[BOOK SPOILERS] Theory: Ramsay hunts a Stark in Season 4?

[Pinkie Baelish]

I agree, but any word that they're casting Arienne?

No word on it so far, and I doubt they will, but fingers crossed that they do so. I've heard talk of Janina Gavankar being interested in GOT, so here's hoping she gets cast as Arianne :drool: . They can get away with casting a Hispanic actor for Oberyn, given that apart from the skin tone, which could be fixed with a tan, Pascal looks the part. But I think with Arianne, you definitely need someone with more North African/Mediterrenean/Indian features.

[James Sucellus]

How the hell would Yara pose as Arya Stark? This is some of the most insane theorising I've ever read.

[King Tommen]

How the hell would Yara pose as Arya Stark? This is some of the most insane theorising I've ever read.

As with any theory involving the Jeyne Poole storyline, an established character being put into that spot would not be posing as Arya. They would only be filling the role of Ramsay's plaything that Theon would need to rescue. The assumption with all of these theories is that the show would not bother introducing a fake Arya because it would be extremely problematic to depict without the audience calling bullshit and it would involve retconning a new character into the mix that we have never even heard mentioned previously.

[The Monkey]

As with any theory involving the Jeyne Poole storyline, an established character being put into that spot would not be posing as Arya. They would only be filling the role of Ramsay's plaything that Theon would need to rescue. The assumption with all of these theories is that the show would not bother introducing a fake Arya because it would be extremely problematic to depict without the audience calling bullshit and it would involve retconning a new character into the mix that we have never even heard mentioned previously.

You're right, but it could work, hear me out.

As of now, Wardenship of the North hasn't passed permanently to House Bolton in the eyes of the crown, but only temporarily until the son of Tyrion and Sansa comes of age. To keep the actor playing Roose Bolton occupied next season, they could have him (and possibly also Walder Frey) travel south to attend the royal marriage. (That would provide some mighty interesting meetings, particularly with Sansa) After Joffrey's death the original plan is obviously moot, with Sansa missing and Tyrion about to lose his head. Roose Bolton himself could crack the idea of intermarrying Bolton and Stark through fake-Arya. They could use some random northern girl, but Jeyne Poole would work too. People didn't question the sudden appearance of the Tullys in S3 (to my knowledge), why should they question this? Besides, Jeyne Poole was mentioned once in season 1, when Sansa spoke to the septa in KL.

[Ser Luke.]

No word on it so far, and I doubt they will, but fingers crossed that they do so. I've heard talk of Janina Gavankar being interested in GOT, so here's hoping she gets cast as Arianne :drool: .

Gavankar would be great as Arianne :agree:

[Ser Luke.]

She's far too young to be fake Arya.

I'm not sure why Leaf is being dismissed? Bran has no ASoS material left; concluding the season with him meeting Bloodraven seems natural.

I'm also thinking she's probably Leaf, which would be just as good a stopping point as him meeting Bloodraven.

[Nezzer]

You're right, but it could work, hear me out.

As of now, Wardenship of the North hasn't passed permanently to House Bolton in the eyes of the crown, but only temporarily until the son of Tyrion and Sansa comes of age. To keep the actor playing Roose Bolton occupied next season, they could have him (and possibly also Walder Frey) travel south to attend the royal marriage. (That would provide some mighty interesting meetings, particularly with Sansa) After Joffrey's death the original plan is obviously moot, with Sansa missing and Tyrion about to lose his head. Roose Bolton himself could crack the idea of intermarrying Bolton and Stark through fake-Arya. They could use some random northern girl, but Jeyne Poole would work too. People didn't question the sudden appearance of the Tullys in S3 (to my knowledge), why should they question this? Besides, Jeyne Poole was mentioned once in season 1, when Sansa spoke to the septa in KL.

This is a great idea. The more screentime Roose gets, the better. I'd love to see Roose and Walder looking at each other and barely holding a laughter when Joffrey dies, and you could see in their faces that they are thinking "kings dying in the marriages we attend to has become a trend".

[Janicia]

I agree that fArya could happen next season, but I don't love that storyline. Also, I find the arguments that they've been playing up the Theon / Yara bond for a reason to be compelling.

The Theon / Yara arc could go something along the lines of: Theon and Ramsay hunt Rickon for a while but give up, Yara attempts her rescue but it fails (possibly because Ramsay has Theon betray the Ironborn in some way, echoing Moat Cailin), and Ramsay captures her. By this point, Balon is dead, and Euron has taken over. Euron wants to extricate himself from the North and get rid of Yara, so he makes a treaty with Bolton to marry Yara to Ramsay and withdraws the Ironborn peacefully. Bolton and Ramsay then take credit for ending the Ironborn invasion and invite the Northern nobility to Ramsay's wedding at Winterfell.

[James Sucellus]

I think the Fake Arya/Theon plotline is the strongest material from the past 2 books and shouldn't be fucked with too much. It'd be way less powerful seeing a commander of murderers suffer than it would an innocent teenage girl.

[Ramsay Gimp]

This is a great idea. The more screentime Roose gets, the better. I'd love to see Roose and Walder looking at each other and barely holding a laughter when Joffrey dies, and you could see in their faces that they are thinking "kings dying in the marriages we attend to has become a trend".

Ha! That would be awesome

[King Tommen]

I think the Fake Arya/Theon plotline is the strongest material from the past 2 books and shouldn't be fucked with too much. It'd be way less powerful seeing a commander of murderers suffer than it would an innocent teenage girl.

I think the fake Arya plotline was a whole lot to do with nothing and served as a plot device in order to get all the Northerners to Winterfell (this can be easily accomplished in lots of different ways). I think it was made even weaker because I didn't give a flying fuck what happened to Jeyne Poole because she was a cipher with no personality or developed character traits, outside of "scared". I didn't buy that Theon was that dedicated to saving her outside of him not wanting Ramsay to get his mitts on an innocent because it was established that he barely even knew her from Winterfell.

I also thought it was ridiculous that any of the Northerners would buy the sham and indeed it appeared the vast majority of them didn't. So I don't understand the point of the farce since it really didn't fool anyone of consequence to any degree. I'm also assuming that Jeyne Poole will float out of the story now that she has served her purpose which is another waste of screentime.

You need to get everyone to Winterfell and you need Theon to finally find the balls to help a girl escape from Ramsay's clutches. That's the important part of the storyline. The "fake Arya" crap is just needless confusion for the sake of confusion.

On the show, I do care about what happens to Yara and I do buy that Theon and Yara clearly have a much stronger sibling bond than what was demonstrated in the books. Therefore, it makes sense that Theon would be most motivated to save Yara from Ramsey's clutches. Dramatically, there are no good arguments to go against this development if you want Theon's redemption arc to be most effective.

[YTDN]

The thing about Theon saving Jeyne is the fact he barely knew her. He had no deep connection to her. The fact he chose to save a completely unimportant girl, with no political value who meant nothing to him, out of nothing but concern for another human being, shows so much more moral backbone than him saving his sister.

I really don't get the idea among some people that the fake Arya plot is unrealistic or pointless. Fakes and pretenders have been used several times in history- during the Russian 'Time of Troubles' there were no less than three 'False Dmitris' trying to claim the Russian throne. And 'Arya' being in Winterfell is not just a plot device to get the Northerners to Winterfell- it also gets Jon killed. He would have never broken his vows and tried to march south if it weren't for him thinking Arya was in danger.

[King Tommen]

The thing about Theon saving Jeyne is the fact he barely knew her. He had no deep connection to her. The fact he chose to save a completely unimportant girl, with no political value who meant nothing to him, out of nothing but concern for another human being, shows so much more moral backbone than him saving his sister.

I really don't get the idea among some people that the fake Arya plot is unrealistic or pointless. Fakes and pretenders have been used several times in history- during the Russian 'Time of Troubles' there were no less than three 'False Dmitris' trying to claim the Russian throne. And 'Arya' being in Winterfell is not just a plot device to get the Northerners to Winterfell- it also gets Jon killed. He would have never broken his vows and tried to march south if it weren't for him thinking Arya was in danger.

As an audience member, I want to have stakes in the characters on the screen. I don't want a random cipher introduced that I'm told I'm supposed to care about when I'm given no other reason to other than "she's innocent". The show's tendency to consolidate known characters into other roles is a pretty good indicator that they aren't going to introduce a character playing an important role only to dismiss her when her job is done when they can use a character they've taken time in developing for the audience instead.

And I can think of lots of ways to either goad Jon into leaving and/or have the NW turn on him as there are more than enough triggers going on with Jon at that time to make his death plausible. That should not be the reason to continue on with the stupid "fake Arya" story.

I think the fact that the Jeyne Poole story has not been touched on or set up in any way, shape or form to this point is a good indicator that the writers understand this.

[James Sucellus]

I think the fact that the Jeyne Poole story has not been touched on or set up in any way, shape or form to this point is a good indicator that the writers understand this.

What? In this show um.. no plots are ever touched on or set up in any way until they're about to be used. Unless you seriously believe Oberyn Martell won't be in the next season because zero reference has been made to him or Dorne as of late? Mace Tyrell wasn't in S2 or S3 so I'm guesing he's never gonna be used either?

By far this show's biggest weakness is the lack of set-up, which is weird as that element of structure is actually one of the ASOIAF books' biggest strengths. Everything in the books seems to have been set up for a while before it happens, whereas the narrative in the show feels like a series of disconnected sketches.

I absolutely do not trust the showrunners to give us another newly written Theon storyline. Season 3 showed us what happened when they attempted that, and it was a fucking waste of everybody's time.

The thing about Theon saving Jeyne is the fact he barely knew her. He had no deep connection to her. The fact he chose to save a completely unimportant girl, with no political value who meant nothing to him, out of nothing but concern for another human being, shows so much more moral backbone than him saving his sister.

This.

[Khal-a-bunga]

@ Direwolf_Dreamer

You seemed to have missed all of the references to both Dorne (throughout all three seasons, actually) and Mace Tyrell (who was mentioned several times this season). Maybe you just don't pay enough attention? Because honestly, the show is very good at setting up elements it will introduce later down the line.

[YTDN]

What? In this show um.. no plots are ever touched on or set up in any way until they're about to be used. Unless you seriously believe Oberyn Martell won't be in the next season because zero reference has been made to him or Dorne as of late? Mace Tyrell wasn't in S2 or S3 so I'm guesing he's never gonna be used either?

By far this show's biggest weakness is the lack of set-up, which is weird as that element of structure is actually one of the ASOIAF books' biggest strengths. Everything in the books seems to have been set up for a while before it happens, whereas the narrative in the show feels like a series of disconnected sketches.

I think part of this is just simply cutting down on exposition, and it keeps them free to rewrite things differently if they have to. For example in Season 2 they were deliberately vague on the status of Shireen- Mel's dialogue could be taken as Stannis having no children at all or just no sons, so if they decided to cut Shireen they could. This is one piece of evidence I think for Jeyne being cast- if they cast such a plot-unimportant character as Shireen, someone like Jeyne who practically moves the plot in the North is almost certainly in.

But yeah, what you said about the Martells is a good point. There's been no mention of the Martells sending a delegation to KL- the last mention came in Season 2, when Tyrion sent of Myrcella.

I absolutely do not trust the showrunners to give us another newly written Theon storyline Season 3 showed us what happened when they attempted that and it was a fucking waste of time.

Well, D&D have said that Theon's one of their favourite characters, and Alfie Allen one of their favourite actors, which is why they gave him so much screentime. I don't think his season 3 storyline was awful- both Alfie and Iwan are fantastic actors, and their interaction was great- but it seems like a good concept that was let down by shoddy writing and pacing, and was dragged out way too long.

The fact that Theon is D&D's fave is another point in favour of them adapting his ADWD plot accurately(-ish), since it's such excellent writing there doesn't seem much reason to change it.

[James Sucellus]

@ Direwolf_Dreamer

You seemed to have missed all of the references to both Dorne (throughout all three seasons, actually) and Mace Tyrell (who was mentioned several times this season). Maybe you just don't pay enough attention? Because honestly, the show is very good at setting up elements it will introduce later down the line.

I seriously doubt the vast majority of the casual audience have any idea who Elia Martell was. They didn't even know who Roose Bolton was pre-RW because the show saw fit to give us pointless Tywin/Arya scenes instead of setting up the Boltons.

[James Sucellus]

Well, D&D have said that Theon's one of their favourite characters, and Alfie Allen one of their favourite actors

Well, they may have some pretty strange ideas regarding ASOIAF but they have good taste at least. I also would concede that the Theon storyline was great in Season 2 and pretty much the only plot they didn't fuck up. Though I missed the Bastard of Bolton/Reek element, I liked the scene of Theon burning the letter to Robb.

The fact that Theon is D&D's fave is another point in favour of them adapting his ADWD plot accurately(-ish), since it's such excellent writing there doesn't seem much reason to change it.

This is a fair point. they obviously liked Jaime's plot in ASoS, so they gave it faithful treatment. They're on record about not caring about Stannis, so we uh... don't get a character resembling Stannis in the show. Their fondness for Theon may mean we're more likely to get a faithful Reek/Jeyne plotline.

[King Tommen]

I seriously doubt the vast majority of the casual audience have any idea who Elia Martell was. They didn't even know who Roose Bolton was pre-RW because the show saw fit to give us pointless Tywin/Arya scenes instead of setting up the Boltons.

You don't need to know who Elia Martell is until the Red Viper tells you about her. And any audience member who was paying attention knew who Roose Bolton was since he was in almost every scene with Robb during S2 and was playing Robb's main trusted advisor during that time. Then there was that entire bit at Harrenhaal with Jaime which was almost identical to how things played out in the books. Just because things aren't exactly the same as the books doesn't mean that they aren't accomplishing the same thing.

As has also been mentioned, Myrcella being shipped off to Dorne has been mentioned numerous times by Cersei and Tyrion (as recently as the Season 3 finale actually). And Mace Tyrell was namechecked at least 3 times in S3 so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that Dorne and Mace have not been set up.

Here's the difference between the need to set up the Jeyne Poole story and say, talk about who Elia Martell is in earlier seasons:

For the Jeyne Poole story to be plausible, the audience is asked to accept that in Season 1, a good friend of Sansa's from Winterfell was with her at King's Landing. Then this girl was snatched away during the purge of all the Stark entourage after Ned's capture. This is necessary so that when they trot her out a few seasons later and say "we've had this Northern girl under wraps the entire time just for this occasion" (a stretch in itself but let's not go there), that the audience says "oh yeah, that's where that girl went.

You could write around this by saying "Well all of this was off-screen so it could have plausibly happened" but the big problem is that we never saw this girl with Sansa at King's Landing, we saw all the grisly details of the Stark entourage getting butchered and there was no indication or hint that anyone possibly would be spared or that this girl was even there in the first place.

So if you try and whip her out now, it looks like a copout. It appears as if you're retconning an event into the show that the audience had a firsthand account of. And that's not getting into the whole problem about how little this actress would probably end up looking like Arya. So it's just a bad idea all around and my assumption is that since they didn't even attempt to put those beats into the Winterfell people getting slaughtered montage, then that was the plan all along.

[James Sucellus]

I really don't see how it's different to the Reed kids not having been in Season 2, or Edmure only having appeared in Season 3 after no real build-up. Jeyne Poole just needs to be an innocent Northern girl, the rest can be tampered with if need be.

I just don't want bloody "Yara", a character I find annoying and beyond miscast, to be part of one of my favourite storylines in the books. The Reek plot is up there with the best of ASOIAF for me. Don't see why it has to be so messed with.