The Great Northern Conspiracy REALISTICALLY/and GRRM comments?

[Winterfell's ghost]

There's so many interesting things that have been said in that thread, here's my personnal take on it all:

Roose: He's definitely a bright man. As any man in the north, he needs a heir for the Dreadfort. For the moment, the only one he has is... Ramsay. He knows he's stupid, imprevisible and sick, stated it differently in a few occasions, is trying to teach him the best as he can but inside, he knows that it's pretty much a lost cause. BUT his only heir for the moment.

However, Walda is pregnant and according to the book (or what I did understand of it), not that far from giving birth. That means another Bolton and moreover, with blood from another powerful family. I think that for the moment, for the legacy of his future, he has to help Ramsay and cope with his stupidity (like the massacre at Winterfell) but as soon as Walda give birth (especially if it is a boy), he could decide to either kill Ramsay or hand him over to Stannis for what he did to Winterfell, stating that he didn't know at the time. Something along these lines.

Stannis: I think that Stannis is a hardcore "by the book" person. Would he find out about Jon Snow being the legitimate heir to the Throne, he would abandon his claim to the Throne on the spot and serve his King as best as he can, like he always did. He wouldn't be too upset, perhaps disappointed but honor and duty would take over and he would do what he has to do. He only wanted the throne because he and Arryn did discover that Tommen, Myrcela and Jeffieboy weren't Robert's kids and that in that respect, that makes of him the one to sit on the Throne via "legitimate" way. I think that even more so as he seems to be impressed by the way Jon did handle things overall, even though he would have wanted to take back the seat at Winterfell but for the moment (assuming that J = L+R), he doesn't know Jon's lineage and the pretentions he can carry.

Jon: I kind of think that he will leave the wall... simply because at some point, there just might be no more wall or that the duty on the wall will have no more reason to be (assuming that there are chances that the others will be defeated forever) and will rule the Iron Throne with Danerys (my take is that Aegon dies in his assault over Storme nd, crushing Varys and the Cheesemonger's plans), which will only leave Jon as a Targ's man for the task.

[aFeastForDragons]

I've avoided reading this for a long time but I caved tonight. Makes so much sense and definitely one of the best theories people have come up with.

One big problem to mess everything up now is the Bastard letter which in typical GRRM fashion has just f'ed everything up.

[MaesterSamwell]

I've avoided reading this for a long time but I caved tonight. Makes so much sense and definitely one of the best theories people have come up with.

One big problem to mess everything up now is the Bastard letter which in typical GRRM fashion has just f'ed everything up.

I disagree that the bastard letter messes the GNC up. The theory is that leave Jon out until the last minute (when it is time for him to become king in the North), prove himself to be a good person for the job, and take out the Boltons/Freys. In my mind it is either Lady Dustin or Manderlay that wrote the bastard letter (personally leaning to lady Dustin). What better reason and timing for Jon to leave the wall and become the King of the North? The defeat at Winterfell of Roose, Ramsey, and the Freys. What a perfect time for Jon to come down off the wall. Lady Dustin and Manderlay both know all the facts (other than Arya is not real, like Theon is called Reek, his skin is flayed, Stannis is ready to pounce, access to pink sealing wax, but not necessarily the House seal of Bolton) It makes sense that they would call Jon down (again making him prove his worthiness like the Flints at the wall) and after they defeat them all, they could easily show him Robb's will and pledge allegiance. This theory has helped me with the bastard letter. Before that it confused me (Ramsey wouldn't want Jon coming and disproving his bribe is not Arya, Other candidates Mance - unlikely he knows all the crazier details or Asha - how does she know how significant Jon Snow has become).

[Red Raven]

Do I think all the houses of the north are working together? No, but it seems plausible that several are working together towards this GNC.

All of the players may not have direct communication with each other, but I think at the very least:

Houses A, B, and C are conspiring together. House C whispers with House D. D is conspiring with E and F...and so on. A and F may not know of each other's involvement but they are, in a sense, working together to get a Stark back in Winterfell.

I agree completely with the notion that Roose is to smart and cunning to be trapped at Winterfell. There is no doubt in my mind that he has setup Ramsay to take the fall while he retreats to the Dreadfort.

Roose and the Freys did what they did under the protection of Tywin. I don't think Roose imagined that he'd lose his protector to a bolt in the groin. Tywin is dead, the Lannisters are falling apart and Roose is now flying without a net.

I do agree that if things go south Roose has tried to set up Ramsay to be the fall guy, but I don't see the other houses falling for it. They know Roose was behind the Red Wedding and they're going to go after him. I think it's dawning on him too.

[binga]

There's so many interesting things that have been said in that thread, here's my personnal take on it all:

Roose: He's definitely a bright man. As any man in the north, he needs a heir for the Dreadfort. For the moment, the only one he has is... Ramsay. He knows he's stupid, imprevisible and sick, stated it differently in a few occasions, is trying to teach him the best as he can but inside, he knows that it's pretty much a lost cause. BUT his only heir for the moment.

However, Walda is pregnant and according to the book (or what I did understand of it), not that far from giving birth. That means another Bolton and moreover, with blood from another powerful family. I think that for the moment, for the legacy of his future, he has to help Ramsay and cope with his stupidity (like the massacre at Winterfell) but as soon as Walda give birth (especially if it is a boy), he could decide to either kill Ramsay or hand him over to Stannis for what he did to Winterfell, stating that he didn't know at the time. Something along these lines.

Stannis: I think that Stannis is a hardcore "by the book" person. Would he find out about Jon Snow being the legitimate heir to the Throne, he would abandon his claim to the Throne on the spot and serve his King as best as he can, like he always did. He wouldn't be too upset, perhaps disappointed but honor and duty would take over and he would do what he has to do. He only wanted the throne because he and Arryn did discover that Tommen, Myrcela and Jeffieboy weren't Robert's kids and that in that respect, that makes of him the one to sit on the Throne via "legitimate" way. I think that even more so as he seems to be impressed by the way Jon did handle things overall, even though he would have wanted to take back the seat at Winterfell but for the moment (assuming that J = L+R), he doesn't know Jon's lineage and the pretentions he can carry.

Jon: I kind of think that he will leave the wall... simply because at some point, there just might be no more wall or that the duty on the wall will have no more reason to be (assuming that there are chances that the others will be defeated forever) and will rule the Iron Throne with Danerys (my take is that Aegon dies in his assault over Storme nd, crushing Varys and the Cheesemonger's plans), which will only leave Jon as a Targ's man for the task.

No, Stannis is a law and order guy but at the same time he clearly wants to be king from the perspective of personal ambition. Regardless the throne is his by right, he already made the decision when he rebelled against Aerys. He chose his Baratheon blood over his duty to Aerys and a new line of succession has been set up. Very little of this Northern conspiracy stuff sounds real to me. It borders on fan fiction, George would have to work very hard to make it feel right and natural.

[Anima]

The Great Northern Conspiracy is very unlikely. All the supposed high lords members where long time friends and honorable men who would not have turned against the king in most circumstances. It is much more likely they met as just friends and not as conspirators and that Aerys being mad misinterpreted just as you are doing I think.

Careful there, you just might start burning people for "conspiring" against you guys...

[Theostru]

The problem with something like the Great Northern Conspiracy is that it's just believable enough to hook me in. And now, if it doesn't come to pass, I'll be crushed. Yes, it's possible something even more awesome could happen instead, but that doesn't really seem to fit with GRRM's style...

[Lord Varys]

It makes no matter whose legal heir Jon may be, he took an oath when he joined the Night's Watch. I don't see him pursuing a crown or the Iron Throne while he still wears the black. Nor can I see any Northern noble house backing him if he turns out to be a turncloak. If GRRM wanted Jon to become a political power beyond the Night's Watch he would have skipped his assassination by the hands of Bowen Marsh and allowed him to march south to Winterfell at the head of an army.

By the time Jon recovers or is resurrected the political situation will have changed dramatically, I think. His heritage won't matter in the political field until the very end. His Targaryen blood may become important in the coming battle against the Others, but not as a political factor.

[Macho Hand of the King]

No, Stannis is a law and order guy but at the same time he clearly wants to be king from the perspective of personal ambition. Regardless the throne is his by right, he already made the decision when he rebelled against Aerys. He chose his Baratheon blood over his duty to Aerys and a new line of succession has been set up. Very little of this Northern conspiracy stuff sounds real to me. It borders on fan fiction, George would have to work very hard to make it feel right and natural.

This. Stannis didn't give a frog's fart when Viserys and then Daenerys were the rightful heirs, why will Jon be any different? Stannis is operating under the notion of "my brother rightfully overthrew the king, and now I am the rightful heir to the throne". As we've seen throughout the story "right" has so far failed to ever trump "might".

[aFeastForDragons]

I disagree that the bastard letter messes the GNC up. The theory is that leave Jon out until the last minute (when it is time for him to become king in the North), prove himself to be a good person for the job, and take out the Boltons/Freys. In my mind it is either Lady Dustin or Manderlay that wrote the bastard letter (personally leaning to lady Dustin). What better reason and timing for Jon to leave the wall and become the King of the North? The defeat at Winterfell of Roose, Ramsey, and the Freys. What a perfect time for Jon to come down off the wall. Lady Dustin and Manderlay both know all the facts (other than Arya is not real, like Theon is called Reek, his skin is flayed, Stannis is ready to pounce, access to pink sealing wax, but not necessarily the House seal of Bolton) It makes sense that they would call Jon down (again making him prove his worthiness like the Flints at the wall) and after they defeat them all, they could easily show him Robb's will and pledge allegiance. This theory has helped me with the bastard letter. Before that it confused me (Ramsey wouldn't want Jon coming and disproving his bribe is not Arya, Other candidates Mance - unlikely he knows all the crazier details or Asha - how does she know how significant Jon Snow has become).

Interesting, I was wondering how the letter would tie in with the Northern Conspiracy.

[Arkash]

Okay, so finally got a hold of the entire Great Northern Conspiracy, thanks to the thread and its link...

I dont have immediate thoughts about it but I'm glad I finally read about all the theories and implications !

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

I enjoyed reading the theory too.

All of the pieces seem to slot neatly in to place, as long as you use a big hammer to stretch some of them into the right shape.

As for Roose and Ramsey

Ramsey is lord of Winterfell right, his heir would be his unborn sibling, Roose's child. There is only one thing we have seen that will convince the others to leave ones house untouched. Could Ramsey be headed for the same fate as Craster's sons?

This would leave a bolton as heir to Winterfell and the dreadfort

[Lord Varys]

It's obvious that Ramsay is supposed to father the heir to Winterfell on 'Arya Stark'. The Bolton lines would be split in two branches if things went as Roose intends them to go. Winterfell would go to Ramsay's child, and the Dreadfort to Roose's children by Lady Walda. Ramsay's use will be at an end as soon as Roose has one or a bunch of healthy 'Stark grandchildren'.

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

That still wouldn't stop him being fed to the others as a protection charm for the rest of Bolton

[Andrés Garcia]

It'll be terrifying and awesome when the cold of the Others finally creeps south beyond the wall and the old King's of Winter all rise from their graves in the crypt to join the Battle for Winterfell. A Time for Wolves, indeed.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

THIS, THIS. THIIIIIIIIS.

Dammit I do disagree with you often Visenya but you hit the nail on the head this time! It is so illogical for Jon to become anything now but in the shittiest fairy tale cop out ending imaginable.

I never thought Jon's patronage and to a lesser extent this supposed conspiracy is a means of putting Jon on the iron throne. I think these things will be used in a way to help Jon unite the North against the others with most likely the eventual help from Danny when things get very dire. Maybe as the North unites around Jon the Boltons espace Winterfell and Ramsay becomes Night's King--Jon's ultimate nemesis. Jon will most likely die in the end and Danny will sit the iron throne. I would love an ending like this and don't think it's a copout at all.

And my pipe dream wish of Arya becoming a member of the queens-guard will be my happy ending.

[aryagonnakill]

That still wouldn't stop him being fed to the others as a protection charm for the rest of Bolton

The others feed the wights with the blood of babies, giving them Ramsay isn't the same.

[sabrecmc]

I read this claim a lot that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married. But who would marry them though? :dunno:

Perhaps a random traveling septon who shows up for no apparent reason in the books? I still say that guy made no sense in the story unless he is connected to Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Back to the topic, I love the GNC Theory, but agree that if it is going on, it is most likely more about taking out the Freys and putting a Stark back in Winterfell than bringing Jon to glory. I still have this mental image of Ned's bones in a box marked "Lady Dustin's Dog Treats," all ready to be put in the Winterfell crypts. Lady Dustin doth protest too much!

[Red Raven]

I agree. They want a Stark at Winterfell, Jon is just one of the many lines they're throwing out. They did try to rescue "Arya," Manderly dispatched Davos to find Rickon, and the Liddles know Bran is still alive. They're using the shotgun approach to find all of the Starks they can.

Lady Dustin doth protest too much!

Digging around in the SSM section, I found this:

I asume that important families like the Starks would keep in touch with their greatuncle and greatuncle's grandkids; cousin and 2nd cousin and 3rd cousin and so forth. So there would be a lot more Starks around than just the 7 we saw (like the Freys or Lannisters).

There are probably some descendants of offshoot branches from the family tree floating around the north, most likely in White Harbor and Barrowton.

http://www.westeros....ategory/C91/P15

I think she doth protest too much indeed.

[vivatforx]

I am thankful this thread exists. Being anti-GNC on their threads is no fun.

I believe a few independent groups are converging on Winterfell. Things are intersecting, but is there a conspiracy? I don't think there is.

The GNC as described would be very difficult to carry out due to distances involved, and the amount of people who would have to know. Someone would talk.

I also don't believe the Northern Lords would for sure back Jon over Rickon. They could, but I just don't see it. I don't see him trying to jump over Rickon either. Even with Robb's will, which was written under exceedingly false pretenses.

I also think Lady Dustin is loyal to Roose. I know she hates Ramsay and the Freys, but I think she is in for Roose all the way. I read those chapters twice, the second time after reading a ton of northern threads on these boards, and I am more sure than ever that she will not betray Roose. But, I've been wrong before.

I actually think the Pink Letter is the most conspiratorial thing happening in the North. I don't buy for a second that Ramsay wrote it, especially after the WoW northern preview chapter. The parallel structure between the letter and one of the lines in that chapter seems like a giant wink from GRRM. So if Ramsay didn't, some other people must have conspired to create it.