The Hatred of the Ironborn and Curious Historical Counterparts (which are popular)

[Greyjoy pook]

!)Im not being hostile i just get annoyed at people whjo thing the Anglo-Saxons?Normans "cicvilised" the gaels.The culture changed radically with the introduction of Christianity which asn't impoosed by some outside force but adopted by the people themselves.

2)The only time the irsih raided the island of GB was between the fall of the roma empire and ireland own adoption of Christainty .This period isnt that long.

3)The noramd didnt change ireland that much they brought rabbits and some names and were absorbed by the irish population.It wasnt until Henry VIII (In the 16th century) that irish culture changed(at least that when the brehon laws were outlawed)

let me finsih off by aying when Richard DEclare incaded waterford in the early 12th century Irish reaving was over by almost 6 centuries

I'm not saying that's truly the case (regarding "civizling") - why would I make a comparison with the Ironborn and admit my admiration for them only to have some sort of view that the Normans/Anglo-Saxons civilized the Celtics in Britain? They merely replaced one moral system with another, and it just so happens we call that "civilization". I don't agree either, but alas, that's history and its popular perceptions for you.

:agree:

Preying on the weak and bragging about it makes a very disdainable character. Moreover they are crybabies once confronted with people who can fight back and will do so on their own terms --> Crannogmen. Gods, I hate the Ironborn so much.

I really don't care much about the historical implications, although one has to acknowledge that there is a considerable romanticism concerning the Vikings, at least in continental Europe. Therefore I can imagine the Ironborn to have fans.

On the contrary, I spot an inversion of sorts. Often the same people that claim to love the idea of Vikings, the historical "Irish" and Pirates loathe the Ironborn, yet look at the Starks with rose tinted glasses. Not everyone of course, but I'd certainly wager more than a romanticism of vikings which would lead to an admiration of the Ironborn. I'm saying there's a massive inconsistency in this sense, either due to historical ignorance of what Vikings/Pirates actually did (plausible) or Stark-tinted lenses (equally plausible).

Well Ironborn do use longboats which is very viking like, and so is the shieldwall tactic which they also use. And what you said about going to war naked is not something we ever see Ironborn do. Nagga the sea dragon is also pretty much lifted directly from norse mythology.

While i agree that the celts were savage, and so are the ironborn that does not mean that they relate to each other.

In this case, the Celts who fought naked would moreso correspond to pre-Andal invasion Ironborn rather than the sort we see first hand in the series, not that I'm suggesting these sorts of Ironborn did do this, but they would have been culturally different in a few ways, even if very similar in others. The point is simply put cultural similarities between the two groups - it's too simplistic to say they're just the Vikings of Westeros. They take inspiration from a few cultures, just as the Westerlands remind me not just of Southern England, but also medieval Castile.

And on that note I really need sleep for now. I'll reply again later :).

[Toxspecific]

If we're comparing them to jocks, well then the Ironborn are jocks and so are the Northmen, who by some indicators seem to be tougher than the Ironborn despite having some definite similarities in the way they are described.

[Pero the first of His name]

While i do not like their culture i find part of some characters interesting.

Their culture is not as pitiful as Dothraki at least.

[JanAgro]

I'm not saying that's truly the case (regarding "civizling") - why would I make a comparison with the Ironborn and admit my admiration for them only to have some sort of view that the Normans/Anglo-Saxons civilized the Celtics in Britain? They merely replaced one moral system with another, and it just so happens we call that "civilization". I don't agree either, but alas, that's history and its popular perceptions for you.

There at 500 yrs between the invasion of thw Anglo Saxons int o Britain and the Normans arriving.THey are not the same groups!!!.The anglo saxons come from south germany the normand come from france(i know they started out as vikings but by the thime they invaded england they were french.When the normand invaded england it was the anglo saxons they were conquering.!!!Like in Ireland they brought names and rabbits to england(as well as the feudal system) let me reperat the normand and anglos saxons are not the same group!!!.

Alos when the saxons inaded Britain they didnt bring cicilisation with them the ROmans had done that already 300 yrs earlier under Claudius.In may ways the Roman_British were more cicilised than the Saxons.After the saxon invasion tons of the advancement that the romans built were destroyed/forgotten.It was Irish monks who re-introduced christainity to england for example

[The wildling in Sunspear]

There's no Ironborn that I like except for Asha and Rodrik.

:agree:

[Northern Nomad]

In this case, the Celts who fought naked would moreso correspond to pre-Andal invasion Ironborn rather than the sort we see first hand in the series, not that I'm suggesting these sorts of Ironborn did do this, but they would have been culturally different in a few ways, even if very similar in others. The point is simply put cultural similarities between the two groups - it's too simplistic to say they're just the Vikings of Westeros. They take inspiration from a few cultures, just as the Westerlands remind me not just of Southern England, but also medieval Castile.

And on that note I really need sleep for now. I'll reply again later :).

I am not saying that, they have unique traits different from the vikings. It's just that the only similarities that you have given, that prove that the ironborn are like the celts, is that they were both brave, savage and use iron, and even then the ironborn did not discover iron like the celts did, the andals did. I just don't see how there is insperation from the celts which is unique to the celts.

[Rufus Leek]

If we're comparing them to jocks, well then the Ironborn are jocks and so are the Northmen, who by some indicators seem to be tougher than the Ironborn despite having some definite similarities in the way they are described.

The tough-guy culture is more prominent in the north than in the rest of the 7 kingdoms, but the northmen don't make a practice of robbing their neighbors and abducting people to make serfs or salt wives. The ironmen don't seem to be quite as malevolent as the Dothraki, but most of them seem to have a predator mentality.

[Toxspecific]

Yeah. Northmen are the keep-to-themself sort of tough dudes. I always found the comparison between them and Ironborn interesting.

[blood of the dragoon]

Economically or in terms of story? If the former, can they really be faulted for being born on a series of islands with little economic viability? If the latter, I highly disagree, especially compared to the exceedingly slow-paced Dornish, the neutral and mostly useless Vale and the perpetual "tool" that is the Reach

Agreed on story, disagree on everything else. The north ispretty much a wasteland, but it's not populated by monsters (except the Boltons).

And they wouldn't be called the IRON islands if they had no marketable resources.

[Mad Monkey]

It's implied in the text that the Manderlys killed and ate three people.

The Iron Islanders are worse though, if only because their culture is overtly parasitic.

[Kaerys Snow]

On the contrary, I spot an inversion of sorts. Often the same people that claim to love the idea of Vikings, the historical "Irish" and Pirates loathe the Ironborn, yet look at the Starks with rose tinted glasses. Not everyone of course, but I'd certainly wager more than a romanticism of vikings which would lead to an admiration of the Ironborn. I'm saying there's a massive inconsistency in this sense, either due to historical ignorance of what Vikings/Pirates actually did (plausible) or Stark-tinted lenses (equally plausible).

That is tricky! The problem is that people in their romantic illusions about the Vikings may not relate the Ironborns' disgusting practice of preying upon the weak to the Vikings. And yes, Stark favouritism probably also factors into that - maybe it is even the strongest reason for people to dislike the Ironborn, not to mention Theon's betrayal (which may not be a betrayal in the legal sense, but still one understands this sentiment easily enough).

[Lord Reaver]

That is tricky! The problem is that people in their romantic illusions about the Vikings may not relate the Ironborns' disgusting practice of preying upon the weak to the Vikings.

Which would be completely correct of course, there is very little relation between the Scandinavian Norse cultures and the Ironborn one. It is amusing to see someone actually argue that the Vikings have been 'romanticized' when there has been an ongoing campaign of painting them black since the 9th century. It's like seeing someone complain that the Jews have been treated too well through history.

[Pootie Tang]

I love the Ironborn. I don't know why people hate them.

Well they make a living by raping, pillaging, stealing and raiding. They are often praised for being some sort of pioneers of women's rights though that notion is more bullshit than the contents of Gendrys chamberpot. They have this notion that they are unfairly oppressed (what is dead may never die), though I think that just stems from pure jealousy of the greenlands that thei Ironborn think that they are better than.

But worst of all, they are so goddamn proud of it all. They could at least show some self distance and/or remorse.

[Pootie Tang]

Which would be completely correct of course, there is very little relation between the Scandinavian Norse cultures and the Ironborn one. It is amusing to see someone actually argue that the Vikings have been 'romanticized' when there has been an ongoing campaign of painting them black since the 9th century. It's like seeing someone complain that the Jews have been treated too well through history.

Whoa, if one equates the black painting of the vikings with the opression of the jews, the latter suddenly comes across as a much cooler and resilient people since they have endured their hardships, where the Vikings are a lost culture today. Guess all that is left to do is to find who the Jews are in ASIOAF to learn who'll really be running things in the end. ;)

[Lord Reaver]

Lost culture ? Speak for yourself, bud. Of course, if you're stupid enough to think of 'culture' as what Vikings are portrayed as in Hollywood, then I could see how you could arrive at such an erroneous conclusion.

[Hukthagz]

Lost culture ? Speak for yourself, bud. Of course, if you're stupid enough to think of 'culture' as what Vikings are portrayed as in Hollywood, then I could see how you could arrive at such an erroneous conclusion.

"Muh heritage" thing going on with you is getting old. We get it, Vikings were your ancestors, no need to bash people over it.

[binga]

They are horrible, violent, and lustful. To be fair though, a lot of people in Westeros are like that. It is just that they are so brazen about it and so in love with their own stupidity. That being said I don't hate them completely. I like Victarion, Euron is a cool evil pirate, and Theon is going on a bit of a redemption arc. Balon and Asha are annoying to me.

[Kaerys Snow]

Which would be completely correct of course, there is very little relation between the Scandinavian Norse cultures and the Ironborn one. It is amusing to see someone actually argue that the Vikings have been 'romanticized' when there has been an ongoing campaign of painting them black since the 9th century. It's like seeing someone complain that the Jews have been treated too well through history.

Living in the 21st century, one can observe a lot of romanticization, stemming from various sentiments: anti-christian (about the supposedly pagan Vikings as opposed to the dark, church dominated Europe), anti-authority (about the supposedly free Vikings as opposed to the enslaving 'feudal' system of Europe), adventurism (self explanatory), strength and all those manly traits, and - although thanksfully almost extinct - the racial superiority nonsense. All of this, except the last, can easily be found in reenactor groups e.g. where the Vikings enjoy considerable popularity; in my country there are about 10 times as many groups focussing on the Vikings than on the actual contemporary inhabitants of my country.

There are still remnants of the medieval "campaign of painting them black" such as crappy movies (Pathfinder anyone?), but I have indeed trouble noticing a real campaign anymore with all those Viking lovers I see.

In last years International Medieval Congress in Leeds I attended two sessions about games and the perception of the middle ages (No.728 and 828). Guess what, one speaker came to the conclusion that the Norse people are seriously beloved and romanticized by both developers and gamers.

I will not even start commenting on the jews stuff, really.

[Lord Reaver]

"Muh heritage" thing going on with you is getting old. We get it, Vikings were your ancestors, no need to bash people over it.

I'll stop as soon as people stop

1) Equating Ironborn 1:1 with Vikings

2) Spouting stupid Hollywood crap about Vikings (or more correctly Norse culture)

[Lady Flandrensis]

In general, I think it's perspective. We didn't have to live with either Vikings nor Ironborn, but we do care about the Westerosi and live their times with them in the books. The Ironborn are brutes to the "good guys" of Westeros and we live through that. Had we such detailed history as ASOIAF about the Viking raids, there may not be such affection for them now.