If L+R does = J, who will drop the bomb?

[Jslay427]

First time I ever saw it referred to as L+R=J. Every book has new characters, and I'm hoping winds will introduce us to Howland Reed.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I find it hard to believe that the whole detail of "Ned Stark and Howland Reed were the only survivors of that final skirmish of the rebellion" would be overlooked.

Its totally not. Winterfell welcomes Meera and Jojen with open arms, much more so than the Walders. Im pretty sure the other Northern lords were cool with the guy who allegedly saved The Ned's ass. No one seems to go "Ewww crannogman." who are Northern anyway. The Southron lords tend to sneer at the Reeds.

[Ygrain]

by King of the Starks

Which always drove me nuts that somebody not even at the intelligence level of LF or Varys could put this together. But either no one has or nobody is talking. I always thought that Ned was so sure that nobody else knew besides who he knew did like Howland, Arthur, etc, but he might have been wrong. He probably did worry about that and that is why we are often reminded of this when he shuts down Robert and Cat in book 1 regarding the topic of Jon's mother. I still have the feeling that more people do know or surmised or suspected.

They wouldn't be able to figure it out if Ned left out the crucial piece of info that the KG had known about the Sack of KL. If he claimed they were ignorant of it - or even said he met them elsewhere as they were on their way to Dragonstone, because, correct me if I'm wrong, while his combat with Dayne is a common knowledge, its location is never mentioned - everybody would assume that the KG were merely following Rhaegar's orders (after all, when Rhaegar returned to KL, that's what he would have said, probably - that he ordered them to stay and guard Lyanna)

[Pikachu101]

I'm not understanding why people think Reed wouldn't be accepted or at least known about in the North. I mean he's a Stark Bannerman

Did you see how all the lords flocked over to Stannis Baratheon when he sent the ravens about Cersei's bastards?

No? OMG me neither! :o

But you know I guess Howland has a lot more prestige, because he's the man everyone talks about, he's involved in the Northern conspiracy, he has a reputation that all will be like "yeah I'm going to believe you", I mean how can anyone not believe him right?

Besides the stories are out there about what happened at the ToJ insomuch as the actually fighting, I find it hard to believe that the whole detail of "Ned Stark and Howland Reed were the only survivors of that final skirmish of the rebellion" would be overlooked. Especially since Ned seems the humble sort, I mean he gives him credit for saving his life so I imagine he had mentioned it before.

:o that makes perfect sense!

Because Howland's the only living person there then he must be telling the truth! I mean something that ridiculous (to the characters) has to be believable if Howland Reed said it!

In the medieval ages there was this idea that the higher ranking you are the more likely you're telling the truth. Howland's not ranked high enough to say something like that and get everyone to believe him.

[King of Winters]

Why would Howland will reveal anything to anyone when Ned himself didn't tell anybody? The only way we (as a reader) would know about jon's mother is through bran and he may not find the info relevant enough to tell Jon at all.

BTW Robb's will is invalid because it was set under the false pretense that bran and rickon are dead.

Howland would reveal it partly because I think Ned actually planned to tell Jon when he joined the NW so Howland would think the same as Ned, that Jon deserves to know the truth. And because of the will it would make Jon a legitimatised Stark as well as Robb's legitimisation of him.

And it doesn't make it invalid. Unless Bran and Rickon come forward before the will is shown then people will believe that Jon is the only remaining male Stark and should therefore be Robb's heir.

[King of Winters]

The Kingsguard follow orders of the royal family to be honest they could just be there to protect Rhaegar. Ive read R+L=J more times than i can count and that still doesnt prove that the KG were there to guard an heir. The kingsguard SERVE that means do whatever the king wants. So no it doesnt prove that Rhaegar had an heir bastard or not. It just proves Rhaegar was there being protected by the KG, them being there is no proof that an heir was there. Your acting like Rhaegar didnt think he needed body guards when he is the crown prince? Just saying the only proof that they were guarding an heir is how long they were at the tower thats it. Sorry for bursting your bubble but the KG being there only proves that a member of the Royal Family was there and thats it, if you say it proves more, prove it.

If Rhaegar needed them as bodyguards then why didn't at least two KG go with him to The Trident?

And also Hightower was there. He was the LC and wasn't there at first when Rhaegar and Lyanna went to the ToJ, Aerys sent him looking for Rhaegar when he disappeared. Dayne and Whent helped R+L sneak away to the ToJ. Hightower then stayed there after Rhaegar commanded him to. But as soon s they got the word of The Trident and The Sack, Hightower, being the LC, he would have commanded both Dayne and Whent to follow him to Dragonstone where Viserys was. Dayne and Whent were friends of Rhaegar, Dayne was Rhaegar's closest friend, but Hightower wasn't. He wouldn't have stayed there protecting a Targ bastard when he could have been protecting the real heir. If Jon is a Targ bastard then as soon as Rhaegar died on The Trident then his command to them would have stopped unless Jon is a legitimate Targ. And KG also protect members of the royal family so they weren't breaking there orders when they were protecting Lyanna and Jon because Jaime was at KL.

Wishful thinking much?

If I saw silver haired, purple eyed Aegon and dark haired, grey eyed Jon I know who I'd think was lying. Aegon has Varys behind him! As if a bastard from the NWs can go against the deadliest player in Westeros.

Jon fulfil some prophecies so everyone flocks to him? :lmao: if that ever happens I'll think George gave up and decided to turn Westeros into the stories of our childhood where four kids with no experience in war or ruling can defeat the white witch and rule a kingdom with no problems :)

Yes I can totally see the great houses believing a random cragman, who nobody heard of. Did you see how all the houses believed and accepted Stannis' claims about Cersei's bastards?

Jon won't become KitN because Rickon and Sansa are alive, it would be totally out of character for him to take their inheritance. So can everyone please stop saying he would!

No, not wishful thinking, it's called theorising.

People, may believe at first Aegon is the real deal but when Dany arrives in Westeros and hears about him, being "the Slayer of Lies" and remembering the cloth dragon from the HOTU, she'll declare Aegon a fake and maybe then later on a Blackfyre and then start a second Dance of Dragons against him.

And I didn't say that everyone going to flock to Jon because he fulfils a number of prophecies, I said he's just going to fulfil some and I didn't say anything about people supporting him as king.

And people may believe Howland, who isn't "a random cragman" he's The Lord of Greywater Watch and the Northern Lords do know him and he's known to be the only one to come from the ToJ with Ned. So people won't think he's making it all up as they know he's been to the ToJ and knows what happened there with Lyanna.

And Sansa was cast aside by Robb because she had married Tyrion by then and he couldn't have her in line as the Lannsters would get it if Sansa did. Jon still may be King in the North if the Northern Lords represent him with the will before Rickon shows up, and also Rickon and Bran aren't mentioned in his will in the line of succession so it would be going against his will if they crown someone else other than the person Robb intended to be his heir, Jon.

[TalalOfDorne]

Though it doesnt make much sense, Iv always thought it would be Sansa.

[sansa's sworn sword]

howland reed I think.

[Pikachu101]

No, not wishful thinking, it's called theorising.

People, may believe at first Aegon is the real deal but when Dany arrives in Westeros and hears about him, being "the Slayer of Lies" and remembering the cloth dragon from the HOTU, she'll declare Aegon a fake and maybe then later on a Blackfyre and then start a second Dance of Dragons against him.

Why does everyone think Dany will kill him? He's got an army, he's got Dorne, he's just conquered Stormsend, she can marry him off to a noble woman thus securing her power and I highly doubt Tyrion would let her.

Aegon's valuable to Dany. I find it a helluva lot more likely that she'll accept him before killing him, he's her only family. She's sad, lonely and foolish; she's another Cersei in the making.

I'm presuming you also think Dany will accept Jon?

And people may believe Howland, who isn't "a random cragman" he's The Lord of Greywater Watch and the Northern Lords do know him and he's known to be the only one to come from the ToJ with Ned. So people won't think he's making it all up as they know he's been to the ToJ and knows what happened there with Lyanna.

:o that makes perfect sense! Everyone will be like "Of course Howland's telling the truth he was there! Just like Roose and the Freys were telling the truth about Robb's death because they were there!"

I mean the whole story is so believable isn't it?

Why would Howland go around telling the Northern lords anyway? He should just tell Jon and let it go, Ned didn't want everyone to know about Jon's parentage, so Howland should keep his mouth shut.

And Sansa was cast aside by Robb because she had married Tyrion by then and he couldn't have her in line as the Lannsters would get it if Sansa did. Jon still may be King in the North if the Northern Lords represent him with the will before Rickon shows up, and also Rickon and Bran aren't mentioned in his will in the line of succession so it would be going against his will if they crown someone else other than the person Robb intended to be his heir, Jon.

Sansa will have the Vale behind her, Robb's will is going to be ignored if they had to choose between Lannister free, Tully mother, Lady of the Vale Sansa and Jon, Ned's bastard from the NWs who doesn't have an army

Manderly knows Rickon's alive and I think he's one of the key men in getting rid of Roose. So no, they won't present the will to him.

Even if they did Jon will reject it because he knows it doesn't belong to him. If he does then everything Cat said about him is true. I think the Blackfish has the will and if he finds out his niece's children are still alive he's not going to give Jon any will

[King of Winters]

Why does everyone think Dany will kill him? He's got an army, he's got Dorne, he's just conquered Stormsend, she can marry him off to a noble woman thus securing her power and I highly doubt Tyrion would let her.

Aegon's valuable to Dany. I find it a helluva lot more likely that she'll accept him before killing him, he's her only family. She's sad, lonely and foolish; she's another Cersei in the making.

I'm presuming you also think Dany will accept Jon?

No, God no. I don't want Dany and Jon to end up with each other. And I think you missed the bit where I said Aegon is a Blackfyre, not a Targ. Blackfyres are seen by Targs and Targ loyalists as traitors and rebels, Dany, being "The Slayer of Lies" will see he isn't a Targ and is trying to steal her throne. The Lords supporting (F)Aegon will then think that Dany is going against her nephew and just wants the throne for herself. Thus staring a Dance of Dragons.

:o that makes perfect sense! Everyone will be like "Of course Howland's telling the truth he was there! Just like Roose and the Freys were telling the truth about Robb's death because they were there!"

I mean the whole story is so believable isn't it?

Why would Howland go around telling the Northern lords anyway? He should just tell Jon and let it go, Ned didn't want everyone to know about Jon's parentage, so Howland should keep his mouth shut.

Actually if Howland was to ever reveal it to the Lords then they'd probably believe him as he's not like Roose or the Freys, he's a Stark loyalist and was a friend of Ned's. They'd believe Howland because he was there. He was there when Lyanna died and is known to have saved Ned's life at the fight at the ToJ.

And if he does tell the Lords then it would be because if people challenge his word that Jon's legitimised then Howland can reveal to them that Jon is actually already a legitimate Stark and Targ. And also there's probably something hidden in Lyanna's tomb that prove that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love. Some of the most popular theories are its Torrhen's Crown that Rhaegar gave Lyanna, a Targ wedding cloak, or even a Dragon's Egg.

Sansa will have the Vale behind her, Robb's will is going to be ignored if they had to choose between Lannister free, Tully mother, Lady of the Vale Sansa and Jon, Ned's bastard from the NWs who doesn't have an army

Manderly knows Rickon's alive and I think he's one of the key men in getting rid of Roose. So no, they won't present the will to him.

Even if they did Jon will reject it because he knows it doesn't belong to him. If he does then everything Cat said about him is true. I think the Blackfish has the will and if he finds out his niece's children are still alive he's not going to give Jon any will

Have you read the GNC? If not then please go and read it.

Sansa is cast aside because she's married to Tyrion at the time. Even if Sansa is married to Harry, by the time LF wants to use her to get The North, the Will will be revealed. And that will stop his plans to use The North through Sansa, and then Sansa will take care of him.

And the will is probably with Howland at Greywater Watch, not with Blackfish as Robb sent Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont, with the will, to the Crannogmen. And Jon might honour his brother's last wish to become his heir and not refuse his wish.

[Pikachu101]

@King of the Starks agree to disagree

I don't think Howland would go around blabbing Jon's parentage and I don't think his word is enough to convince the North.

Also as long as Sansa's alive Jon won't accept the will, he's not like that

[Ghost's Shadow]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. The next leader of the North needs to fight against Winter, so... Not going to be Sansa. Nor Rickon.

[King of Winters]

@King of the Starks agree to disagree

I don't think Howland would go around blabbing Jon's parentage and I don't think his word is enough to convince the North.

Also as long as Sansa's alive Jon won't accept the will, he's not like that

Ok.

But did I say he'd go blabbing around telling everyone? He might only tell the Northern Lords, not the entire North, or maybe only some Lords.

And Jon would still come before Sansa in the line of succession.

[Pikachu101]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. The next leader of the North needs to fight against Winter, so... Not going to be Sansa. Nor Rickon.

Rickon will give the North the Riverlands and the Vale, he's a lot more beneficial to the North than Jon. Also all he needs is a strong regent e.g. Blackfish to lead the North while he's a child

[Booknerd2]

If Wylla turns up, she might know info about:

Arthur - from her own perspective or through Ashara overhearing/obserservations,etc.

Possibly observed some interaction between Ashara and Ned.

Maybe knows exactly what happened to Ashara or pieced together her frame of mind/her situation if Ashara did indeed "disappear" or truly did off herself.

And she may will know the parentage of Jon or just that he is not Ned's.

At Starfall, she is not a "standard" servant. I would think wetnurses are so close to the infants in their charge, that of course they are more familiar with the family they work with. They are entrusted with the care of children and in some cases an heir. I would think they make sure they know the girl/woman is competent, reliable, etc.

This is someone that was at Starfall, travelled with baby Jon, and then went home to nurse Edric? She had to be truly trusted and a remarkable person to not talk. And noble Ned does use her name as the mother.

Wylla as a person was given a considerable amount of responsibilities/tasks beyond the call of duty. Ned may speak in book 1 of the burden of living with his lies, but damn, so does Wylla have them.

[Pikachu101]

@booknerd2 I was always under the impression Wylla was made up, you know how Beric's like "all Daynes are liars" or summat…

How will her and Jon meet btw? She's in Dorne and he's on the Wall

[jrmmsu88]

Did you see how all the lords flocked over to Stannis Baratheon when he sent the ravens about Cersei's bastards?

No? OMG me neither! :o

But you know I guess Howland has a lot more prestige, because he's the man everyone talks about, he's involved in the Northern conspiracy, he has a reputation that all will be like "yeah I'm going to believe you", I mean how can anyone not believe him right?

:o that makes perfect sense!

Because Howland's the only living person there then he must be telling the truth! I mean something that ridiculous (to the characters) has to be believable if Howland Reed said it!

In the medieval ages there was this idea that the higher ranking you are the more likely you're telling the truth. Howland's not ranked high enough to say something like that and get everyone to believe him.

dang sarcasm much? haha

Stannis was ignored by all the Lords because his story appeared to be a self-serving lie to give him the best claim to the throne. And let's be honest, if the readers weren't let in on the fact that the twins were getting it on then the whole revelation of "the King's kids aren't his kids, they're his wife's brother's kids and we have some really weird family dynamics" would have been a huge twist. And even in the realm everyone still gossips about the twins, the Tyrells certainly enjoy making snide comments about it

Reed is a Lord so its not like he's a drunken hedge knight stumbling in babbling nonsense. It's known he was one of the two survivors at the ToJ and Ned makes it known that he trusted Reed, inasmuch as Reed saved his life and was one of the seven companions that actually went with him. Typically eyewitnesses are considered reliable, otherwise you're assuming they're going to come out and call the man that saved Eddard Stark's life a liar.

I think if Reed is the one to break the news though there will be some other physical evidence that will enter into play. It won't just be his word they have to trust, they'll have enough evidence to put it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

This is all of course assuming he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and not Ned and Wylla's or Ned and Ashara or whoever else has been thrown into the theories.

[MidnightAurora]

I think there are a few possibilities.. Eddard hid away Jon's truth or some importance we know in the crypts as Bran and Rickon dreamt the location and Jon dreamt that something was calling to him in the crypts. I believe Howland Reed will divulge the information and could explain why he has not stepped out of his home in 15 years and why Eddard spent 15 years away from king's Landing and away from his best friend. I think Bran will confirm it through his ability to see through and travel through the weirwood/heart trees. I think Bran will see his father in the past and gather information greatly needed in the present. Many people wonder if Rhaegar really loved Lyanna or just needed to fulfill a prophecy. I am also reading up on the books and getting to know different swords especially the greatswords past and present. The Greatsword Dawn the one Eddard delivered back to Dorne could be importance hence was a previous commentator mentioned: Battle for the Dawn.

I think something in Lyanna's crown and the crown for Kof Winter will also play a part.

After reading ACOK I think there may be some truth to Bael the Bard's story about how he deflowered and fathered a son off a Satrk daughter per the story they hid in the depths of the Crypts where Rickon and Bran hid and no one was able to find them.

[Pikachu101]

@jrmmsu88 Howland means nothing to Jon, why would he believe him?

Also why would Howland go around blabbing to all the lords? It doesn't matter about his reliability because at the end of the day Howland should respect Ned's wishes and keep shut. As long as Jon (somehow) believes him, it doesn't matter if no one else does

[MidnightAurora]

I never considered Benjen would have the knowledge as it appears Eddard never told anyone, but may have confided in the old Gods and Howland since he was there with Eddard when he found Lyanna. Maybe Benjen did not know about Jon as I do not think Eddard told him, but he could have known soemthing about Lyanna as he was in Winterfell at the time of her "kidnapping" I think while Eddard was in the Vale and Brandon heading to Riverrun. Benjen is smart and could have known something else as well and could have figured 2 and 2 out with Jon. I think his role is more important in the North and watch as he buried the stuff Ghost found. It has been proven at least in the 1st 2 books the direwolves can track the scent of a Stark on anything and each of the wolves have their own special traits just like the children they are bonded to.