If L+R does = J, who will drop the bomb?

[Mladen]

Or maybe i read too many theories on here? lol

And wow, i must have missed the crown thing, didn't know that.

Could the kingsguard be there, because they believe all the other heirs are either exiled or dead, and not because Lyanna/Rhaegar were married?

Don't know if the timeline is possible.

But thanks for the info!

They knew Viserys was alive, so they could choose between `mistress of dead Prince` or `their rightul King`. Somehow, they chose Lyanna and her child, and that speaks a lot.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Robb's will is not invalid, but Jon will refuse the job if he knows either Bran or Rickon is alive anyway. Howland Reed might reveal the truth if it is necessary, as for getting help from Dany and her disgusting beast.

Robb's will is invalid but even if it were valid it wont matter. Bran and Rickon come before sansa and jon. North will automatically flock to legit stark heir (Bran or Rickon).

As for the secret: howland will be under the strict owth from Ned. He wont tell anyone. If it comes to war with danny, they will fight as north vs danny, not targ vs targ. North is done with tagariyans

[The Prince of Ice]

Yes it does. They wouldn't have stayed there protecting a Targ bastard when they could have been protecting Viserys (who would've been the rightful heir if Jon is a bastard) and Rhaella (who was pregnant with Dany).

If you want to know more then I advise you to read the first page of the R+L=J thread, it has all the answers.

The Kingsguard follow orders of the royal family to be honest they could just be there to protect Rhaegar. Ive read R+L=J more times than i can count and that still doesnt prove that the KG were there to guard an heir. The kingsguard SERVE that means do whatever the king wants. So no it doesnt prove that Rhaegar had an heir bastard or not. It just proves Rhaegar was there being protected by the KG, them being there is no proof that an heir was there. Your acting like Rhaegar didnt think he needed body guards when he is the crown prince? Just saying the only proof that they were guarding an heir is how long they were at the tower thats it. Sorry for bursting your bubble but the KG being there only proves that a member of the Royal Family was there and thats it, if you say it proves more, prove it.

[Joe Pine]

Robb's will is invalid but even it were valid it wont matter. Bran and Rickon come before sansa and jon. North will automatically flock to legit stark heir (Bran or Rickon).

As for the secret: howland will be under the strict owth from Ned. He wont tell anyone. If it comes to war with danny, they will fight as north vs danny, not targ vs targ. North is done with tagariyans

Fair enough, but would it not help to reveal Jon as Ned's nephew and use his experience as a former LC of the NW to bring together the north if they're facing either Dany or the others? (Or both?)

I wouldn't expect Jon to claim to be heir of Winterfell but Rickon is a bit young to lead the north.

[jrmmsu88]

Smart money in my opinion is on Howland Reed breaking the news. If it's him that breaks the news it would likely be as the Northern army marches south through Moat Cailin.

I like the idea of Bran doing it but I think the logistics of it might be tough. I think the only way that would happen would be if Jon warged into ghost, but then you have trouble with the time table. Jon isn't in good shape at the end of DWD and Bran doesn't know about Jon's parentage yet. So it would be a very early reveal in TWOW if it was Bran to discover it.

How bout a WAG...Melisandre...I mean from the looks of it she's going to have to either revive or otherwise rescue Jon at this point and she already sees him in visions. Maybe she sees something that points to him as the Targaryen heir and connects the dots once they get to Winterfell. It could be later, I'm of the opinion that Stannis is going to die at some point. I really like Stannis but I just feel like GRRM is setting him up to bite the dust at some point and that will throw Mel into a tail spin.

Anyways just my two cents on the matter. Wanted to get into an active thread haha

[Old-Growth]

Except Jon has no claim to the Iron Throne, the Baratheons took the throne by force, making the Targaryen claim null and void. Jon's parantage has more to do with the prophecies and the Others than it does to being king.

I doubt Bloodraven, Jon Connington, or Ser Barristan would agree with you. And as Robert said to Ned Stark: "There are still those who call me Usurper". (House Darry, for example, tho we do not know what Lady Mariya would say about this.) Furthermore one reason why Robert was installed as King was his Targaryen ancestry. Tommen is a Lannister not a Baratheon, many know of Stannis' claim to this effect, and it would appear that some accept the same. Finally there are significant parts of the kingdom over which Tommen rules in name only if that: e.g. the Iron Islands.

De facto the Lannisters have the throne but only the Tyrells give them unequivocal support. De jure house Barratheon may be said to have the most recent official claim, but Stannis is not at present in a position to enforce that claim.

Finally your inference is a flat non sequitor.

[jrmmsu88]

The Kingsguard follow orders of the royal family to be honest they could just be there to protect Rhaegar. Ive read R+L=J more times than i can count and that still doesnt prove that the KG were there to guard an heir. The kingsguard SERVE that means do whatever the king wants. So no it doesnt prove that Rhaegar had an heir bastard or not. It just proves Rhaegar was there being protected by the KG, them being there is no proof that an heir was there. Your acting like Rhaegar didnt think he needed body guards when he is the crown prince? Just saying the only proof that they were guarding an heir is how long they were at the tower thats it. Sorry for bursting your bubble but the KG being there only proves that a member of the Royal Family was there and thats it, if you say it proves more, prove it.

Well if they were protecting Rhaegar then why didn't they go with him to the Trident? Hard to protect someone that's hundreds of miles away.

It would make more sense if he rode back with two of the KG and left one there with Lyanna to protect her if they were solely there for his protection.

Was Ned the one that broke the news to those three about the events on the Trident and KL?

[The Prince of Ice]

Well if they were protecting Rhaegar then why didn't they go with him to the Trident? Hard to protect someone that's hundreds of miles away.

It would make more sense if he rode back with two of the KG and left one there with Lyanna to protect her if they were solely there for his protection.

Was Ned the one that broke the news to those three about the events on the Trident and KL?

No the KG knew about it before Ned told them. After Rhaegar leaves your right it does give evidence to R+L=J but before that no.

[Old-Growth]

The Kingsguard follow orders of the royal family to be honest they could just be there to protect Rhaegar. Ive read R+L=J more times than i can count and that still doesnt prove that the KG were there to guard an heir. The kingsguard SERVE that means do whatever the king wants. So no it doesnt prove that Rhaegar had an heir bastard or not. It just proves Rhaegar was there being protected by the KG, them being there is no proof that an heir was there. Your acting like Rhaegar didnt think he needed body guards when he is the crown prince? Just saying the only proof that they were guarding an heir is how long they were at the tower thats it. Sorry for bursting your bubble but the KG being there only proves that a member of the Royal Family was there and thats it, if you say it proves more, prove it.

Judging by the discussion in the R+L=J thread, it would appear you have rather a lot of bubbles to burst. I would suggest you return to that thread and have at it, because right now your point of view is a loser. :)

[Pikachu101]

@Joe Pine well I'm sorry to say but everyone telling Howland he's lying is a lot more believable than Ned telling Manderly about Jon.

You're still not giving me an actual reason to why Ned would tell anyone when he doesn't need to. Ned never struck me as the type to break promises

[Joe Pine]

@Joe Pine well I'm sorry to say but everyone telling Howland he's lying is a lot more believable than Ned telling Manderly about Jon.

Ha ha it might be, but I'm assuming Mr Martin is attempting to wrap up the series in two books and going down that route will drag things out until Jon jumps on a dragon and a character turns round and says 'remember what Howland Reed said?'

So, I'll stick with my guess, unless there's a prop hidden in the crypt at Winterfell that would do the job.

You're still not giving me an actual reason to why Ned would tell anyone when he doesn't need to. Ned never struck me as the type to break promises

Ned is indeed that type, but with Benjen lost, who else can verify Howland Reed if he appears? Roose Bolton would recall Harrenhal Tourney and the events of Robert's Rebellion possibly but he'd have no motivation to want Jon as a legitimate Stark.

[Pikachu101]

Well it would make an impact on the story as Aegon is a Blackfyre so people will think afterwards that there are no more of Rhaegar's children, then Jon is revealed to be one, and he would also for fill a number of prophecies as well. And if Howland was to reveal it to everyone they'd probably believe him as he was the only survivor along with Ned to come back from the ToJ, where Lyanna was being kept.

As to Jon, I think Bran will find out either from Jojen, who was told by Howland, or he sees it though the the Weirwoods and then once him and Bloodraven have helped resurrect Jon, he'll then tell Jon somehow. And he doesn't have to go for the Iron Throne, he's already the heir to Robb...

Wishful thinking much?

If I saw silver haired, purple eyed Aegon and dark haired, grey eyed Jon I know who I'd think was lying. Aegon has Varys behind him! As if a bastard from the NWs can go against the deadliest player in Westeros.

Jon fulfil some prophecies so everyone flocks to him? :lmao: if that ever happens I'll think George gave up and decided to turn Westeros into the stories of our childhood where four kids with no experience in war or ruling can defeat the white witch and rule a kingdom with no problems :)

Yes I can totally see the great houses believing a random cragman, who nobody heard of. Did you see how all the houses believed and accepted Stannis' claims about Cersei's bastards?

Jon won't become KitN because Rickon and Sansa are alive, it would be totally out of character for him to take their inheritance. So can everyone please stop saying he would!

[Pikachu101]

Ned is indeed that type, but with Benjen lost, who else can verify Howland Reed if he appears? Roose Bolton would recall Harrenhal Tourney and the events of Robert's Rebellion possibly but he'd have no motivation to want Jon as a legitimate Stark.

You're missing the point, Ned never told anybody because he didn't think he'd die 14 years later!

He doesn't need dozen witnesses, all he needs is Jon to grow up so they can sit down and talk about his real parents.

Ned telling people is really unrealistic, I'm going to stick with Howland telling Jon and Jon being like "you're funny!" :rofl:

Maybe Bran sees something and then Jon will be like "NOOOOO!" :( :crying: "fuck it! I'm living in denial!"

Then he continues helping Stannis defeat the Others :D

[Florina Laufeyson]

Wylla

My pet theory is that Septa Lemore is actually Wylla. She seemed to be quite a prominent wet-nurse in the Dornish regions. She nursed Jon and later Edric Dayne. There is a likelyhood that she was also wet-nurse to Aegon. If she is Wylla, the stretch marks on her belly would make sense. And she was attractive enough to make for a good lie for Ned. Why is she in Aegon's company? Most likely because everyone believed Jon a bastard and now, a sworn brother of the Night's Watch. She seems to have been with Aegon's lot for some time. If Aegon is fake, what if shes really his mother? So many questions, ya know? Btw, this is just a little pet theory of mine.

As for the reveal, who knows. Howland could do it, Bran could do it, Benjen could come back from whereever he went and do it...who knows. I do really like the Torrhen's Crown theory though.

[Joe Pine]

You're missing the point, Ned never told anybody because he didn't think he'd die 14 years later!

He doesn't need dozen witnesses, all he needs is Jon to grow up so they can sit down and talk about his real parents.

Ned telling people is really unrealistic, I'm going to stick with Howland telling Jon and Jon being like "you're funny!" :rofl:

Maybe Bran sees something and then Jon will be like "NOOOOO!" :( :crying: "fuck it! I'm living in denial!"

Then he continues helping Stannis defeat the Others :D

Ha ha. Fair enough.

From my reading of the series, life is cheap in Westeros and I don't think Ned would assume he'd live to have a cozy chat with Jon. He'd possibly hope he'd never have to tell Jon.

Would he write it down for Catelyn to possibly discover or entrust one of his bannermen as the years went on?

Still the idea of Howland Reed dropping the bomb and no-one believing him might be brilliant.

[Pikachu101]

@Joe Pine I might agree with you on Ned thinking he'll never tell Jon the truth :(

In his head I'm sure it made perfect sense though…

[Booknerd2]

Actually the KG at the ToJ prove Jon's a legitimate son of R+L as they wouldn't stay behind to protect a bastard when Viserys and Rhaella are on Dragonstone.

by King of the Starks

Which always drove me nuts that somebody not even at the intelligence level of LF or Varys could put this together. But either no one has or nobody is talking. I always thought that Ned was so sure that nobody else knew besides who he knew did like Howland, Arthur, etc, but he might have been wrong. He probably did worry about that and that is why we are often reminded of this when he shuts down Robert and Cat in book 1 regarding the topic of Jon's mother. I still have the feeling that more people do know or surmised or suspected.

[Khal Shaggydog]

BloodBran and BranRaven sound delicious, and I hope my boy Rickon is having his daily in Skagos before he rides his unicorns!

My money is on some combo of Howland Reed/Jojen/Bran/BR/Weirwoods getting the story to Jon, since their powers of perception are all completely integrated through the weirwoods and the "old gods". I dont quite get the level of skepticism around the northern lords not recognizing Howland Reed or believing he is someone legitimate - they've all been around and he's been a lord for decades. Yes, he's a recluse, but still anyone traveling through the Neck is aware of the Craggomen and Greywater Watch, and therefore of Howland Reed. I dont think he will necessarily command the type of respect that the readers, and the Starks, give him, but they will know who he is. His kids just showed up at Winterfell - if Howland Reed had no name then why would they be allowed in at that level?

The above has nothing to do with whether or not 1) he will tell a bunch of Northern Lords about Jon Snow, or 2) if anyone will believe him if he does tell about Jon Snow. It may be that part of the "promise" was that if Ned dies before he tells Jon, Howland will fulfill his promise. That could be part of the reason Jojena and Meera were sent to Winterfell in haste. But it doesnt make sense to fulfill that promise to a bunch of northern lords of questionable loyalty.

[jrmmsu88]

Yes I can totally see the great houses believing a random cragman, who nobody heard of. Did you see how all the houses believed and accepted Stannis' claims about Cersei's bastards?

I'm not understanding why people think Reed wouldn't be accepted or at least known about in the North. I mean he's a Stark Bannerman and although the crannogmen are looked down on by some you have to be known to be looked down on. Besides the stories are out there about what happened at the ToJ insomuch as the actually fighting, I find it hard to believe that the whole detail of "Ned Stark and Howland Reed were the only survivors of that final skirmish of the rebellion" would be overlooked. Especially since Ned seems the humble sort, I mean he gives him credit for saving his life so I imagine he had mentioned it before.

I get the fact that he hasn't left the neck since the ToJ so he wouldn't be friendly with all the other Lords but I don't think he's unknown.

[Joe Pine]

BloodBran and BranRaven sound delicious, and I hope my boy Rickon is having his daily in Skagos before he rides his unicorns!

My money is on some combo of Howland Reed/Jojen/Bran/BR/Weirwoods getting the story to Jon, since their powers of perception are all completely integrated through the weirwoods and the "old gods". I dont quite get the level of skepticism around the northern lords not recognizing Howland Reed or believing he is someone legitimate - they've all been around and he's been a lord for decades. Yes, he's a recluse, but still anyone traveling through the Neck is aware of the Craggomen and Greywater Watch, and therefore of Howland Reed.

My point was that few of the northern commanders or lords would have known him if he's been a recluse since Roberts Rebellion. My guess was that possibly Manderly would know him.

I'd also assume that if Reed showed up at Winterfell after the battle(s), that he'd be dressed as a Northman would, with his lack of height being his only noticeable feature.

I dont think he will necessarily command the type of respect that the readers, and the Starks, give him, but they will know who he is. His kids just showed up at Winterfell - if Howland Reed had no name then why would they be allowed in at that level?

I thought they were dressed as Crannogmen, so very recognisable and that they also had a sealed parchment with them.

The above has nothing to do with whether or not 1) he will tell a bunch of Northern Lords about Jon Snow, or 2) if anyone will believe him if he does tell about Jon Snow. It may be that part of the "promise" was that if Ned dies before he tells Jon, Howland will fulfill his promise. That could be part of the reason Jojena and Meera were sent to Winterfell in haste. But it doesnt make sense to fulfill that promise to a bunch of northern lords of questionable loyalty.

So he wouldn't reveal himself until he met Jon.