What would JRR Tolkien have thought of what GRRM thought of JRR Tolkien

[Myshkin]

Just saying, if this turns into an excuse to write Real-Person-Fanfic (Slash or otherwise) I will so shut it down. (looking at you, Sci.)

Wut?!! Well I've got nothing to add then.

[Zar Lannister]

I wonder what he would have thought of casting Sean Bean to play both Boromir and Ned Stark in Adaptations.

[The Pain Yak]

I seem to recall Tolkien actually liked the Conan stories. If a man can appreciate Conan, I think he could come to appreciate SoIaF, or at least not be instantly turned off because it has so much sex and violence and moral depravity.

[Darth Richard]

I seem to recall Tolkien actually liked the Conan stories. If a man can appreciate Conan, I think he could come to appreciate SoIaF, or at least not be instantly turned off because it has so much sex and violence and moral depravity.

Have you actually read any Conan?

[The Pain Yak]

Have you actually read any Conan?

Not for a long while, admittedly. If you have a criticism, don't be a dick about it, just say it.

[Darth Richard]

Well, I wouldn't call the orignial Conan stories full of sex or moral depravity(at least not like ASOIAF is). The view of Coana as a blood and gore fueled sex fest comes from the movies and some of those godawful non Howard novels.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Well, I wouldn't call the orignial Conan stories full of sex or moral depravity(at least not like ASOIAF is). The view of Coana as a blood and gore fueled sex fest comes from the movies and some of those godawful non Howard novels.

Conan's got plenty of sex; it's just implied, and the act itself is kept off-screen (plus there's the notorious attempted rape in the Frost Giant's Daughter). There's also (obviously) plenty of gore, though the moral depravity is largely there to demonstrate the divide between "admirable" barbarism, and "decadent" civilisation.

[Darth Richard]

Right, but it's not in ASOIAF. Which I also think has a much higher level of gore. I don't think Tolkien liking Coana would have any bearing on what he wouldd have thought of ASOIAF. They're complete differnt animals.

The Frost Giant's Daughter is a discussion for a differnt thread.

[polishgenius]

Conan's got plenty of sex; it's just implied, and the act itself is kept off-screen

Bit like Lord of the Rings, then? >_>

[The Marquis de Leech]

Bit like Lord of the Rings, then? >_>

LOTR doesn't have female pirate captains performing quasi-magical mating dances to seduce the protagonist, and then (presumably) fucking him in front of the crew.

[polishgenius]

Yeah, but you know why Tom Bombadil is such a jolly fellow, right?

[Darth Richard]

Are there even any women in LotR for people to HAVE sex with?

[Bronson]

He would have found alot to admire in George R Martins Game of Thrones books :cool4:

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

Are there even any women in LotR for people to HAVE sex with?

Of course there are women in Lord of the Rings, but most of the major characters are men, because that was the way things were when Tolkien was writing.

As for what Tolkien's reaction to ASOIAF would be, I'm sure that, apart from being horrified at all the gratuitous vulgarity, he'd be quick to point out that all the comparisons being made these days between his own work and Martin's are silly, as he was writing a mythological history, not a political drama. Still, he'd probably admire Martin's dedication to building his own world and telling an original story.

ETA: I just realized the OP's question wasn't really about what Tolkien would have thought of GRRM, but what he'd have thought of GRRM's opinion of him, and as I have no idea what GRRM's opinion of Tolkien is, I honestly couldn't say. I retract my answer :)

[polishgenius]

Of course there are women in Lord of the Rings, but most of the major characters are men, because that was the way things were when Tolkien was writing.

That's really nonsense, isn't it. Just for one, C.S. Lewis had loads of female characters in his fantasy series that he was writing at the same time.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

That's really nonsense, isn't it. Just for one, C.S. Lewis had loads of female characters in his fantasy series that he was writing at the same time.

No its not really nonsense. While I'm sure you can find authors who were writing more female characters than Tolkien at the time Tolkien was writing, the vast and overwhelming majority of authors of similar types of fiction wrote primarily about men and boys (though, as with Lewis, writers who's protagonists were primarily children often included more girls, because in that era it was more acceptable for girls to be adventurous than for grown women, who were supposed to settle down and keep a home). Tolkien was a product of his time.

ETA: I feel I should mention that in what Tolkien always considered to be his favorite work, the unfinished Silmarillion, female characters are quite prominent. Half of the Ainur, the semi-divine beings who shape Middle Earth identify as "female", and while many of the book's protagonists are male, there are a number of prominent women, including Luthien who is arguably the biggest hero in the entire book.

[Darth Richard]

I'm sick of this 'product of his/her times" bullshit. You know who else was a product of his time? Adolf Hitler, but I don't see him getting a free pass.

[buff daddy]

Hitler was a shitty author though.

[Lord Toblerone]

I'm sick of this 'product of his/her times" bullshit. You know who else was a product of his time? Adolf Hitler, but I don't see him getting a free pass.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Tolkien wasn't responsible for a genocidal regime, and found Nazi ideology abhorrent, as many people of Hitler's time did.

Tolkien has never been immune to criticism, either from his contemporaries or from modern-day critics. But it helps sometimes to put an author's writing in the context of their times.

[The hairy bear]

That's really nonsense, isn't it. Just for one, C.S. Lewis had loads of female characters in his fantasy series that he was writing at the same time.

C.S. Lewis was writing allegorical fables. This genre has both male and female protaginists because it tries to serve as a moral guide for the reader, regadless his or her gender. (hence the relatively egalitarian distribution of the children tales: Hansel and Gretel, Little Red Riding Hood and Jack of the Beanstalk, Cinderella and Hop-o'-my-thumb,...)

Tolkien was trying to write mythological corpus, and back then that was restricted to male heroes. Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Heracles, Perci...The point of view is always the male heroe or king. And still, we should give Tolkien credit for introducing Eowyn, who is a very notable character for this time and genre.