Sweetrobin, sweetsleep, lemoncakes, Sansa and the gruesome fate of kinslayers

[HosteenOsteen]

Fell Sweetrobin lives. Precisely because one might so readily expect him to die.

[ChillyPolly]

Sansa/Alayne Stone took on a surrogate maternal role with regards to him.

A fact which LF may not be taking into account; as he is equally unaware of the bonding/transformation that occurred in both of them as they descended the mountain.

Sansa already accepted that lies if "kindly ment" have no harm in it.

Jumping from that to murder is quite a leap.

I think it's easy to say she will poison her own cousin under Littlefinger's order and thus become a kinslayer.

Easy to SAY, sure. But I don't buy it.

[revenant6]

Crackpot: The controversial scene is Littlefinger assaulting Sansa (total guess here). Sansa takes her revenge by skinchanging Robin (maybe during a seizure when he is at his lowest mental facility) and orders Littlefinger to "fly". Sansa begins to rule the Vale using Robin as a puppet.

Total and utter speculation. No basis in writing anywhere.

[Ladywhiskers]

yeah for me too, but theon was 10 when he reacehd wf and the boy is about 7 when he is 21 so it can not be his

karstark was an idiot who he forgot the values of the north

He could have sired a son at age 14. People used to all the time. But it's the younger boy Theon could have fathered, at age 17 or so.

[Luddsthirdmorph]

People seem top forget that Sansa cannot marry anyone while Tyrion lives. Sure the marriage may be annulled on the grounds of non consummation but no one actually KNOWS the marriage was not consummated and Sansa would need to appear before the high septum "hymen intacta." This is not about to happen too soon.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

The thing about Sansa and Sweetrobin is that GRRM likes to take his characters and put them into impossible situations where they make choices that they never, ever would have made if not placed under incredibly extreme circumstances. It's almost like an intellectual exercise for him:

What would it take for Brienne to betray Jaime, a man she owes her life and seems to love?

What would it take for Tyrion to turn his back on the Lannisters once and for all?

What would it take for Jon to do something that would lead his Night's Watch brothers to turn on him?

And so on. I think Sansa is, by dint of GRRM's plot machinations, is being very slowly and very carefully maneuvred by GRRM into a similar position:

What would it take for Sansa, a good-hearted, compassionate person, to agree to be complicit in the murder of an innocent child?

I think in AFFC we're seeing the answer to this question take shape. If the child in question was suffering from a painful, agonizing illness; if a person she respected and even admired persuaded her that the child was going to die anyway; if she was told that there would be more blood on her hands if she didn't consent to it; and if she was convinced that the alternative would be worse for herself and for Littlefinger, then, well...I don't think Sansa's complicity in framing Marillion was a once-off. I think it was a warmup for Littlefinger talking her into going along with something much, much worse.

Well, if you accept the theory that Robb's downfall was in part the rebound effect from the kinslaying curse (killing Rickard Karstark), then evidently the gods of Westeros don't agree with you.

...In all seriousness, though, there's nothing in the books to indicate that the kinslaying curse only applies to killing immediate family members. Even if Sansa is somehow exempt from the kinslaying curse by virtue of a non-immediate-family loophole--which I very much doubt--GRRM tends to bring the karmic hammer down pretty hard on characters who harm innocent children.

Very nice post, Newstar. I like your way of thinking, I believe you have persuaded me. :)

I think you are onto something with your musings about how George likes to set things up for his characters. He's often said this world is a "shades of grey" world and your post really illustrates one way that this is true. I can see how George would be setting this up....

- Sansa getting into her role as Alayne

- Sansa helping LF with his political machinations concerning the LP's of the Vale

- Sansa telling the maester to administer more sweetsleep or doing it anyway despite the maester's warnings

- "Father and I have larger concerns."

We see time and time again through these instances that Alayne is willing to go beyond Sansa's moral code and do things that she would not do because of, perhaps, her fear of LF or her own fate if found. George does love to set up our favorite characters into moral crises that blur the line of black and white, good and evil. This seems like a great opportunity to do that once again.

I know everyone expects Sweetrobin to already be a goner because of the double dose of sweetsleep, but there are so many reasons that makes little sense to me. The Maester might have been concerned about the danger to Robin's health, but if he really thought it could kill him, why would he trust the decision making skills of the Lord Protector's bastard daughter? That's spectacularly awful Maester-ing. Besides, if Robin dies then Sansa and Littlefinger are done at the Vale, as there's no way Harry marries 'Alayne' when she has absolutely nothing to offer.

With the maester scenario it could go both ways. However, with all that we learned of the maesters and their true nature, and their goals of political machination, I don't think it would be unusual for the maester to continue to administer the doses. Maesters do wear chains, after all. If LF ordered the administration of sweetsleep, what is the actual chance of the maester standing up and speaking out against it? Just some things to think about. The maester does not stand up to Robin when Robin throws his fits. What makes anyone think he would stand up against someone like LF? I know Robin is the Lord of the Eyrie, but he's still a kid.

[Faceless Man Friday]

The way I see it, GRRM can accomplish Sansa learning from LF and becoming to play the game, without the need to kill Sweetrobin. I think it more likely that we'll be lead to believe she's going to do it, only to pull the ol' switcheroo and have her poison LF instead. It sets her up as the new LF, but keeps her from some terrible fate down the line.

I see this more likely than Sansa becoming Littlefingers protege. Like many see Arya leaving the FM before she becomes a mindless assassin, my guess is Sansa turns the tables on LF before she kills SR. While this thread doesn't directly address it, the question raised does beg the question as to what will be Sansa's final chapter. I have long thought that while all of the Stark children have gone their separate ways this story cannot end without some sort of a reunification of the Starks, worldly or otherworldly. That is why I do not think Sansa will be lost to LF but will dispose of him somewhere along the way to finding her true purpose which I believe involves the Others. Like all of the other Stark kids, her story line will end with the Others at the conclusion of a Dream of Spring. By then Winter will have come and gone.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Name Arryn generally means Light Bringer, is of English, Indian origin, Name Arryn is a Masculine (or Boy) name.

Look it up.

:cool4:

And one of the meanings of the word Stark is "death-like". Look it up. :cool4:

So we have Ms. Death-Like playing mother to young Light Bringer. Hmmm

[Balerion's Whiskers]

I think Sansa will ultimately make her own choice about who she marries. She's been both betrothed and married with absolutely no say so in the matters and at some point is going to put her foot down. She's learning what it takes to be 'bastard brave' and starting to develop her own will. Obviously she can't be betrothed as Sansa Stark if she's still married to Tyrion, but Alayne can be betrothed to Harry...and, she may just say no. I think she's going to actually marry for love at some point and to hell with claims or titles...she might even choose a merchant or commoner. (she might not...she might choose fAegon)

I think there will be a meeting between Jon and Sansa, but doubt that it will be romantic...it will be a touching reunion though. Of all the Stark kids (and I'm counting Jon for these purposes) I think their paths will cross first. They have even thought warmly of each other through the series and I think Sansa will have a different perspective on being a bastard.

I think Sansa will take LF down and pin whatever crimes she can on him. She may even out him for trying to kill Sweetrobin. (who I think is LF's kid anyway) Of all the characters, I think she's going to show the most growth in the next book...and it won't all be good. She's going to get devious and vengeful, but I don't think it will consume her.

[rozemarijn]

I think Sansa will take LF down and pin whatever crimes she can on him. She may even out him for trying to kill Sweetrobin. (who I think is LF's kid anyway) Of all the characters, I think she's going to show the most growth in the next book...and it won't all be good. She's going to get devious and vengeful, but I don't think it will consume her.

Persuading the right people Sweetrobin is LF's kid might be more efficient as killing him. All his power over the Eyrie ... gone.

But she has to marry Harry in that case.

[Roose on the Loose]

So the convergence of access to sweetsleep, and the fact that it's best disguised in sweets and Sansa's love of lemon cakes is intriguing. It might even mean something. But if Sansa is to murder SR with lemon cakes, why go to all that trouble when SR is used to taking it as instructed. She could feed it to him in a tablespoon.

And there's so many people could threaten her more than SR. LF, Harry, The Mad Mouse. Myranda knows her secret.

btw: Sansa can sew, but can she bake? Arya might be a better cook than Sansa. Where's Hot Pie when you need him?

[rozemarijn]

And there's so many people could threaten her more than SR. LF, Harry, The Mad Mouse. Myranda knows her secret.

btw: Sansa can sew, but can she bake? Arya might be a better cook than Sansa. Where's Hot Pie when you need him?

What do you mean, she knows her secret?

[chrisdaw]

Family, duty, honor. In that order, SR is no blood relation to Alayne, but when Alayne becomes Sansa again, family comes first.

Sansa will decide who keeps SR and who is therefor lord protector of the Vale, for which that person will be grateful and loyal to Sansa. Both that person and Sansa will need SR to live to maintain their power in the Vale.

[Roose on the Loose]

What do you mean, she knows her secret?

Myranda said that the Night's Watch has a new LC, bastard of Lord Stark. So Sansa blurts out the name Jon Snow. Big ass rookie mistake.

[jeyneofthed'Ubervilles]

So the convergence of access to sweetsleep, and the fact that it's best disguised in sweets and Sansa's love of lemon cakes is intriguing. It might even mean something. But if Sansa is to murder SR with lemon cakes, why go to all that trouble when SR is used to taking it as instructed. She could feed it to him in a tablespoon.

And there's so many people could threaten her more than SR. LF, Harry, The Mad Mouse. Myranda knows her secret.

btw: Sansa can sew, but can she bake? Arya might be a better cook than Sansa. Where's Hot Pie when you need him?

Perchance Arya and Hot Pie will show up.

Arya- This is my friend Hot Pie.

Sansa- Of course he is.

[rozemarijn]

Myranda said that the Night's Watch has a new LC, bastard of Lord Stark. So Sansa blurts out the name Jon Snow. Big ass rookie mistake.

Nice one, never caught that. But I suspect she will not remain Alayne for long.

[shadow282]

Why would Sansa kill Robin?

It's not something that she would just decide to do on her own, murdering a child is totally against her character. And why would LF ask her to do it? It's too big a risk that she would say no and turn against him. Robin's going to die soon anyway, and if LF wants to poison him he could easily just keep making the maester give him sweetsleep or ask anyone else. LF wouldn't risk losing Sansa by asking her to do something like this, it's too big a risk.

[MaryaStone]

I've always stated that Sansa is likely to die in TWOW, for a multitude of reasons which have nothing to do with this. Good find, however; I never before noticed that kinslayers tend to die off. I can picture a scenario where Sansa unwittingly murders Sweetrobin due to Littlefinger's scheming; then, realizing she's a kinslayer, she pretty much goes insane and tricks Littlefinger in a way that results in his death. In her madness, however, she somehow reveals that she killed Sweetrobin, and the Lords of the Vale execute her through the Moon Door. I would be very satisfied with this.

And why would this be a satisfying ending for someone who gets unintentionally involved in a murder Littlefinger is resposible for but she is not guitly of commiting? Also, it is impossible to murder unwittingly, murder implies the culprit had the intention to kill. So how reading about Littlefinger driving an innocent person insane and making her feel responsible for his crimes to the point of causing her madness and unfair execution can be a satisfying ending you , as a reader can be looking forward to, and much less feel very satisfied with?

I don't get, or rather I prefer not to get it.

[BastardPrince]

she betrayed her family once and paid dearly for it. She will not betray her family again.

[kdcfan319]

Is killing a cousin classed as kinslaying?

By the way, I know we're focusing on ASOIAF, but you're mentioning the killing of cousins reminded me of the episode where Jaime visits Tyrion in his cell and they figure out that the only killing cousins doesn't have a name, as opposed to patricide, matricide, or fratricide. I'll check out the scene and see if it cuts to Sansa somehow.