Will history see Tywin Lannister as a failure?

[Illusion]

History might remember him as the mighty Tywin, killed by a dwarf while using the privvy...

[Light a wight tonight]

I'm not blown away by Robb's overall war strategy, but he and the Blackfish make it clear that the plan was to lure them onto favorable ground which they claimed to have found and trap him between Robb's and Roose's armies. At the time Robb left his banners in the Riverlands had been dispersed and sent back to their holdfasts....meaning there was no Army that Edmure had available to stop Tywin. Beyond using the Frey levies with him in the west and with Roose in the east, I'm not sure Robb planned to even recall the rest of the riverlords. Edmure did that on his own.

And it's all well and good that Martin related that story to us after the fact, but it's not written in the novel anywhere that I can recall.

In light of Roose's already having sold out to Tywin this might not have worked out so well.

[Lord Davos Seaworth]

I don't know if this is the way GRRM intended it, but this is the way I see it:

Essentially Tywin was a great leader/tactician/politician etc, but a terrible father. He treated his children as pawns in his master scheme, causing them to develop very clear emotional and psychological abnormalities.

Little did he realize it was these children that would one day have to carry on his legacy.

[Yukle]

I don't know if this is the way GRRM intended it, but this is the way I see it:

Essentially Tywin was a great leader/tactician/politician etc, but a terrible father. He treated his children as pawns in his master scheme, causing them to develop very clear emotional and psychological abnormalities.

Little did he realize it was these children that would one day have to carry on his legacy.

Agreed. And the line from Tywin's sister that Tyrion is Tywin's son, not Jaime, is the most telling line of the whole Lannister saga.

[Light a wight tonight]

You can debate Tywin's faults and strengths, his victories and defeats, all day, but you can't predict how the people will remember him. Baelor the Blessed was revered but he was a dreadful king.

[The Fallen]

First of all I take it, you accidently quoted me for things I did not write.

Yes, I made a mistake. I went back and corrected it. Sorry about that.

What do you call Cersei's marriage to Robert then? If appeasing Dorne was the fist priority why not try and arrange match with Arianne?

They couldn't have Robert betrothed to a four-year old. And who says that the only way to appease someone is through a marriage? I don't think the Martells were looking for a marriage as justice for what happened to Elia.

The version of events where Tywin staying out of the war was not vital in the Rebellion winning.

You keep mentioning this, but I honestly don't recall anyone in the books making that claim. Please enlighten me.

Whatever side Tywin took shortly prior to the Battle of the Trident was going to win.

This is delving into "what if" territory, but Tywin didn't choose a side before the Trident so I don't see how it's relevant to our discussion.

The second version is that the sacking of Kings Landing played only a small part. How many men do you think the Rebellion would have lost if they had to take Kings Landing? There is even a chance that Storm's End would fall by then. The loyalist would then have two powerful hostages.

This is what's wrong with this argument you're making. You're assuming that Tywin was on the fence when he marched to King's Landing. He clearly wasn't. So there's no "if Tywin would've joined the loyalists" because Tywin had plenty of opportunities to do it, but didn't.

So the proper scenarios, if you want to go there, are Tywin sacking King's Landing as he did or Tywin staying home. In the case of the latter, then the rebels would have had to take the city themselves. Would it have cost them more lives? Of course. But the rebels knew that and it was a cost they were willing to bear. That's why I don't feel that the rebels should be grateful to Tywin for what he did.

If I'm resigned to the fact that I have to push my car all the way and you help me the last ten feet, yes it was helpful, but how can you take any credit as having been crucial in my feat? Especially if you watched me the whole time and didn't bother helping (even after I ask you for help) because you didn't think I could do it, and then help out the last ten feet only so you can partake in the spoils.

Like and love do not always mean the same thing. Robert loved his brothers, but he did not like necessarily like them and especially Stannis.

Yes of course the quotes suggest that Tyrion is the only hope for the Lannisters. He is by far the cleverest out of the remaining ones and he possibly could save them. Kevan was another option, but Tyrion is the smartest. With him in charge they would be hope. As much as I like Jaime he is just not as intelligent as his brother or father or even uncle.

I actually agree with you that Tyrion is the best choice to lead House Lannister because of his smarts, but I don't think Genna was implying that.

Really? This quote comes on the morning of Tywin's death and I am romanticising him?

Cersei was romanticizing him in the books, but you keep using it as a statement that encompasses Tywin completely. It comes across as Pycelle-like.

Being separated probably did effect his judgment though he tries to pretend he is happy about it, but he still though these things. These are not the kind of thoughts you have about an 8 year old girl you have just met.

I don't think Ned mentioned the Lannisters a lot, but when he did his anger at them seems to have influenced his children.

It might have, but that's not what we see. Sansa instantly likes Myrcella. Jon gets on well with Tyrion. Robb seems to have no issues with Myrcella. The only issues come with Joffrey and his sense of entitlement and, of course, Jaime's reputation precedes him.

I keep repeating that the version of events people like to use is based on Ned's view.

I know you keep repeating it, but I'm not sure what you mean by that. My argument is not based on what Ned thinks or feels. And I also don't recall Ned having a position on whether Tywin's sack of King's Landing was a great help or whether it didn't help at all. Ned wasn't happy with Tywin's or Jaime's actions, but that's a different story and not relevant to this discussion.

Question who is likely to win if Tywin comes with 30-50,000 troops to help the battle of the Trident?

What happens if Tywin comes with 12,000 troops to help defend Kings Landing?

How many soldiers would die if Ned had to take Kings Landing by force?

Would Stannis have still been saved in time?

Tywin played a role in defeating the Targaryens, not as glorious as Ned, Jon or Tywin but still a role. It's a role people I think you underestimate.

As I stated earlier in this post, you're scenario is not relevant. If Tywin was going to join with the loyalists it would've happened before the Trident was settled. Tywin went to King's Landing specifically to sack it through treachery. Pycelle was assisting him and Varys was advising Aerys against it.

He did play a role, I just don't view it as a great achievement.

[The Fallen]

Marvelous.

I guess I would consider it marvelous if it had been an original thought from you. Otherwise, it really is just me agreeing with an obvious statement.

Well speak to the argument next time as opposed to strawmanning and using equivocation. There is a difference between taking plunder and burning. Plunder destroys your mobility, which they claimed they were depending on.

I neither strawman nor equivocate. Let's just leave it at that, as I don't want to upset you anymore than you already seem to be.

[The Prince of Ice]

Obviously if you think Tywin Lannister was a failure in the history of Westeros than were not reading the same books. Simple as that.

[FuriousGeorge]

Obviously if you think Tywin Lannister was a failure in the history of Westeros than were not reading the same books. Simple as that.

Nuff said

[The Prince of Ice]

Nuff said

Thank you for being reasonable man

[The Frosted King]

Obviously if you think Tywin Lannister was a failure in the history of Westeros than were not reading the same books. Simple as that.

It's not that simple. Tywin died, but his game continues.

How it ends decides how he's remembered.

Same thing for Ned Stark.

[The Prince of Ice]

It's not that simple. Tywin died, but his game continues.

How it ends decides how he's remembered.

Same thing for Ned Stark.

Your right their games still continue but that doesnt erase what they did before they died. Thats why when anyone tries to call Tywin or Eddard failures i just laugh. Oh yeah arent you my father?

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Tywins legacy being brutal, vindictive, and ultimately damaging to the realm doesn't make him a failure so much as it makes him a bad person who'll be remembered outside the Westerlands with heavy negative connotations. The North, Dorne, and the Riverlands for example are never going to view Tywin as a great, successful man.

[TheGreatstag]

Obviously if you think Tywin Lannister was a failure in the history of Westeros than were not reading the same books. Simple as that.

Perhaps not. In the books I read nothing is set out in black and white.

[TheGreatstag]

Your right their games still continue but that doesnt erase what they did before they died. Thats why when anyone tries to call Tywin or Eddard failures i just laugh. Oh yeah arent you my father?

If Tywin is the last Lord Lannister, will history say all his actions were worth it? His life aim was to build the Lannister legacy, and yet the Lannister legacy was stronger a yaer before his birth than it is a year after his death

[The Prince of Ice]

If Tywin is the last Lord Lannister, will history say all his actions were worth it? His life aim was to build the Lannister legacy, and yet the Lannister legacy was stronger a yaer before his birth than it is a year after his death

The Lannister Legacy was pretty bad before his birth, they were a joke because of Tytos. Tywin and his brood made the house hated and fear but IMO thats a bit better than being treated as a joke. Tywin wont be the last Lord Lannister trust me on that. The Lannister Legacy may be tarnished after his death but that doesnt take away the great things he did while he was alive.

Tywin took his family from a laughing stock to the most powerful feared family in the realm and IMO only his dealing with his family can be seen as a failure. Horrible father no doubt about that however most of the stains on the Lannister Legacy can be put on Cersei and Jaime, also the incestous bastards. Overall failure for Tywin i think not but thats my opinion.

[mrunderhill]

They couldn't have Robert betrothed to a four-year old. And who says that the only way to appease someone is through a marriage? I don't think the Martells were looking for a marriage as justice for what happened to Elia.

I am guessing Arianne was around 8 at the time and it was possible. They didn't get justice for Elia did they? They didn't even get Lorch or the Mountain they got absolutely nothing. Hardly seems like appeasing Dorne was one of Jon's biggest concerns.

You keep mentioning this, but I honestly don't recall anyone in the books making that claim. Please enlighten me.

Ned implies this quite a few times.

This is delving into "what if" territory, but Tywin didn't choose a side before the Trident so I don't see how it's relevant to our discussion.

This is not "what if" territory, but pointing out how the Rebellion could have gone otherwise and thousands more men could have died had Tywin chose otherwise.

This is what's wrong with this argument you're making. You're assuming that Tywin was on the fence when he marched to King's Landing. He clearly wasn't. So there's no "if Tywin would've joined the loyalists" because Tywin had plenty of opportunities to do it, but didn't.

So the proper scenarios, if you want to go there, are Tywin sacking King's Landing as he did or Tywin staying home. In the case of the latter, then the rebels would have had to take the city themselves. Would it have cost them more lives? Of course. But the rebels knew that and it was a cost they were willing to bear. That's why I don't feel that the rebels should be grateful to Tywin for what he did.

If I'm resigned to the fact that I have to push my car all the way and you help me the last ten feet, yes it was helpful, but how can you take any credit as having been crucial in my feat? Especially if you watched me the whole time and didn't bother helping (even after I ask you for help) because you didn't think I could do it, and then help out the last ten feet only so you can partake in the spoils.

Does pushing a car up the hill compare with saying thousands of lives and possibly Robert's brothers? Jon is grateful despite, because Tywin played a part. Ned is not, because he does not think that Tywin was honourable.

I actually agree with you that Tyrion is the best choice to lead House Lannister because of his smarts, but I don't think Genna was implying that.

I think she was and that is why she is afraid that he is gone.

Cersei was romanticizing him in the books, but you keep using it as a statement that encompasses Tywin completely. It comes across as Pycelle-like.

Cersei was not talking about Tywin in the books. She was literally talking about the stars. The bright star of the West had literally disappeared for winter. It's Martin, who is drawing the parallel between this bright star and Tywin.

It might have, but that's not what we see. Sansa instantly likes Myrcella. Jon gets on well with Tyrion. Robb seems to have no issues with Myrcella. The only issues come with Joffrey and his sense of entitlement and, of course, Jaime's reputation precedes him.

Sansa is different from the other Starks. Jon had issues with all the Lannisters until Tyrion reached out to him as a fellow "bastard". Arya hates Joffrey for no real reason. Later on they are given reason to, but they disliked the Lannisters from the off.

I know you keep repeating it, but I'm not sure what you mean by that. My argument is not based on what Ned thinks or feels. And I also don't recall Ned having a position on whether Tywin's sack of King's Landing was a great help or whether it didn't help at all. Ned wasn't happy with Tywin's or Jaime's actions, but that's a different story and not relevant to this discussion.

Then why do people act like taking Kings Landing would be easy? How many thousands of lives would be lost? How many more friends would Robert and Ned have lost?

As I stated earlier in this post, you're scenario is not relevant. If Tywin was going to join with the loyalists it would've happened before the Trident was settled. Tywin went to King's Landing specifically to sack it through treachery. Pycelle was assisting him and Varys was advising Aerys against it.

He did play a role, I just don't view it as a great achievement.

Maybe not his greatest achievement, but still a great one. The old Trojan Horse is always a good tactic to use and saved countless rebel lives.

[Stag Country]

What second mention? It is 100% clear the Blackfish meant the Stark horse sitting athwart the Gold Road. There really is no room for ambiguity on this. it is absurd to accuse me of arguing for the sake of arguing when you come out with this.

And yet you've gone out of your way in this discussion to establish that that was NOT Robb's plan and have gone so far to insinuate that he made it up just to guilt trip Edmure into a marriage he didn't want.

It blows my mind that you will sit here and argue till you're blue in the face that Robb had no plan in the west and that he was clearly not trying to lure Tywin.......and then you readily accept this as fact when trying to debate someone else.

And Robb played into his. Robb couldn't know about the siege of SE, which was why Tywin budged (and, of course, it wasn't Robb's plan anyway ...)

How is Robb playing into Tywin's hand in any way, shape, or form? He wants Tywin to come west and Tywin is coming west. Tywin's goal was to draw Robb east to Harrenhal and beat him from a position of strength......Robb's goal was to draw Tywin west and trap him. Who is obliging who in this scenario? Storm's End being under siege is completely irrelevent.

[Stag Country]

In light of Roose's already having sold out to Tywin this might not have worked out so well.

Seeing as how we don't know for certain when exactly Roose had sold out to Tywin, I'm not sure how you can make this statement.

Some believe it was as early as immediately after the Green Fork and Whispering Wood, when the Hornwoods both died and the whole Hornwood affair with Ramsey was part of his first move......I tend to disagree with this since Tywin looked like a sure loser at that point.

Some that it was when word of Robb's marriage to the Westerlings hit Harrenhal.

Many others, myself included, tend to believe it was after the Blackwater, which essentailly was the "Trident" moment of the Wot5k, which would be after the events we are discussing here.

[SerFelixCulpa]

Seems to be self-contradictory. How much of a chance did the Reynes and Tarbecks get to bend the knee? How many infants at the breast were openly defiant?

Its not contradictory at all. Tywin used the Reynes and the Tarbecks, early in his ascendancy, as an object lesson to anyone who would defy him. (And also likely as personal gratification, since he was younger and somewhat set on redressing slights to House Lannister that he felt had happened under his father.) In other words, he used them to establish a reputation. That made his own vassals, particularly, far far less likely to openly defy him.

But such a reputation can backfire: if someone *does* defy you, and they do so in the certainty that you will annihilate them in reprisal, they will fight to the bitter end rather than bend the knee. Desperate people fight desperately. Even if they have no chance of winning, they can have a good chance of doing you a lot of damage on the way out. Tywin knew to cultivate a reputation both as a fearsome adversary, and one who would (assuming you bent the knee and, I would presume, give certain assurances and hostages and such...) show some mercy in victory.

Killing the the children was well explained in the book by Tywin himself: he had no choice. He had to do something so utterly horrible and anti-Targaryen that it would leave no doubt in Robert's mind that Tywin had thrown his lot in firmly and irrevocably with him. It was a matter of preservation of the house, which was always Tywin's first concern.

EDIT: On further reflection, I might also add that the Reynes and Tarbecks were actually Tywin's vassals, people who were supposed to be loyal and obedient to his command by law. A further motivation for Tywin's treatment of them, therefore, was also to make sure his own underlings (as opposed to more "foreign" opponents) understood the price of disobedience to him. You have to treat people who are not by law required to do your bidding somewhat differently, particularly as they are much more likely to have friends available to assist them.