Sweetrobin, sweetsleep, lemoncakes, Sansa and the gruesome fate of kinslayers

[The weirwood knight]

It is already indicated by Littlefinger that Robert Arryn aka Sweetrobin is going to die soon to give way for Harry the heir and his bride to be Sansa to rule the Vale.

Meanwhile Arya was tutored about poisons in Bravos: " Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons. A few grains will stop a hand fom shacking and make a man feel calm and strong.....Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end. The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes, pies and honeyd wines." (AFFC)

Littlefinger has already ordered Maester Colemon to use sweetsleep to treat Sweetrobin's seizures.

Sansa/Alayne Stone took on a surrogate maternal role with regards to him.

Sansa already accepted that lies if "kindly ment" have no harm in it.

It is easy to foreshadow that at one point she sees killing her sickly cousin as a gentle kind of "mercy" towards him and above all, a necessity.

We know that Sansa is fond of lemoncakes and in a recent interview GRRM hinted that lemoncakes will appear.

I think it's easy to say she will poison her own cousin under Littlefinger's order and thus become a kinslayer.

Killing him softly with sweet lemoncakes and sweetsleep.

However it is stated that "No man is so accursed as the Kinslayer" and the gruesome fates of kinslayer's in ASOIAF seem to prove it.

- The son of Bael the bard was flayed by the Boltons after killing his father.

- Gregor Clegane is rumored to have murdered his own father and sister. Died screaming.

- Craster was killed by his own guests.

- Theon is accused of being a kinslayer, IMO because he unknowingly had his own bastard son murdered at the mill at the Acorn water.

Ramsay had his way with him.

So what will become of sweet Sansa if she is accursed in the eyes of gods and men?

Can we expect such a character to meet a happy ending in the endgame or rather a gruesome death ;)

[Aegor Blackfyre]

Mistake, sorry

[Aegor Blackfyre]

I fear that Sansa is getting WAY too close to Petyr Baelish and I believe that that will not end well for her. She has seen many things since leaving Winterfell that in my opinion this has damaged her severely inside. Hopefully that will not make her kill her cousin, I believe that Robert will likely die just from the sweetsleep which is administered to him on Petyr's orders to treat his seizures ( which is according to the books lethal if used too frequently ) so hopefully Sansa will remain uninvolved in the death of the last male of House Arryn ( which I think is sad ).

If it comes to Sansa actually killing him though...I think GRRM is quite implacable in his sense of "karma". As you wrote many and more have payed for their actions of kinslaying and violation of the Guest Right though not all have. We can see that there are some people whose punishment has been more severe than that of some others like the Freys - Guest Right, and Tyrion - Kinslaying ( unless the A+J=T theory is true which would actually mean that Tyrion is NOT a kinslayer ). So to sum up, IF Sansa does kill Robert then she will either die in some horrible manner with her plans broken OR she will not have a happy ending if she lives. She will definitely be punished for it though, of that I am sure.

[Berelyn]

Interesting theory!

You see, pretty much everyone agrees that Sansa's big arc gonna be defeating Petyr. Yet somehow I don't see her doing it physically (so many here root for her to introduce him to Moon Door, but just like... wtf), but rather sorta... outsmarting him. Well, not outsmarting, but surprising him, perhaps. Maybe he grows to confident, cozens her into poisoning lemoncakes but she wriggles out of it and blames him for the death of both Aryyns while managing to flee the justice?

Anyway, good find

[LordAlexOfTheWolds]

Is killing a cousin classed as kinslaying?

[Newstar]

- Theon is accused of being a kinslayer, IMO because he unknowingly had his own bastard son murdered at the mill at the Acorn water.

Whaaaat? That's news to me.

If it comes to Sansa actually killing him though...I think GRRM is quite implacable in his sense of "karma". As you wrote many and more have payed for their actions of kinslaying and violation of the Guest Right though not all have. We can see that there are some people whose punishment has been more severe than that of some others like the Freys - Guest Right, and Tyrion - Kinslaying ( unless the A+J=T theory is true which would actually mean that Tyrion is NOT a kinslayer ). So to sum up, IF Sansa does kill Robin then she will either die in some horrible manner with her plans broken OR she will not have a happy ending if she lives. She will definitely be punished for it though, of that I am sure.

Yes. In-universe, kinslaying seems to bring on terrible fates (the examples listed above, jury's still out on Tyrion). Those who harm innocent children also seem to come to very nasty ends. So if Sansa not only commits an act of kinslaying but also an act of kinslaying involving an innocent child, she is so screwed. So screwed.

Is killing a cousin classed as kinslaying?

Yes. Rickard Karstark considers Robb's execution of him kinslaying, even though their blood ties are far more distant than that between first cousins.

[Petyr Patter]

Just to point something out: Littlefinger is in no hurry to have Robert Arryn die, though he probably figures it is inevitable. His entire position in the Vale is dependent upon his marriage to Lysa Arryn and his wardship of Robert Arryn. If both are dead, then Harold Hardyung inherits the Vale, and suddenly there is no place for Littlefinger. If he tries to deny Harold the Erie and the Lordship of the Vale, the other Lords would largely side against him. Harry is apparently quite popular. Hence, why he wants the betrothal so badly, undoubtedly before Robert dies. This puts him on the same side as Harold, and he probably plans on using Sansa to manipulate Harold into doing what he wants. I highly suspect he has plans well beyond the Vale.

Thats not to say He doesn't plan on killing young Arryn eventually, or Harold, or Sansa, but it just isn't in his interest to have Arryn die.

[Rashtibram]

I've always stated that Sansa is likely to die in TWOW, for a multitude of reasons which have nothing to do with this. Good find, however; I never before noticed that kinslayers tend to die off. I can picture a scenario where Sansa unwittingly murders Sweetrobin due to Littlefinger's scheming; then, realizing she's a kinslayer, she pretty much goes insane and tricks Littlefinger in a way that results in his death. In her madness, however, she somehow reveals that she killed Sweetrobin, and the Lords of the Vale execute her through the Moon Door. I would be very satisfied with this.

[Robin the Mighty]

i do not think killing a cousin should be consider kin slaying as marrying one is not incest (those times, duh)

[Robin the Mighty]

Whaaaat? That's news to me.

yeah for me too, but theon was 10 when he reacehd wf and the boy is about 7 when he is 21 so it can not be his

Yes. Rickard Karstark considers Robb's execution of him kinslaying, even though their blood ties are far more distant than that between first cousins.

karstark was an idiot who he forgot the values of the north

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I find Sweetrobin is likely to live. The cripples, rejects, and weaklings seem to survive. Bran lives while Robb died. Aegon the Conqueror made the Vale surrender by flying to the Eyrie, and showing it was not impregnable. Visenya also gave the lord of the Vale a ride on her dragon. If Dany or another dragon rider does the same, it would have large effects on Sweetrobin, and help his disease.

[The weirwood knight]

About theon Kinslayer

Well, it's a theory from the Winterfell Huis Clos

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Contents.html

Actually I'm convinced of it.

Long story short, nobody accused Theon of kinslaying when he supposedly killed Bran and Rickon.

Likewise being a ward/hostage nobody would accuse Eddard Stark as kinslayer if he choped Theon's head off, that's the risk of being a hostage after all.

He was known as Theon turncloak throughout the north.

However Theon was known to be the miller's wife lover for a time and a womanizer in general.

And he has trouble to recognize familiar faces, it is stated that he didn't even recognize his sister Asha when he came back to Pyke.

The younger boy slaughtered at he mill resembled Rickon's age (4) and it is quite possible he fathered him.

Theon was first accused as a kinslayer from the hooded man, who probably infiltrated Winterfell from outside.

He wasn't accused of it by the spearwives in the weirwood the same day, but later on.

This implies the hooded man shared the information with Mance.

And finally Crowfood Umber accused him outside of Winterfell.

Someone must have investigated what happened at the mill and shared it with Crowfood Umber and Mance/spearwifes.

Also Theon had terrible nightmares about the whole incident for some unconscious reasons i guess ;)

[Aegor Blackfyre]

yeah for me too, but theon was 10 when he reacehd wf and the boy is about 7 when he is 21 so it can not be his

karstark was an idiot who he forgot the values of the north

Calling Karstark an idiot is quite harsh and besides, untrue. He was blind with a hunger for vengeance, true enough, he lost both his sons to House Lannister you CANNOT expect him to be happy. Robb didn't act when Catelyn released Jaime, and Robb also gave lots of amenities to the Lannister boys. This was treason for Karstark and I understand that. I believe Robb should have backed down and let him live on. It would have helped the war effort. It was actions like this one that cost Robb the war and made the Boltons and the Freys to turn their cloaks.

I find Sweetrobin is likely to live. The cripples, rejects, and weaklings seem to survive. Bran lives while Robb died. Aegon the Conqueror made the Vale surrender by flying to the Eyrie, and showing it was not impregnable. Visenya also gave the lord of the Vale a ride on her dragon. If Dany or another dragon rider does the same, it would have large effects on Sweetrobin, and help his disease.

Now that would be a sight to see xD

Just to point something out: Littlefinger is in no hurry to have Robert Arryn die, though he probably figures it is inevitable. His entire position in the Vale is dependent upon his marriage to Lysa Arryn and his wardship of Robert Arryn. If both are dead, then Harold Hardyung inherits the Vale, and suddenly there is no place for Littlefinger. If he tries to deny Harold the Erie and the Lordship of the Vale, the other Lords would largely side against him. Harry is apparently quite popular. Hence, why he wants the betrothal so badly, undoubtedly before Robert dies. This puts him on the same side as Harold, and he probably plans on using Sansa to manipulate Harold into doing what he wants. I highly suspect he has plans well beyond the Vale.

Thats not to say He doesn't plan on killing young Arryn eventually, or Harold, or Sansa, but it just isn't in his interest to have Arryn die.

Well the question that was posted on this topic is about what would happen to Sansa IF Petyr used her to kill Robert. I agree with you that Petyr is in no hurry to kill him or that he wants to kill him at all. Robert's seizures are severe, that is well known to all and sweetsleep is an efficient way to help temporarily. If Robert does die which is highly likely it is only going to be due to the high consumption of sweetsleep. Littlefinger ironically, doesn't have to lift a finger to kill Robert. He is sickly by nature and the child of a very old man and an almost infertile woman. The fact that he came to be is strange in itself. Jon Arryn was well past his years of fertility when he married Lysa Tully and besides, he had failed to have children with his two previous wives which is a clear sign of infertility.

Petyr though, as a smart man is planning ahead due to the high likelihood of Robert dying. If he doesn't he only has to marry Sansa to Robert instead of marrying her to Harry the Heir and his plans work finely once again.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I find Sweetrobin is likely to live. The cripples, rejects, and weaklings seem to survive. Bran lives while Robb died. Aegon the Conqueror made the Vale surrender by flying to the Eyrie, and showing it was not impregnable. Visenya also gave the lord of the Vale a ride on her dragon. If Dany or another dragon rider does the same, it would have large effects on Sweetrobin, and help his disease.

my thought too. sansa decides that SR should live

[firepoet]

I'm not sure I'd include cousin as kinslaying. As far as I know, the only kinslaying that has been mentioned in the books has been IMMEDIATE family, not just anyone you happen to be related to you.

[Queen Elsa]

So what will become of sweet Sansa if she is accursed in the eyes of gods and men?

Can we expect such a character to meet a happy ending in the endgame or rather a gruesome death ;)

After so many things she had lost and suffered, I doubt if she will ever get a full blast happy ending but bittersweet most likely once she gets back to her ruined home and reunites with her remaining siblings. There is also a theory that says Sansa will survive the series because of the "Snowcastle" foreshadowing --> interpretation: Sansa rebuilding Winterfell. Not sure if Petyr will be helping her (coz he was in that scene) but it is also believed she's going to slay the "giant"(who is thought to be LF). Looks like she is not going to be accursed but favored instead.

Anywhoops, Sweetrobin is an annoying brat but he's only a motherless boy child who cares about sweet-milk nothing about the bloody game of thrones. I don't think Sansa has the heart to slowly kill her cousin. Alayne though, yeah. Will Alayne be punished? I hope so, and no "Alayne made me do it" excuse. She's a guest of Lord Sweetrobin; killing her host is a violation of the sacred guest right. Even if LF is the mastermind, she is his pawn (same scenario with Tywin being the mastermind of the Red Wedding and the Freys and Boltons his puppets). I agree, she will be screwed big time. If she does the opposite though - save SR - bloody good for her, but she's still screwed. LF will make sure she will fall down from the top of the ladder, unless she finds a way to screw him first.

[Newstar]

The thing about Sansa and Sweetrobin is that GRRM likes to take his characters and put them into impossible situations where they make choices that they never, ever would have made if not placed under incredibly extreme circumstances. It's almost like an intellectual exercise for him:

What would it take for Brienne to betray Jaime, a man she owes her life and seems to love?

What would it take for Tyrion to turn his back on the Lannisters once and for all?

What would it take for Jon to do something that would lead his Night's Watch brothers to turn on him?

And so on. I think Sansa is, by dint of GRRM's plot machinations, is being very slowly and very carefully maneuvred by GRRM into a similar position:

What would it take for Sansa, a good-hearted, compassionate person, to agree to be complicit in the murder of an innocent child?

I think in AFFC we're seeing the answer to this question take shape. If the child in question was suffering from a painful, agonizing illness; if a person she respected and even admired persuaded her that the child was going to die anyway; if she was told that there would be more blood on her hands if she didn't consent to it; and if she was convinced that the alternative would be worse for herself and for Littlefinger, then, well...I don't think Sansa's complicity in framing Marillion was a once-off. I think it was a warmup for Littlefinger talking her into going along with something much, much worse.

I'm not sure I'd include cousin as kinslaying. As far as I know, the only kinslaying that has been mentioned in the books has been IMMEDIATE family, not just anyone you happen to be related to you.

Well, if you accept the theory that Robb's downfall was in part the rebound effect from the kinslaying curse (killing Rickard Karstark), then evidently the gods of Westeros don't agree with you.

...In all seriousness, though, there's nothing in the books to indicate that the kinslaying curse only applies to killing immediate family members. Even if Sansa is somehow exempt from the kinslaying curse by virtue of a non-immediate-family loophole--which I very much doubt--GRRM tends to bring the karmic hammer down pretty hard on characters who harm innocent children.

[fourtwintea]

I kind of got the feeling that there's a possibility Littlefinger is Robert's dad. He and Lysa had a thing, and Lord Arryn seemed like he might've been infertile to me. I'm not sure if that's possible, but its a theory. Then they'd both be kinslayers.

[alienarea]

Maybe Sansa takes a liking to Harry the Heir and she poisons Sweet Robin to end Littlefingers influence? It would not be the first time that Sansa has poor judgement in men.

[Napyura]

George will let the boy live. Just wait and see.