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[BOOK SPOILERS] Theory: Ramsay hunts a Stark in Season 4?


Lord Jakkor

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I think episode nine is a bit late for Stannis to arrive at the Wall. Granted, I'm making an assumption here, but it seems likely that Jon's story will end with him being elected as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. That being the case, I think we need to see the machinations behind that coming to fruition in at least two, maybe three episodes. That would put Stannis' arrival at the Wall in episode six or seven.

I think your predictions are pretty accurate but I don't necessarily agree that Jon's election to the NW is something that requires multiple episodes to depict. I agree that it will happen in the finale but I think that you'll see the entire process play out over a few scenes in that episode and that will be it. I highly doubt they're going to bother with stuff like having Cotter Pyke and Denys Mallister involved and it will probably just come down to a showdown between Slynt and Jon with Sam intervening. All that shouldn't take more than a few scenes to depict. It's not really much more than a chapter or two in the books.

I'm making the assumption that the Stannis arrival doesn't happen until E9 based on D&D's quote some time ago stating that they were working on a battle that dwarfed the scope of Blackwater that would take place late in Season 4. "Late" is relative so I suppose it doesn't have to be in E9 but given the importance they are looking to give the battle at the Wall, Stannis' arrival would end up being the climax of that particular arc and E9 is where they typically like to put the big climaxes. Although I suppose I agree that the structure for this season may be altered somewhat with all the great climaxes they have to work with.

If Stannis' arrival does take place in say E7 or E8, I could see them taking a break from the storyline to address other plots before coming back to Jon's election in the finale.

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If it comes down to a showdown between Jon and Slynt, Sam can't intervene unless there are other contenders for him to persuade to side with Jon. I think Cotter Pyke and Bowen Marsh can be the other people runner for commander, allowing their roles (especially Marsh') to be built up in S5. And I believe the guy playing Marsh in S1 (just as a cameo) has expressed an interest in returning.

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If it comes down to a showdown between Jon and Slynt, Sam can't intervene unless there are other contenders for him to persuade to side with Jon. I think Cotter Pyke and Bowen Marsh can be the other people runner for commander, allowing their roles (especially Marsh') to be built up in S5. And I believe the guy playing Marsh in S1 (just as a cameo) has expressed an interest in returning.

Possible although someone like Cotter Pyke could be little more than an extra as well. I'm very much looking forward to the casting announcements for this season as it will help lock a lot of this speculation into place.

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I just don't see the season, as a whole, being structured in such a way that Stannis' arrival at the Wall makes sense as the episode nine moment. Especially since it's in the best interest of D&D to consolidate those two story lines sooner rather than later (unless they want the Dragonstone characters to be featured less than they have in any season to date). So if Stannis were to arrive in episode nine, then episode ten would need to show several things: 1. How the significant characters at the Wall react to his arrival, and 2. How Sam is able to ensure Jon is elected as the Lord Commander. I think the finale will have enough material to cover without stuffing all of that in, and I don't think these developments should be rushed for the sake of leaving Stannis' arrival for the penultimate episode moment. Thinking thematically, it would make sense to have Stannis offer to legitimize Jon in episode nine, to act as a contrast to the patricide Tyrion commits (again, making the assumption that Tyrion will kill Tywin & Shae as the episode nine moment). Then Jon makes his decision in the finale, and becomes the 998th Lord Commander.

But, obviously anything could happen, and the characters they cast for Castle Black will definitely give us a better idea as to how the whole scenario will play out. But, given the fact that Oberyn Martell will almost assuredly be given more focus than he did in the books, I just don't see how the moment of Stannis arriving at the Wall could supplant any of the episode ending moments for the final three episodes (though I agree it's a climactic, episode ending moment). If the duel between the Red Viper and Gregor takes place in the eighth episode, it sets the expectation that the major event of episode nine will be Tyrion's execution. Obviously that isn't how it plays out, and the end result will be just as shocking for non-readers (they may expect him to escape, but I don't know how many of them would expect him to murder both his lover and father in the process).

Can it just be time for season four to air, already?

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I just don't see the season, as a whole, being structured in such a way that Stannis' arrival at the Wall makes sense as the episode nine moment. Especially since it's in the best interest of D&D to consolidate those two story lines sooner rather than later (unless they want the Dragonstone characters to be featured less than they have in any season to date). So if Stannis were to arrive in episode nine, then episode ten would need to show several things: 1. How the significant characters at the Wall react to his arrival, and 2. How Sam is able to ensure Jon is elected as the Lord Commander. I think the finale will have enough material to cover without stuffing all of that in, and I don't think these developments should be rushed for the sake of leaving Stannis' arrival for the penultimate episode moment. Thinking thematically, it would make sense to have Stannis offer to legitimize Jon in episode nine, to act as a contrast to the patricide Tyrion commits (again, making the assumption that Tyrion will kill Tywin & Shae as the episode nine moment). Then Jon makes his decision in the finale, and becomes the 998th Lord Commander.

But, obviously anything could happen, and the characters they cast for Castle Black will definitely give us a better idea as to how the whole scenario will play out. But, given the fact that Oberyn Martell will almost assuredly be given more focus than he did in the books, I just don't see how the moment of Stannis arriving at the Wall could supplant any of the episode ending moments for the final three episodes (though I agree it's a climactic, episode ending moment). If the duel between the Red Viper and Gregor takes place in the eighth episode, it sets the expectation that the major event of episode nine will be Tyrion's execution. Obviously that isn't how it plays out, and the end result will be just as shocking for non-readers (they may expect him to escape, but I don't know how many of them would expect him to murder both his lover and father in the process).

Can it just be time for season four to air, already?

I always pictured the Oberyn vs. Gregor duel to take place in episode 7. Then Tyrion could take a break in episode 8, giving time for Jon to do his suicide mission and Stannis to arrive as the ending to the episode. Otherwise, I agree with almost every word of this.

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IMO the big moments of Season 4 will be:

EP 2: The Purple Wedding

EP 6: The Kingsmoot

EP 7: The Taking of Meereen

EP 8: The Red Viper Duel

EP 9: The Wall battle, Stannis arrives, Tyrion kils Tywin and Shae

EP 10: Only Cat, Uncat, Jon's election

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I also think it's a fantastic idea to have the people running for Lord Commander be Jon, Janos, and Bowen Marsh. That WOULD be a great way to build up his character for a bigger role in Season 5. I can see them cutting Cotter and Denys though :frown5:

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I'm with the people who would rather leave theon out for at least a season.

The whole reason you felt so bad for him in the books was because it was left up to your imagination what happened to him and you could tell how bad it was because of how much he had changed.

If they keep showing him getting worse and worse in the show people are just going to get bored. I'm not saying they're right to be bored but they will.

Having said that, Ramsey hunting osha/rickon might be interesting.

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I'm with the people who would rather leave theon out for at least a season.

The whole reason you felt so bad for him in the books was because it was left up to your imagination what happened to him and you could tell how bad it was because of how much he had changed.

If they keep showing him getting worse and worse in the show people are just going to get bored. I'm not saying they're right to be bored but they will.

Having said that, Ramsey hunting osha/rickon might be interesting.

I think the best option is to have him hunting Rickon with Ramsay and being punished off-screen.

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I'm with the people who would rather leave theon out for at least a season.

The whole reason you felt so bad for him in the books was because it was left up to your imagination what happened to him and you could tell how bad it was because of how much he had changed.

If they keep showing him getting worse and worse in the show people are just going to get bored. I'm not saying they're right to be bored but they will.

Having said that, Ramsey hunting osha/rickon might be interesting.

I totally disagree. The reason you felt sorry for him is that GRRM hammered you over the head with how horrible his situation is, not much different from the show. I didn't really care until near the end of ADWD. All the sudden there is this revisionist history how the show is doing wrong b/c people don't care about Theon, but in reality caring about Theon is a long game.

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I totally disagree. The reason you felt sorry for him is that GRRM hammered you over the head with how horrible his situation is, not much different from the show. I didn't really care until near the end of ADWD. All the sudden there is this revisionist history how the show is doing wrong b/c people don't care about Theon, but in reality caring about Theon is a long game.

Yeah I get that too. Like I said I'm fine with how the show has done his story so far but I just felt that we've got the gist of how bad theons got it in the show just now and if he isn't gown for a while its left up to the viewer imagination how bad he's getting it off screen...

And then boom!! Deformed, grey haired, no teeth Alfie Allen in the 5th season to really up the sympathy levels.

But hey! There's not much the books and the show can do wrong for me so I don't really mind. I just like talking about it on these forums.

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I totally disagree. The reason you felt sorry for him is that GRRM hammered you over the head with how horrible his situation is, not much different from the show. I didn't really care until near the end of ADWD. All the sudden there is this revisionist history how the show is doing wrong b/c people don't care about Theon, but in reality caring about Theon is a long game.

Yeah I get that too. Like I said I'm fine with how the show has done his story so far but I just felt that we've got the gist of how bad theons got it in the show just now and if he isn't shown for a while its left up to the viewer imagination how bad he's getting it off screen...

And then boom!! Deformed, grey haired, no teeth Alfie Allen in the 5th season to really up the sympathy levels.

But hey! There's not much the books and the show can do wrong for me so I don't really mind. I just like talking about it on these forums.

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Not doable for a TV show. They can't realistically leave out Alfie Allen for two or three seasons, then get him to reappear several years later. Allen will have gotten a new job by then.

A good idea is to keep Theon mostly off-screen for the first half of Season 4, much like Jaime Lannister in the second season, and then show him as the grey-haired, starved, broken-down "Reek", fully brainwashed at this point, in the last few episodes. (His arc in Season 4 would probably end with Reek's first chapters in ADWD.)

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I called something like this as soon as Ramsay said, 'What a hunt that would be.' I really hope they do it, I love Iwan Rheon and Alfie Allen, and also really don't want Osha and Rickon to be simply left out for the next few seasons. It would serve as a nice kind of redemption for Theon if he could help them in some way, maybe provoking a little more empathy from non-book readers.

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I agree that Euron will probably just take over in Yara's absence, and she won't be in a position to do anything about it. I thought the kingsmoot was a great scene in the book, but I can see how it would be a big diversion of resources from more central plots.

I agree that Ramsay capturing Yara, and Theon subsequently escaping with Yara makes a lot of sense. Fitting Jeyne into the story would always have been problematic, and even in the books I had trouble caring about Asha's adventures at little Northern castles that nobody cares about.

I do hope we see Ramsay hunting Rickon. Ramsay hunting with his evil dogs is iconic, and it gives Osha a chance to do something. Maybe Rickon and Osha manage to get to Manderlay's protection while fleeing Ramsay, and Manderlay has Davos smuggle them out? Then Manderlay makes pies and goes to Winterfell?

Basically I'm ok with massive alterations to the Northern plot line as long as we get Frey pies, some form of Northern conspiracy, and Theon rescuing somebody.

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Not doable for a TV show. They can't realistically leave out Alfie Allen for two or three seasons, then get him to reappear several years later. Allen will have gotten a new job by then.

A good idea is to keep Theon mostly off-screen for the first half of Season 4, much like Jaime Lannister in the second season, and then show him as the grey-haired, starved, broken-down "Reek", fully brainwashed at this point, in the last few episodes. (His arc in Season 4 would probably end with Reek's first chapters in ADWD.)

Yeah that would work.

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