never going to be cuddly. In my opinion it was a real shame Arya left him, and a mistake, they were perfect together as many people will agree.

[Annara Snow]

It seems to be that the writers and directors of the show sat down and decided that the source material for Game of Thrones was not feminist enough, so they altered the characters to fit their vision. But then again, maybe I'm just a misogynistic pig whose HATRED for women has colored my own interpretation of the books. Thoughts?

(That last part was sarcasm btw)

The books are about 100 times more feminist than the show. The books are written 50% from female POV and don't feel male gazey, while the show is full of scenes that exist only to show hot naked body of some 20 something actress (Ros exists only for that reason).

The female characters in the books are rich and complex and versatile - just like the male characters. The show simplifies and flattens them, turns them into stereotypes their book versions are subverting: Sansa (now just a silly dumb girl), Brienne (she's a "badass chick", so she kills people without remorse soon after we meet her, even though that's completely different from book Brienne's basic characterization), Arya (she has to remain the lovable plucky tomboy, rather than the traumatized child soldier who's losing her identity, so we can't have her intentionally kill a boy in S1 and murder the guard in S2, and her time in Harenthal seems like fun times, talking to granpa Tywin and all, rather than the harrowing experience it was in the book) , even Cersei (apparently, women can't even be really evil and cruel - they have the gentle souls of women, after all, as Joff would say, so out goes every awful crime Cersei is guilty of), and Catelyn is completely marginalized. This article sums it all up very well: http://feministfiction.com/2013/05/23/game-of-thrones-not-the-women-they-were-before/

The showrunners probably think they're creating wonderful "Strong Female Characters" with the likes of Talisa, but that type of character is summed up best here: http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/

"I think the major problem here is that women were clamoring for “strong female characters,” and male writers misunderstood. They thought the feminists meant [strong Female] Characters. The feminists meant [strong Characters], Female.

So the feminists shouldn’t have said “we want more strong female characters.” They should have said “we want more WEAK female characters.” Not “weak” meaning “Damsel in Distress.” “Weak” meaning “flawed.”"

A character like Talisa is a this kind of annoying character who exists to be 100% perfect - because, apparently, D&D took it literally that only this kind of speshual and perfect woman is worthy "giving up a kingdom for" - and completely unrealistic. She's made it all alone as a foreigner in Westeros (without the help of dark magic) working as a medic/physician in the field, and she comes up to a king and gives him a piece of her mind. Um... right. Because that's how patriarchal, cruel medieval world works? No wonder some people are blaming Sansa for not fighting her way out of the King's Landing, when it's apparently so simple for women (and commoners and other oppressed groups) to be "badass" and sassy and successful! That's not how oppression works! It's especially ironic because GRRM has talked in the past against the type of medieval fiction that doesn't care about the context and shows plucky commoners mouthing off to princes, when in reality, they knew they would be killed, and possibly also raped and tortured, if they did anything like that.

Don't get me started on such lines from the show as "You sound like a bloody woman" (something book!Brienne would never say) or "Most girls are stupid" (Arya may be dismissive of girly things, but she never said something like that in the books). In the books, internalized misogyny was reserved for unlikeable characters like Cersei and Lysa; the show is apparently telling us that the only great badass women are those who reject their gender and despise women in general.

Yes, that's so true.

And this, too, about why the female characters are shown less positively on the show. The show makes their stories about men. Cersei's story became Joffrey's story on the show (don't look at me, she says tearfully, wringing her hands, Joffrey did everything). Catelyn's story became Robb's (yes, she's a good mother, but in the books she's a smart capable player Robb relies upon). Sansa's story became Tyrion's and no doubt Littlefinger's next season (yes, she's naive, but in the books, she is smart enough to deliberately play along to survive, and she has her own inner life, where she's exploring what she wants and reflecting on what she's learned, and she is growing stronger). And now I fear Brienne's story will be about Jaime (no brave journey of a true knight through the dark night of Westeros for her, will she walk ten paces behind Jaime, or rescue Gendry's plot?

This.

[Annara Snow]

I actually believe the Hound is presented notably more pleasant in the show. In part because scenes like this one got cut from the show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGfx8sREz_Y

Tyrion was definitely presented better in the show. Ditto with Renly.

Really, most characters do appear better in the show, with Stannis being the notable exception.

The Hound is presented more sympathetically because they cut an awful scene that D&D wrote, which was a completely botched version of a scene from the book, which they seemed to have completely misunderstood? You're not making a good case here.

Thing is, I don't think they were trying to make him more or less likeable - they just don't know how to write him. Why not just have the dialogue from the book unchanged?

[Newstar]

Those are kind of different situations. Dany talking about hating the Starks is an actual part of the books that the show wants to play down; the "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" bit was most likely cut because they didn't want the audience to think Jaime was actually involved in planning the wedding with Bolton. Which he wasn't.

Hadn't thought of that. I guess the TV viewers would be wondering if Jaime had plotted the RW offscreen with Roose. Seems like a sensible enough change.

[Annara Snow]

As a Renly/Loras gal I have to say:

Show!Renly is waaaay nicer and gayer (21st century Kinsey 6++ gay actually) than in the books. One instant where that school of thrones parody made me lol is that they got "Renly the ridic closet gay jock" right.

Show!Loras I have heard called by Unsullied after season 3 is an "adorable clueless sweet gay puppy" (yeah, sure, and a mentally unstable killer, but we're not talking about this on the show, just about broaches).

Gods, yes. I've talked about the stereotyping of female characters in my post above, because the OP brought up show's supposed "feminism", but Loras and Renly were even more stereotyped.

I liked the fact that they showed their relationship on-screen - it's one of those things that's hinted in the books and that an adaptation can have a chance to show, without the boundaries of POV. But why did they change their characterizations to make them closer to stereotypes of what gay men are like? Loras shaving Renly's chest - really? Renly in the books is similar to young Robert, and although he's never been in a war and isn't a great fighter, he has no problem with tournaments and fighting. He's very much a charismatic, arrogant jock, who just happens to be gay. (I was also thinking that it was hilarious that School of Thrones was more faithful to his book characterization than the show was.) Loras is a pretty boy, yes, but he's also cocky and passionate and kills people out of rage and grief over his lover's death. The show had to make him a sweet little kitten, and give the killings to Brienne, because she's big and masculine-looking and a "badass chick".

And don't get me started on annoying 'gay' jokes, and the way they made Sansa look like an idiot, making her the only person who doesn't get that Loras likes boys, when in the books, Loras' sexual orientation wasn't common knowledge, but while Sansa, who barely knew him, didn't know about his sexuality, she immediately realized on her own that he wasn't interested in her.

[Petyr Patter]

The Hound is presented more sympathetically because they cut an awful scene that D&D wrote, which was a completely botched version of a scene from the book, which they seemed to have completely misunderstood? You're not making a good case here.

Thing is, I don't think they were trying to make him more or less likeable - they just don't know how to write him. Why not just have the dialogue from the book unchanged?

Oh, I disagree strongly. That scene did a much better job showing the Hound-Sansa dynamic from the book than any other scene with the two of them together, albeit with some stiff acting from Ms. Turner. The Hound is a violent, troubled individual who directs some of that right at Sansa.

Compare that to their final scene together, when Sansa retreats to her bedroom, only to discover the Hound on her bed, who demands a "song" from her, and then holds a knife to her throat. The sexual and violent undertones are pretty easy to pick up on. Did he plan on raping Sansa like he claims in the next book? I kind of get that feeling. That fact he didn't is, well, why he isn't a rapist, but this isn't your standard "beauty and the beast" romance. Sandor isn't misunderstood because he's ugly. He really is a scarred individual whose hatred of his brother is what keeps him going and has no use for

That is not to completely dismiss Sandor as a villain character. There is the sense that a better family growing up and employers who aren't immoral might have made him an actual good character. He also does seem to care for Arya and Sansa, though there isn't much ability in him left to care about other people.

[Annara Snow]

Oh, I disagree strongly. That scene did a much better job showing the Hound-Sansa dynamic from the book than any other scene with the two of them together, albeit with some stiff acting from Ms. Turner. The Hound is a violent, troubled individual who directs some of that right at Sansa.

The scene captures nothing of the actual Sansa/Hound dynamic from the books, and only proves that D&D don't understand his character, her character or their relationship. I'm guessing that their reasoning is somewhat similar to yours - "The Hound is violent and troubled, so let him act violent and scare Sansa" - kind of like they thought "Let's have Jaime kill his cousin for no good reason, just to remind people he's bad", without giving any thought to the actual characterization of the character and his mindset/motivations. It's shallow writing. The deleted scene is a completely botched version of the Serpentine steps scene - D&D seem to have completely missed what that scene and the S/S dynamic is about. The deleted scene consists of the Hound randomly threatening and harassing Sansa, Sansa being scared and crying out (because that's how D&D see her character, as a silly scared weak little girl) and - this is the icing on the cake - Tyrion appear at the end like a white knight to "save" Sansa. :bang:

Compare that to the scene on the Serpentine steps from the book:

She flew along the river walk, past the small kitchen, and through the pig yard, her hurried footsteps lost beneath the squealing of the hogs in their

pens. Home, she thought, home, he is going to take me home, he’ll keep me safe, my Florian. The songs about Florian and Jonquil were her very

favorites. Florian was homely too, though not so old.

She was racing headlong down the serpentine steps when a man lurched out of a hidden doorway. Sansa caromed into him and lost her

balance. Iron fingers caught her by the wrist before she could fall, and a deep voice rasped at her. “It’s a long roll down the serpentine, little bird.

Want to kill us both?” His laughter was rough as a saw on stone. “Maybe you do.”

The Hound. “No, my lord, pardons, I’d never.” Sansa averted her eyes but it was too late, he’d seen her face. “Please, you’re hurting me.” She

tried to wriggle free.

“And what’s Joff’s little bird doing flying down the serpentine in the black of night?” When she did not answer, he shook her. “Where were you?”

“The g-g-godswood, my lord,” she said, not daring to lie. “Praying . . . praying for my father, and . . . for the king, praying that he’d not be hurt.”

“Think I’m so drunk that I’d believe that?” He let go his grip on her arm, swaying slightly as he stood, stripes of light and darkness falling across

his terrible burnt face. “You look almost a woman . . . face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost . . . ah, you’re still a stupid little bird, aren’t you? Singing all the songs they taught you . . . sing me a song, why don’t you? Go on. Sing to me. Some song about knights and fair maids. You like

knights, don’t you?”

He was scaring her. “T-true knights, my lord.”

“True knights,” he mocked. “And I’m no lord, no more than I’m a knight. Do I need to beat that into you?” Clegane reeled and almost fell. “Gods,”

he swore, “too much wine. Do you like wine, little bird? True wine? A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman.” He laughed, shook his head. “Drunk as a dog, damn me. You come now. Back to your cage, little bird. I’ll take you there. Keep you safe for the king.” The Hound gave her a push, oddly gentle, and followed her down the steps. By the time they reached the bottom, he had lapsed back into a brooding silence, as if he had forgotten she was there.

When they reached Maegor’s Holdfast, she was alarmed to see that it was Ser Boros Blount who now held the bridge. His high white helm turned

stiffly at the sound of their footsteps. Sansa flinched away from his gaze. Ser Boros was the worst of the Kingsguard, an ugly man with a foul

temper, all scowls and jowls.

“That one is nothing to fear, girl.” The Hound laid a heavy hand on her shoulder. “Paint stripes on a toad, he does not become a tiger.”

Ser Boros lifted his visor. “Ser, where—”

“Fuck your ser, Boros. You’re the knight, not me. I’m the king’s dog, remember?”

“The king was looking for his dog earlier.”

“The dog was drinking. It was your night to shield him, ser. You and my other brothers.”

Ser Boros turned to Sansa. “How is it you are not in your chambers at this hour, lady?”

“I went to the godswood to pray for the safety of the king.” The lie sounded better this time, almost true.

“You expect her to sleep with all the noise?” Clegane said. “What was the trouble?”

“Fools at the gate,” Ser Boros admitted. “Some loose tongues spread tales of the preparations for Tyrek’s wedding feast, and these wretches

got it in their heads they should be feasted too. His Grace led a sortie and sent them scurrying.”

“A brave boy,” Clegane said, mouth twitching.

Let us see how brave he is when he faces my brother, Sansa thought. The Hound escorted her across the drawbridge. As they were winding

their way up the steps, she said, “Why do you let people call you a dog? You won’t let anyone call you a knight.”

“I like dogs better than knights. My father’s father was kennelmaster at the Rock. One autumn year, Lord Tytos came between a lioness and her

prey. The lioness didn’t give a shit that she was Lannister’s own sigil. Bitch tore into my lord’s horse and would have done for my lord too, but my

grandfather came up with the hounds. Three of his dogs died running her off. My grandfather lost a leg, so Lannister paid him for it with lands and a

towerhouse, and took his son to squire. The three dogs on our banner are the three that died, in the yellow of autumn grass. A hound will die for you,

but never lie to you. And he’ll look you straight in the face.” He cupped her under the jaw, raising her chin, his fingers pinching her painfully. “And

that’s more than little birds can do, isn’t it? I never got my song.”

“I . . . I know a song about Florian and Jonquil.”

“Florian and Jonquil? A fool and his cunt. Spare me. But one day I’ll have a song from you, whether you will it or no.”

“I will sing it for you gladly.”

Sandor Clegane snorted. “Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all

liars here . . . and every one better than you.”

What is going on in this scene is: Sansa has come from her meeting with Dontos in the woods, planning to escape. Sandor clasps he wrists to save her from falling down, since she lost her balance. She's only scared because he has caught her coming back from the woods and she's scared of her plans being discovered. Sansa is generally not scared of Sandor (see the later scene on the roof, where she asks him why he's saying hateful things, tells him he's awful and asks him if he's afraid of going to hell - a complete contrast to how guarded and fake-submissive she is with everyone else - and doesn't get perturbed at all when he's bragging with his sword.) He's a bit insulted that she is trying to lie to him, and makes it clear that he understands exactly what is going on. Instead of telling on her, he covers for her in front of. Boros Blount. Sandor is the one protecting her in that scene, not Tyrion. And when he takes her back, his touch is again "gentle", which is something repeated numerous times in Sansa's POV - she's always noticing that his touch is "surprisingly gentle".

He also tries to tell her once again that her faith in 'knights' is naive and displaced - which suggests that he has a good guess what she's trying to do (she is trying to believe that Dontos is her Florian who will save her) and warns her not to trust the people at court, because they're all liars, and better liars than she is (the line that the show gave Littlefinger!). He tries to make it clear that he is not lying to her, and that she doesn't have to lie to him - he sees through her already, but he's on her side. Naturally, because Sandor is Sandor, his manner of speaking is rough and he insults her again, calling her a stupid little bird who believes in childish things they have taught her.

He's also quite drunk - probably coming back from having his time off (spent drinking and gambling and whoring, the things Varys said he did in his spare time) - so he's less guarded and says things he wouldn't say while sober: he shows that he's starting to notice her new womanly body, but at the same time it's like he's checking himself, telling himself "no... she may look like a woman, but she's still a little girl. And she's meant to be married to the king. Don't go there."

When he asks her to sing him a song, it's about the meaning of song as idealism, romanticism, dreams - which he has lost a long time ago, but seeing her faith in heroes and knights and romance, it makes him angry and frustrated because she's so naive and likely to get hurt, but it also makes him secretly wish for those things again, even though he outwardly mocks them.

Sansa is not just some scared girl and there is no power disbalance between them that they showed in the deleted scene - she has normal conversations with him (unlike with most people in KL, including Tyrion), asking him questions about himself. She is interested in him as a person (ever since their scene after the tournemant, where he told her hi story, where she quickly went from her initial fear of him, to a concern for him and started comforting him). He also shares an important bit of his family's backstory, basically telling her what kind of person he is and what he values."I like dogs better than knights" is a great line.

But to get that across, the show would have to acknowledge the theme of "true knights", which is a running theme in the books especially important for the characters of Sansa, Sandor, Brienne and Jaime. And the show has completely failed in conveying that. How difficult was it to make it clear that Sandor Clegane is not a knight (I want to facepalm when I see show only reviewers call him a knight), and that he does not want to be a knight because he despises their hypocrisy? How difficult was it to have him and Sansa have one of their conversations about knights, with his cynicism and nihilism pitted against her idealism? They came close to that in the scene where she tried to thank him for saving her from the mob - one of the few decent SanSan scenes in the show in episodes written by D&D - but surely it wouldn't hurt adding a few more lines to explain what his attitudes to knights is.

Compare that to their final scene together, when Sansa retreats to her bedroom, only to discover the Hound o her bed, who demands a "song" from her, and then holds a knife to her throat. The sexual and violent undertones are pretty easy to pick up on. Did he plan on raping Sansa like he claims in the next book? I kind of get that feeling. That fact he didn't is, well, why he isn't a rapist, but this isn't your standard "beauty and the beast" romance. Sandor isn't misunderstood because he's ugly. He really is a scarred individual whose hatred of his brother is what keeps him going and has no use for

That is not to completely dismiss Sandor as a villain character. There is the sense that a better family growing up and employers who aren't immoral might have made him an actual good character. He also does seem to care for Arya and Sansa, though there isn't much ability in him left to care about other people.

This is the second time in two days that I have to argue this thing. No, Sandor never said that he planned on raping her. What he said was that he meant to "take her". You and some others choose to interpret "take" as "rape"; I think it's more likely that he meant taking her with him from King's Landing, which is exactly what he proposed to do when he came to her room. He never said "I wanted/meant to rape her" or even "I wanted/meant to fuck her". And he never said the misquoted "I should have fucked her bloody" - he said "I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her to that dwarf" now, the entire sentence changes the meaning completely. doesn't it? He's saying that he regrets leaving her to the Lannisters to do what they wanted with her, he's saying "it would've even been better if I [insert most awful thing he could have done and that people may expect a "brute" like him to do: rape, murder] rather than what I did - leaving her to to Tyrion to marry her and rape her every night". He uses coarse, violent, over-dramatic language, because it's his way of talking, and he's badly wounded and dying and asking Arya to finish him off. But the actual meaning is, to me, unmistakable, and it's not "I wanted to rape her".

And let's take a look at the Blackwater scene. The sexual component was there - Sansa felt it; was he attracted to her? Yes. Did it cross his mind at some point in those few minutes that he'd like to have sex with her? Probably. But he did not try to rape her, and he certainly did not come to her room to rape her. He was unstable, traumatized, very drunk, had a dash on his face and blood over his burns, he had been puking, he has nowhere to go and no one to turn to, except Sansa, and he goes to her room and waits for her. Then he cries and tells her he's lost everything - she is the only person he can be vulnerable around and expect comfort from.

He wants to take her from KL and promises to be her protector - even though he hasn't really thought it through ("somewhere north"). I don't think he had any clear plans or had thought it through. He's again acting in an unguarded way, but a lot more unstable than before. When he yanked her close (both of them have been in the habit of touching each other's wrist or shoulder before, it's not new), she thought he was going to kiss her (we don't know if he did or not, without his POV) and closed her eyes - and he had a very violent reaction, because he took it as a rejection, and I don't just mean of him as a potential lover (I don't even know if he's consciously allowed himself to consider that possibility) but of him as a person she could accept, like or trust. The idea that people are disgusted and scared of him and think of him as a monster because of his burnt face is a major berserk button for Sandor.

He threatened her with a knife and put it to her throat (and yes, there is a metaphorical sexual component there - he didn't need a phallic object to threaten her life, he could easily kill her with his hands) and made her sing him a song. Metaphorical rape, perhaps; but certainly not a literal one. He wasn't asking for sex or a kiss - he was asking for a song; for love and acceptance. When she sang the Mother's prayer, asking for gentleness and compassion and harmony, he was deeply moved and started crying - and he must have realized how awful what he was doing was, that he was this big scary man threatenintg a little girl's life, behaving like a bully that his brother was. Especially when she reacted by cupping his cheek, again showing him compassion, as she did when he first told her his story.

It's clear from his speech to Arya that he regrets and feels ashamed that he "took a song" from her, which is not what he wanted - he wanted her to give him love and acceptance on her own - just like he regrets not having protected her from the Lannisters. So, it doesn't make sense that he would say in the same breath that he regrets not raping her.

And if you are taking it literally and think that he actually meant to rape her, why stop there - by the same logic, do you think that he also meant to murder her by ripping her heart out?

Or is it another metaphor - I don't think it's a coincidence that he talks about taking her "heart", which he doesn't believe she would have given him on her own, any more than she would wanted to sing to him or have sex with him - rather than mentioning some other, more likely method of murder, like choking her, bashing her head, or cutting her throat (his knife was at her throat)?

[Le Cygne]

Agreed, that line is about Tyrion. He thought Tyrion was raping her every night ("fucking her bloody").

Did he plan on raping Sansa like he claims in the next book?

Petyr Patter, you said you want Sansa to be with Tyrion, but that's ignoring Sansa. In the books, Sansa sees Sandor as her knight.

Wanted to add this, the official app:

"Riding with King Robert to Winterfell, Sandor first meets Sansa Stark and becomes infatuated with her...

"During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging on the river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him -- as well as her song -- makes him leave without her...

"Arya considers killing him, and the Hound attempts to force her into it by telling her how he killed Mycah and how he made Sansa sing for him."

[Atropis the Elf]

It irks me when (non-book reader) viewers believe Dany will avenge the Starks. For this reason I really hope they will add the Usurpers dog comment somewhere into a Dany scene. It will be interesting to see how fans react to 'Khaleesi' unfairly judging the lovable Ned Stark. However, I'm beginning to doubt this particular view of Dany's will be scripted into the show for the same reason they didn't use the 'Jamie Lannister sends his regards' line- they don't want her to look bad.

I'm sorry, but your comment is biased in my opinion.

1. Ned's beheading was a shock to the viewers, hands down. Up until season 3 and before the bath scene with Jaime/Brienne, nobody had a reason to dislike Ned. But what happens after this scene? There are viewers that question the impeccable Ned.

2. The "Jamie Lannister sends his regards" line was justifiably changed, as explained above by previous posters.

3. I wish I could asnwer for the comment about Dany, but I would be more biased than you :)