If L+R does = J, who will drop the bomb?

[Joe Pine]

I'd rather that happened instead of Jon being like: "omg Howland I believe you!" :D "now I shall be king of Westeros because everyone will care and believe that I'm Rhaegar's son!"

I'll admit I preferred your Jon stays as the big dog one.

[The Idiots Lantern]

I'll admit I preferred your Jon stays as the big dog one.

"What will your new policies be, sire?"

"Woof woof growl!"

"So, increased tax on cat owners and rabbit in your bowl every night."

"HOWWWWWL!"

"Rabbit for EVERYONE every night!"

"Woof!"

[MidnightAurora]

@ baltan, King of the Starks, and Squarely rooted. Good points and nice thoughts I did not think of those possibilities.

I also find it interesting that all the younger siblings go to Jon or want to go to Jon when they are in trouble or need advice instead of Robb. I always found that odd and interesting at the same time.

[Pikachu101]

"What will your new policies be, sire?"

"Woof woof growl!"

"So, increased tax on cat owners and rabbit in your bowl every night."

"HOWWWWWL!"

"Rabbit for EVERYONE every night!"

"Woof!"

The perfect ending :D

[MidnightAurora]

They would if Rhaegar told them to. Frankly I'm not sure there's a lot of information getting to and fro the Tower of Joy in the middle of a war, which leads me to believe that Art Oz and Gerry may have simply had no clue what was going on until the Magnificent Seven rolled up, and also leads me to ask: how did Ned figure out where Rhaegar stashed Lyanna at all?

The 3 did know because one of the three mentioned if they were in KL Aerys would still sit the throne and not the usurper so some information had to be passed to them. Aerys knew where they were as another pointed out he sent Hightower there.

[Aurane Velaryon]

Howland Reed! he's the only one who can tell the whole story.

I'm still hoping that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard though. I'd hate for him to be a legitimate child, being a bastard is such a big part of his character, a grim reality that never be changed but everyone looks down on you for it, like Tyrion's dwarfism or Bran being a cripple. Rhaegar likely planned on marrying Lyanna but he'd want to impregnate her first which was the whole point of going after Lyanna in the first place. Once Lyanna was pregnant Rhaegar went off to war and postponed their marriage for a later date, a baby isn't a bastard until it pops out of the woman, they had plenty of time.

[MidnightAurora]

I did not even realized the crown and have to re-read that section in Book 1. It is also forshadowed that there is something important in the crypts in GOT and ACOK as Bran and Rickon dream Eddard in the crypts and he is sad, Jon dreams something is calling to him in the crypts, ACOK the six of them hide deep in the depths of Winterfell where no one found them also giving some truth to the story Jon heard from Ygritte.

[Gina of Dorne]

I always thought it would be Howland Reed, he was there after all.

[Pikachu101]

Howland tells Jon and Bran (somehow) backs it up, simple

I highly doubt Ned would leave marriage contract or anything that would pose a threat to Jon's safety lying around the place

Ned was going to tell Jon himself, he doesn't need evidence so Howland won't have any. The only way I can see Jon believing him is if Bran speaks up

[Ygrain]

Aerys, Joffery, Viserys, over and over again we are shown kings who do what they want, when they want, and answer to nobody getting dragged down and trampled by the same people who's laws and will they ignore. You might claim it was "possible" but this does NOT make it wise.

Joffrey was not a Targ and ruled after a successful rebellion, that always weakens the monarch's power. Viserys never even ruled, he had zero power to do as he pleased. Aerys was mad and went far over the top, and yet, still had the support of over half a kingdom.

THEY DID NOT GET A FREE PASS. They DID it, but they got backlash for it! When Rheagar's grandfather decided that Aerys was going to marry his sister Rheanys, there was an outcry that never really faded. It was one of the many, many things that contributed to the deterioration of Targaryan support among the nobles. Not least of which because when brother marries sister, this limits your ability to make important alliances though marriage. For a noble house still recovering from Aegon "marry whoever you want" The Unlikely, this was a very bad time to resurrect the incest tradition.

Provide textual proof, please. To my best knowledge, the Targs were a law unto themselves (Catelyn's PoV) and this is confirmed by Jaime suggesting Cersei to come out with their relationship, to which she replies that they wouldn't be able to get away with it because they are not Targs, as well as by Jorah suggesting Dany a polygamous marriage because that's a Targ thing to do.

The practice was resurrected for reasons of "The Prince that was promised." Why does everyone forget that when Jaenaerys II heard the woodswitch's prophesy, he commanded his children marry? Before that, you have go to pretty far back in the Targaryan Family Tree to find direct brother-sister incest between kings and queens.

And have you checked the existence of accessible females?

And, BTW, can you show some proof of an outcry over the marriage of Aerys and Rhaella?

Only problem is, by that token, if they're not married by the laws of the Seven, they're not married in the eyes of the Seven. Which means that to the Citadel and every practicing follower of the Faith, Jon is still a bastard born. He'll have claim to legitimacy in the North, but that's all. Which is ironic because the North is the one place where being Rheagar's son is unlikely to be any use to him.

So, you claim that the Northern lords' marriages are considered invalid in the South? Hardly the case, you know.

[MidnightAurora]

@booknerd2--

the only ones to know what really happen and left TOJ alive were Howland Reed and Eddard Stark and supposedly baby Jon. Eddard returned the Sword of Storm to Dorne and not sure at that point where Baby Jon is if Eddard had already sent him to Winterfell or if Jon was with him when he went to Dorne. I am sure LF and Varys never saw Jon nor had any interactions and Eddard put a stop to the gossiping early on. So I am assuming Varys and LF never put it together because they believe the story he is the bastard as LF likes to rub in Catelyn's face and neither have any moles in Winterfell where Eddard was for all of Jon's life. There are very few people alive left to hint to the possibility. Not even the northmen questioned Jon's parentage they may have gossiped, but none seem to think it could be Lyanna's. Eddard in his recollection did not seem to think Rhaegar as a bad guy so Lyanna must have spoken to him of something important because she made him promise and when he did she seemed relieved. Tyrion is right Jon and Eddard were too honorable to "play" the game and do what needs to be done.

[The Duke]

Even if Bran tree-sees it, he'd have an issue telling Jon, unless they dream speak again. Even Mormont's raven cawwing, "Jon Snow....Targaryan....Jon Snow....Targaryan" probably wouldn't get the job done. Given the setup, i'll be pretty shocked if it's not Howland Reed.

[MidnightAurora]

BloodBran and BranRaven sound delicious, and I hope my boy Rickon is having his daily in Skagos before he rides his unicorns!

My money is on some combo of Howland Reed/Jojen/Bran/BR/Weirwoods getting the story to Jon, since their powers of perception are all completely integrated through the weirwoods and the "old gods". I dont quite get the level of skepticism around the northern lords not recognizing Howland Reed or believing he is someone legitimate - they've all been around and he's been a lord for decades. Yes, he's a recluse, but still anyone traveling through the Neck is aware of the Craggomen and Greywater Watch, and therefore of Howland Reed. I dont think he will necessarily command the type of respect that the readers, and the Starks, give him, but they will know who he is. His kids just showed up at Winterfell - if Howland Reed had no name then why would they be allowed in at that level?

The above has nothing to do with whether or not 1) he will tell a bunch of Northern Lords about Jon Snow, or 2) if anyone will believe him if he does tell about Jon Snow. It may be that part of the "promise" was that if Ned dies before he tells Jon, Howland will fulfill his promise. That could be part of the reason Jojena and Meera were sent to Winterfell in haste. But it doesnt make sense to fulfill that promise to a bunch of northern lords of questionable loyalty.

I totally agree. it also begs the question why weren't his children sent to Winterfell earlier? I think that is also part of a reason (that would make sense to me) that Howland Reed would not leave his place for 15 years in order to keep the promise and not have something get out where someone would capture him for information. i think it is the same reason why Eddard never left Winterfell after Robert won his crown aside from the Greyjoy Rebellion. I have been racking my brain to think why Eddard would have very little contact with KL, and the rest of the south for 15 years if not to keep a secret safe and to keep Jon safe. Catelyn mentioned that Eddard was fiercely protective of Jon and some say he was also protective of Lyanna would would be a reason why he would be so protective of Jon.

I agree the pieces will be put together through Bran, Weirwood who see all and Eddard all sat by the tree and prayed, so i am sure if he were to confide in anyone he would confide in the old gods, also Howland Reed to cement the story and give Jon what Eddard could not do and sit down and talk and explain what happened. Eddard while in his cell was more delusional and guilt ridden over Jon than any of his children. He was guiltridden over killing Sansa's wolf and not doing a better job of protecting them, but he mostly thought of Jon and how he needed to sit him down and talk and explain. (explain what if not to tell him who his mother is). he told Jon he would talk to him when he saw him next, but did not think he would be killed before that happened.

[MidnightAurora]

If Rhaegar needed them as bodyguards then why didn't at least two KG go with him to The Trident?

And also Hightower was there. He was the LC and wasn't there at first when Rhaegar and Lyanna went to the ToJ, Aerys sent him looking for Rhaegar when he disappeared. Dayne and Whent helped R+L sneak away to the ToJ. Hightower then stayed there after Rhaegar commanded him to. But as soon s they got the word of The Trident and The Sack, Hightower, being the LC, he would have commanded both Dayne and Whent to follow him to Dragonstone where Viserys was. Dayne and Whent were friends of Rhaegar, Dayne was Rhaegar's closest friend, but Hightower wasn't. He wouldn't have stayed there protecting a Targ bastard when he could have been protecting the real heir. If Jon is a Targ bastard then as soon as Rhaegar died on The Trident then his command to them would have stopped unless Jon is a legitimate Targ. And KG also protect members of the royal family so they weren't breaking there orders when they were protecting Lyanna and Jon because Jaime was at KL.

No, not wishful thinking, it's called theorising.

People, may believe at first Aegon is the real deal but when Dany arrives in Westeros and hears about him, being "the Slayer of Lies" and remembering the cloth dragon from the HOTU, she'll declare Aegon a fake and maybe then later on a Blackfyre and then start a second Dance of Dragons against him.

And I didn't say that everyone going to flock to Jon because he fulfils a number of prophecies, I said he's just going to fulfil some and I didn't say anything about people supporting him as king.

And people may believe Howland, who isn't "a random cragman" he's The Lord of Greywater Watch and the Northern Lords do know him and he's known to be the only one to come from the ToJ with Ned. So people won't think he's making it all up as they know he's been to the ToJ and knows what happened there with Lyanna.

And Sansa was cast aside by Robb because she had married Tyrion by then and he couldn't have her in line as the Lannsters would get it if Sansa did. Jon still may be King in the North if the Northern Lords represent him with the will before Rickon shows up, and also Rickon and Bran aren't mentioned in his will in the line of succession so it would be going against his will if they crown someone else other than the person Robb intended to be his heir, Jon.

I can see where you are coming from. The Lannisters only forced Sansa to marry Tyrion so the Lannisters would have a legitimate claim to the North and Winterfell and also to try an appease some of the things from a book I have yet to read, but know the events through spoilers. Robb through Theon's trickery thinks his 2 younger brothers have been killed and no one seems to know where Arya is. Robb made Jon his heir like you say to keep the Lannisters from having a claim to the North, keeping the North and Winterfell in the Stark family and not some other power hungry house. Master Luwin knew and it was confirmed Bran and Rickon were alive at the end of ACOK, but died before he could divulge it and knew the brothers needed to split up to be safer. Someone told me that in later books a person tells a northern lord where to find Rickon and he was with Osha. I do not think the northern lords would want to give up the old gods so easily since Stannis' help comes with a hefty price tag. Robb made a smart play in his will. i did not even know he had a will then again I am new to the series and just started ASOS.

[MidnightAurora]

No, God no. I don't want Dany and Jon to end up with each other. And I think you missed the bit where I said Aegon is a Blackfyre, not a Targ. Blackfyres are seen by Targs and Targ loyalists as traitors and rebels, Dany, being "The Slayer of Lies" will see he isn't a Targ and is trying to steal her throne. The Lords supporting (F)Aegon will then think that Dany is going against her nephew and just wants the throne for herself. Thus staring a Dance of Dragons.

Actually if Howland was to ever reveal it to the Lords then they'd probably believe him as he's not like Roose or the Freys, he's a Stark loyalist and was a friend of Ned's. They'd believe Howland because he was there. He was there when Lyanna died and is known to have saved Ned's life at the fight at the ToJ.

And if he does tell the Lords then it would be because if people challenge his word that Jon's legitimised then Howland can reveal to them that Jon is actually already a legitimate Stark and Targ. And also there's probably something hidden in Lyanna's tomb that prove that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love. Some of the most popular theories are its Torrhen's Crown that Rhaegar gave Lyanna, a Targ wedding cloak, or even a Dragon's Egg.

Have you read the GNC? If not then please go and read it.

Sansa is cast aside because she's married to Tyrion at the time. Even if Sansa is married to Harry, by the time LF wants to use her to get The North, the Will will be revealed. And that will stop his plans to use The North through Sansa, and then Sansa will take care of him.

And the will is probably with Howland at Greywater Watch, not with Blackfish as Robb sent Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont, with the will, to the Crannogmen. And Jon might honour his brother's last wish to become his heir and not refuse his wish.

Although I have not read all the books yet, Halfhand did give Jon some good advice when he stated to Jon he planned for Jon to "pretend" to be an oath breaker to spy on the wildlings. Jon did not want to do it and Halfhand stated as long as you keep your vows true in your heart you are not an oath breaker. thus giving Jon a way to do his duties and maintain his honor and the same can be true if the will is presented to Jon. Jon would find a way to do both and the vows state they are protectors of the realm.

[MidnightAurora]

@ Idiots Lantern

i am stating if Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son he would gain the support of the North for being Stark. One has put int he books that I have read so far that the North are loyal to the Starks and would follow a Stark. I am not stating Rickon or Bran would be lessen because of it because they are Starks as well and the North would rally behind them as well. My point is the North would follow a Stark w/o hesitation. The other side of my earlier comment is that if Jon is Rhaegar's son Jon would have possibility the support of the Houses that supported Rhaegar during the rebellion like the Daynes, Dorne etc. He could solidify some things for some of the south and north and expel Stannis and other from the North and Winterfell.

[Pikachu101]

What's with all the debates on Jon's legitimacy?! Who cares, it's not like he's going to become king!

Unless of course he manages to convince a player to back him, but real legitimacy doesn't really matter if you have the right guy behind you ;)

[The Idiots Lantern]

So, you claim that the Northern lords' marriages are considered invalid in the South? Hardly the case, you know.

The Northern lords, especially those marrying Southern girls, are probably married according to Southern laws. Cat recalls her own cloaking ceremony, meaning she was married by a maester and Ned spared her the indignity of the bedding ceremony. Robb was also married by a maester, King in the North or no.

It's worth noting that this is the ONLY kind of wedding we ever attend or overhear anyone in Westeros talking about. What a marriage in front of the Old Gods would look like is never even mentioned. We don't know anyone who has ever been married that way, or even attended a wedding like that, even in the North. Northerners marrying eachother can probably get away with whatever they want, but whatever that might be isn't mentioned, which makes me think the ceremony isn't in wide use if it's used at all.

In which case, I don't see a reason why anyone in the Faith, which has an ambivalent attitude towards the Old Gods at best, would view the weirwood marriage as legally binding. Jumping over a broom might be fine if that's the tradition for your family, but the government is still going to want that marriage certificate before you start filing joint tax returns. Especially if you both happen to be legal heirs to huge fortunes who are married/engaged to people besides eachother.

[Ygrain]

The Northern lords, especially those marrying Southern girls, are probably married according to Southern laws. Cat recalls her own cloaking ceremony, meaning she was married by a maester and Ned spared her the indignity of the bedding ceremony. Robb was also married by a maester, King in the North or no.

Catelyn and Ned were married in Riverrun, so it was definitely under the Southern rite. However, IRRC, she recalls someone commenting on her naked breasts, so it seems that the bedding ceremony was performed as usually.

It's worth noting that this is the ONLY kind of wedding we ever attend or overhear anyone in Westeros talking about.

What a marriage in front of the Old Gods would look like is

never even mentioned

.

We don't know anyone who has ever been married that way, or even

attended

a wedding like that, even in the North. Northerners marrying eachother can probably get away with whatever they want, but whatever that might be isn't mentioned, which makes me think the ceremony isn't in wide use if it's used at all.

You need to re-read ADWD, then: you have there the marriage of Ramsay and fArya. A damn important marriage, as it lays claim to Winterfell.

In which case, I don't see a reason why anyone in the Faith, which has an ambivalent attitude towards the Old Gods at best, would view the weirwood marriage as legally binding. Jumping over a broom might be fine if that's the tradition for your family, but the government is still going to want that marriage certificate before you start filing joint tax returns. Especially if you both happen to be legal heirs to huge fortunes who are married/engaged to people besides eachother.

The Nightswatch oaths are binding, no matter which gods you swear to. The marriage of Alys Karstark is binding even though it was performed in the R'hllor rite.

Provide textual proof that a marriage before the old Gods is not considered as valid in the South.

- Oh, and speaking of textual proofs, you still haven't adressed this:

The Idiots Lantern, on Yesterday, 11:50 PM, said:

THEY DID NOT GET A FREE PASS. They DID it, but they got backlash for it! When Rheagar's grandfather decided that Aerys was going to marry his sister Rheanys,

there was an outcry that

never really faded

.

It was one of the many, many things that contributed to the deterioration of Targaryan support among the nobles. Not least of which because when brother marries sister, this limits your ability to make important alliances though marriage. For a noble house still recovering from Aegon "marry whoever you want" The Unlikely, this was a very bad time to resurrect the incest tradition.

Provide textual proof, please. To my best knowledge, the Targs were a law unto themselves (Catelyn's PoV) and this is confirmed by Jaime suggesting Cersei to come out with their relationship, to which she replies that they wouldn't be able to get away with it because they are not Targs, as well as by Jorah suggesting Dany a polygamous marriage because that's a Targ thing to do.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I was just going to say that Cat and Ned did have a bedding ceremony as she recalls it at Edmure and Roslyns. Also they were married by a Septon in the light of the Seven at Riverrun, Measters do not perform weddings. I think that where the marriage takes place seems to denote what ceremony is used. Also Catlyn is quite religious she has a sept built at Riverrun for her use and goes to pray etc. I can see her insisting her wedding is one in a Sept and Ned feeling all distressed at her having to marry him not Brandon and needing Hoster's support for the rebellion consenting to it.

The Weirwood wedding of FArya and Ramsey is done Old Gods style but his wedding to Lady Hornwood was done in a Sept as it is mentioned that he found a Septon willing to perform the ceremony. Both marriages are considered legally binding though.