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The Great Northern Conspiracy REALISTICALLY/and GRRM comments?


drayrock

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We assume Howland Reed is the only one who knows Jon's true identity because Ned thought about him when he flashed back to seeing his sister before she died. We don't know for sure who else was there. We don't know what Ned told the Daynes when he took Dawn back to Starfall. I guess something along the lines of 'hey guys, sorry to tell you but Arthurs dead, I killed him as he wouldn't give me Lyanna back. Where's she? Oh she's dead as well. What's that? Well I don't want to talk about how she died but anyway I brought back Dawn oh and I took my new bastard with me for the visit, anyone got spare milk?' I think more than Reed know about Jon's identity, which will be very important when GRRM is deciding how to reveal. In other words it's highly likely we'll get a more detailed explanation of what happened at theToJ.

We assume Howland Reed is the only one who knows the truth, because Howland Reed was the only other person there. Ned, a pretty smart guy by the way, dreamed of the event as it happened. No servants, no midwife.

Why in the Seven Hells would he tell the Daynes about his sister, Rhaegar, and their baby. It makes no sense to the narrative or otherwise. Think about your posts before you make them. Ned's only objective in Dorne was to return Dawn, tell Lady Ashara the details of Brandon's fate, and create a cover story for Jon's birth.

If Jon came out looking like a Stark, fine, but he needed Wylla as a scapegoat. If Jon had gotten Targaryen looks, Lady Ashara made perfect sense, as the Daynes are known to have Targaryen like features.

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We assume Howland Reed is the only one who knows the truth, because Howland Reed was the only other person there. Ned, a pretty smart guy by the way, dreamed of the event as it happened. No servants, no midwife.

Why in the Seven Hells would he tell the Daynes about his sister, Rhaegar, and their baby. It makes no sense to the narrative or otherwise. Think about your posts before you make them. Ned's only objective in Dorne was to return Dawn, tell Lady Ashara the details of Brandon's fate, and create a cover story for Jon's birth.

If Jone came out looking like a Stark, fine, but he needed Wylla as a scapegoat. If Jon had gotten Targaryen looks, Lady Ashara made perfect sense, as the Daynes are known to have Targaryen like features.

With a very young baby, the biggest clue in my opinion is the eyes and even then it's not certain. Hair with babies varies, possible Jon born with a shock of hair, equally possible that he wasn't.

Whatever baby Jon looked like, Ned is still taking a guess and gamble that he looks enough like a stark.

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With a very young baby, the biggest clue in my opinion is the eyes and even then it's not certain. Hair with babies varies, possible Jon born with a shock of hair, equally possible that he wasn't.

Whatever baby Jon looked like, Ned is still taking a guess and gamble that he looks enough like a stark.

Jon was born with the grey eyes of the Starks. However, as you stated, the hair was likely still a roll of the dice. What if Jon started to grow sliver-gold or platinum streaks in his hair?

Ned needed a sure fire way to remove any suspicion from Lyanna and Rhaegar no matter how Jon turned out feature wise. Going to Starfall allowed him to kill several birds with one stone.

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Silly? Once again, you write as if you know the story, which you do not. Why keep it so secret? Oh....let me see...the prince of the realm has eloped with the betrothed daughter of one the greatest lords in all of the realm, shaming his wife, her family and all of Dorne. Not mention backstabbing his cousin, whom was also one of the greatest lords in all the realm. Time and secrecy were of the essence.

The lack of a midwife may also explain Lyanna's death to some degree. Ser Arthur Dayne or Oswell Whent seeing to the birth and not being familiar with the proper procedures of the day could have aided in her demise. By the time Ned reached her, it is likely she had just given birth within a few hours of his arrival. All of the blood being the result of a harried and rushed pregnancy. If Lyanna was being tended by servants and a midwife its highly unlikely they would have left her lying in a bed soaked with her own blood. And I don't see Ned Stark silencing small folk.

But the very idea of all of this is just silly. You obviously know the story. GRRM leaving Ned and Howland Reed as the lone survivors is just an accident.

I asked why he would keep it so secret that he wouldn't even risk a midwife or Maester? Childbirth in medieval times was incredibly dangerous with enormous risk of mortality. But you want us to believe that Rhaegar, after all he'd been through and risked to make a baby who he thought was the PtwP, would just leave Lyanna to her own devices just in case folks started gossiping? Really? was Rhaegar that big of an asshole then?

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I asked why he would keep it so secret that he wouldn't even risk a midwife or Maester? Childbirth in medieval times was incredibly dangerous with enormous risk of mortality. But you want us to believe that Rhaegar, after all he'd been through and risked to make a baby who he thought was the PtwP, would just leave Lyanna to her own devices just in case folks started gossiping? Really? was Rhaegar that big of an asshole then?

1. You have your argument wrong. Rhaegar always thought his first son, Aegon, was the "Prince Who was Promised." Maester Aemon, while he was dying, recalled that he corresponded with Rhaegar on the subject and that Rhaegar erroneously believed Aegon to be the hero of legend.

Additionally, remember Dany's dream of Rhaegar, Ellia, and baby Aegon in the House of the Undying. Rhaegar said his (Aegon) is the song of ice and fire. He also says that the dragon (Aegon I and his sisters) has three heads, so there must be one more. Rhaegar desperately wanted another child because he felt he needed a third to complete the prophecy.

Why he initially took Lyanna remains a mystery, as he could have made a child with any lady. My own guess is true love.

2. I don't know the exact details of the ToJ. Only GRRM knows for sure what took place. What I do know is that no one, and I mean no one, could find Lyanna or the missing KG until after the war was over.

What I do know is that the secret was so important to Ned that he let everyone believe he forgot his honor and shamed his wife. A secret that is so important that he would not just leave some alleged midwife or some alleged servants to their own devices.

Perhaps Rhaegar planned to be done with the war before the child's birth. Perhaps Jon was born a bit prematurely, hence all of the blood and Lyanna's death.

What I know most of all is that GRRM left us with Ned and Howland Reed as the only witnesses as to what happened on that ill fated day.

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1. You have your argument wrong. Rhaegar always thought his first son, Aegon, was the "Prince Who was Promised." Maester Aemon, while he was dying, recalled that he corresponded with Rhaegar on the subject and that Rhaegar erroneously believed Aegon to be the hero of legend.

Additionally, remember Dany's dream of Rhaegar, Ellia, and baby Aegon in the House of the Undying. Rhaegar said his (Aegon) is the song of ice and fire. He also says the the dragon (Aegon I and his sisters) has three heads, so there must be one more. Rhaegar desperately wanted another child because he felt he needed a third to complete the prophecy.

Why he initially took Lyanna remains a mystery, as he could have made a child with any lady. My own guess is true love.

2. I don't know the exact details of the ToJ. Only GRRM knows for sure what took place. What I do know is that no one, and I mean no one, could find Lyanna or the missing KG until after the war was over.

What I do know is that the secret was so important to Ned that he let everyone believe he forgot his honor and shamed his wife. A secret that is so important that he would not just leave some alleged midwife or some alleged servants to their own devices.

Perhaps Rhaegar planned to be done with the war before the child's birth. Perhaps Jon was born a bit prematurely, hence all of the blood and Lyanna's death.

What I know most of all is that GRRM left us with Ned and Howland Reed as the only witnesses as to what happened on that ill fated day.

It's possible that Reed is the only surviving witness, but it's likely not. Rhaegar could have left Lyanna to the care of Arthur Dayne (all round badass and part time midwife) because he was worried that people might have found out he knocked up the Stark girl, but that would have been a dick move, and from what we know of him he wasn't that. So I'm speculating that there might be at least one other witness we don't know about, which may or may not be important to Jon's story arc.

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It's possible that Reed is the only surviving witness, but it's likely not. Rhaegar could have left Lyanna to the care of Arthur Dayne (all round badass and part time midwife) because he was worried that people might have found out he knocked up the Stark girl, but that would have been a dick move, and from what we know of him he wasn't that. So I'm speculating that there might be at least one other witness we don't know about, which may or may not be important to Jon's story arc.

Well Dayne is one of my key points:

1. He was Rhaegar's very best friend our of so many who loved him. Remember, even Barristan was jealous of how much Rhaegar trusted Ser Arthur.

2. Dayne had all kinds of skill beyond his martial genius. He took down the King's Wood Brotherhood with diplomacy before he used force. He may have had some crude knowledge of child birthing.

3. We don't know how far Lyanna was along. Jon may have come much too soon, which caused Lyanna to have a difficult birth and lead to the excess bleeding. Ser Arthur may have done the best that he possibly could given a bad situation.

4. Rhaegar likely went back north expecting to return in time for any birth. Of course he could not have known how his father would botch things so badly.

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I don't think we can say for sure if Rhaegar still thought Aegon was tPtwP or not. If he was truly expecting a girl from Lyanna, probably, but maybe he figured out that to be 'the song of ice and fire' you should be born to ice and fire. (*clout to the head*) We at the least know that Rhaegar changed his mind a time or two before, so it's possible he did so again.

The vision from the HotU is something that can put Daenerys on the wrong track. It still doesn't mean Rhaegar was right, or that he didn't change his mind. I'm curious to see what Dany will do with it, having seen that and been warned about a 'fake' dragon.

Aemon is yet another one who's possibly on the wrong track because he just doesn't have all the information. Rhaegar probably didn't communicate with Aemon until right before his death. He just got himself a son and thought he was therefore obviously the One, and Aemon ran with it. If there's no second son to write about, you can't really guess it's going to be him. And Aemon changed his mind to Dany later on because she was alive and the only one left of the bloodline (her having done things that might coincide with the prophecy really isn't that important, as she could have done them later, too, and still fit the thing.)

As for the ToJ, it makes sense to me that the 'they found him' refers to at least Howland and a wetnurse. Lyanna was sick, had been for some days, so nursing probably wasn't her task at that point, and the baby had to live. Also, that Tower must have not been exactly clean, and the KG were probably not going to play maid and cook, so it's likely there was a person or two (Maester as the birth grew nearer?) there to keep things clean. Bachelors aren't the best at housekeeping. :lol: Starfall is the perfect place to get that help from, as Arthur Dayne was present, and he'd know a few chosen ones could be trusted. We at the very least know that there's a wetnurse named Wylla at Starfall who's claiming to be Jon's mother (to keep the cover story alive?)

I would love to read a small AU scene were Rhaegar did return to the ToJ and asked to be shown his daughter... :lol: At least a head scratch with a :shocked: face right there, ending on :dunno: .

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I don't think we can say for sure if Rhaegar still thought Aegon was tPtwP or not. If he was truly expecting a girl from Lyanna, probably, but maybe he figured out that to be 'the song of ice and fire' you should be born to ice and fire. (*clout to the head*) We at the least know that Rhaegar changed his mind a time or two before, so it's possible he did so again.

The vision from the HotU is something that can put Daenerys on the wrong track. It still doesn't mean Rhaegar was right, or that he didn't change his mind. I'm curious to see what Dany will do with it, having seen that and been warned about a 'fake' dragon.

Aemon is yet another one who's possibly on the wrong track because he just doesn't have all the information. Rhaegar probably didn't communicate with Aemon until right before his death. He just got himself a son and thought he was therefore obviously the One, and Aemon ran with it. If there's no second son to write about, you can't really guess it's going to be him. And Aemon changed his mind to Dany later on because she was alive and the only one left of the bloodline (her having done things that might coincide with the prophecy really isn't that important, as she could have done them later, too, and still fit the thing.)

As for the ToJ, it makes sense to me that the 'they found him' refers to at least Howland and a wetnurse. Lyanna was sick, had been for some days, so nursing probably wasn't her task at that point, and the baby had to live. Also, that Tower must have not been exactly clean, and the KG were probably not going to play maid and cook, so it's likely there was a person or two (Maester as the birth grew nearer?) there to keep things clean. Bachelors aren't the best at housekeeping. :lol: Starfall is the perfect place to get that help from, as Arthur Dayne was present, and he'd know a few chosen ones could be trusted. We at the very least know that there's a wetnurse named Wylla at Starfall who's claiming to be Jon's mother (to keep the cover story alive?)

I would love to read a small AU scene were Rhaegar did return to the ToJ and asked to be shown his daughter... :lol: At least a head scratch with a :shocked: face right there, ending on :dunno: .

1. What makes you think Rhaegar was expecting a girl from Lyanna? All that concerned him was that the dragon had three heads, and a son or a daughter would fit the bill perfectly.

2. Dany's dream in the HOTU and Maester Aemon's dying words make it clear that Rhaegar thought (wrongly) that Aegon was the prince of legend.

Aemon was one of the oldest and wisest men in the Seven Kingdoms, even during Rhaegar's time (in addition to being a family member). He likely forgot more than most men would ever know. Additionally, Rhaegar was so bookish that men joked about him. It would only make sense that he conversed with Aemon frequently, and on a number of subjects.

The people in Dany's vision are clearly Rhaegar, Elia, and baby Aegon.

3. Wylla never claimed to be the mother of Jon Snow as far as we know. Ned gave her name to Robert when he asked about Jon, and he would not go into any detail. She was the wetnurse to Edric Dayne, who claims that Wylla was Jon's mother and that the two of them were milk brothers.

There is a huge problem with this, as Jon is four years older than Edric. There is no way that they could have been milk brothers, meaning Edric got the story second hand.

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1. What makes you think Rhaegar was expecting a girl from Lyanna? All that concerned him was that the dragon had three heads, and a son or a daughter would fit the bill perfectly.

2. Dany's dream in the HOTU and Maester Aemon's dying words make it clear that Rhaegar thought (wrongly) that Aegon was the prince of legend.

Aemon was one of the oldest and wisest men in the Seven Kingdoms, even during Rhaegar's time (in addition to being a family member). He likely forgot more than most men would ever know. Additionally, Rhaegar was so bookish that men joked about him. It would only make sense that he conversed with Aemon frequently, and on a number of subjects.

The people in Dany's vision are clearly Rhaegar, Elia, and baby Aegon.

3. Wylla never claimed to be the mother of Jon Snow as far as we know. Ned gave her name to Robert when he asked about Jon, and he would not go into any detail. She was the wetnurse to Edric Dayne, who claims that Wylla was Jon's mother and that the two of them were milk brothers.

There is a huge problem with this, as Jon is four years older than Edric. There is no way that they could have been milk brothers, meaning Edric got the story second hand.

The problem with your theory is that we need to believe that Rhaegar would leave his heavily pregnant wife/mistress to give birth with only the tender ministrations of three male soldiers to get her through. Was he really that concerned with keeping things secret that he wouldn't even bother to order a midwife from Starfall? And if either Rhaeghar or Ser Arthur did order servants from Starfall then more than Reed know about Jon, which I'm thinking will come up in the next two novels.

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The problem with your theory is that we need to believe that Rhaegar would leave his heavily pregnant wife/mistress to give birth with only the tender ministrations of three male soldiers to get her through. Was he really that concerned with keeping things secret that he wouldn't even bother to order a midwife from Starfall? And if either Rhaeghar or Ser Arthur did order servants from Starfall then more than Reed know about Jon, which I'm thinking will come up in the next two novels.

There are several problems with your theory:

1. We don't know how far along Lyanna was when Rhaegar rode back north. From the looks of things, Rhaegar likely did not know how bad things had gotten in his absence, and had expected to be back in plenty of time for his child's birth/

2. You don't seem to appreciate the seriousness of the situation for some reason. Lyanna was locked into a sacred pact with Robert Baratheon, one of the most powerful lords and greatest warriors in the Seven Kingdoms. She was the daughter of Rickard Stark, one of the most powerful lords in the Seven Kingdoms. She was the sister of Brandon Stark, heir to Winterfell, master swordsman, and noted hot head. Rhaegar was married to the sister of the Prince of Dorne. Doran and Oberyn Martell were likely more than just a little upset at the news of Lyanna's abduction.

The potential for an explosive rebellion against house Targaryen was great. Despite Rhaegar's efforts at secrecy, this is exactly what happened.

3. Your obsession with Stargall makes no sense. The realm was on full alert for the whereabouts of Prince Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the three missing KG. The ToJ is located in the Prince's Pass, amongst the Red Mountains of Dorne. The Pass is governed by House Fowler. To reach Starfall one must escape detection from Houses Fowler of Shy Reach, Manwoody of King's Grave, and Blackmont of Blackmont.

In addition to the aforementioned houses and their troops, servants, smallfolk, spies, etc., any mission to Starfall must escape the detection of House Martell (the overlords of the country) and its network of spies. This is not to mention Varys and the Crown's network of spies. Its just not likely.

4. We don't know the skills of the three KG beyond their martial prowess. Dayne, Whent, or Hightower may have picked up rudimentary childbearing skills during their many travels. Especially Danye, who more than likely had saved many a maiden during his legendary career.

5. Most importantly, you are rewriting the author's narrative. The introduction of additional characters/witnesses at the ToJ is a complete rewrite of GRRM's tale and what he want's his readers to expect.

To sum up, I don't want you or any other poster to believe anything. I'm just laying out an argument based upon the facts and information that I have been given by the author, by the actual text of the books, and by author approved information boards.

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There are several problems with your theory:

1. We don't know how far along Lyanna was when Rhaegar rode back north. From the looks of things, Rhaegar likely did not know how bad things had gotten in his absence, and had expected to be back in plenty of time for his child's birth/

2. You don't seem to appreciate the seriousness of the situation for some reason. Lyanna was locked into a sacred pact with Robert Baratheon, one of the most powerful lords and greatest warriors in the Seven Kingdoms. She was the daughter of Rickard Stark, one of the most powerful lords in the Seven Kingdoms. She was the sister of Brandon Stark, heir to Winterfell, master swordsman, and noted hot head. Rhaegar was married to the sister of the Prince of Dorne. Doran and Oberyn Martell were likely more than just a little upset at the news of Lyanna's abduction.

The potential for an explosive rebellion against house Targaryen was great. Despite Rhaegar's efforts at secrecy, this is exactly what happened.

3. Your obsession with Stargall makes no sense. The realm was on full alert for the whereabouts of Prince Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the three missing KG. The ToJ is located in the Prince's Pass, amongst the Red Mountains of Dorne. The Pass is governed by House Fowler. To reach Starfall one must escape detection from Houses Fowler of Shy Reach, Manwoody of King's Grave, and Blackmont of Blackmont.

In addition to the aforementioned houses and their troops, servants, smallfolk, spies, etc., any mission to Starfall must escape the detection of House Martell (the overlords of the country) and its network of spies. This is not to mention Varys and the Crown's network of spies. Its just not likely.

4. We don't know the skills of the three KG beyond their martial prowess. Dayne, Whent, or Hightower may have picked up rudimentary childbearing skills during their many travels. Especially Danye, who more than likely had saved many a maiden during his legendary career.

5. Most importantly, you are rewriting the author's narrative. The introduction of additional characters/witnesses at the ToJ is a complete rewrite of GRRM's tale and what he want's his readers to expect.

To sum up, I don't want you or any other poster to believe anything. I'm just laying out an argument based upon the facts and information that I have been given by the author, by the actual text of the books, and by author approved information boards.

1) Rhaegar was going off to war, he was also, by all accounts, a decent, highly intelligent and honorable person. The idea that he would not provide even the most basic of pre natal care to the woman he loved goes against everything we've been told about the character.

2) I appreciate that Rhaeghar would want to keep Lyanna's location secret, I also appreciate that Arthur Dayne was his closest and most loyal friend and ally. Thinking that he would call for a couple of trusted servants from Starfall to tend to Lyanna during her pregnancy would not be high risk.

3) I'm not 'obsessed' by Starfall. I think it's important as it's the home of House Dayne and the first place Ned goes after the events in the ToJ to return Dawn and presumably to look for a milk mother for Jon. How did he explain rocking up with a newborn after killing Ser Arthur? How did that conversation go down?

4) the 3 KG were noblemen of high rank. They would have spent almost their entire lives training in arms etc. Your assertion that Ser Arthur, and I'm not sure why you choose to single him out, was also a midwife is frankly laughable. Not being rude but the greatest sword who ever lived as a Nurse for hire? Really? where in the text is this ever suggested, let lane stated as fact??

5) GRRMs narrative involves Ned remembering in flashback. Clearly Martin chooses not to divulge everything that Ned knows about those events, specifically that a baby was born to Lyanna and the identity of said child. He has chosen to not reveal these facts to the reader for purposes of later dramatic reveal. Given this I think it entirely reasonable to assume that he could hold back on other information, specifically who exactly was present at the birth or had knowledge of it. We know for a fact that Howland Reed was there, we do not know he was the ONLY one there.

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One last thing, and all parents will know what i'm talking about. When Ned left the ToJ, according to Stallion he would have had a badly injured Howland Reed and a newborn baby. So Ned would have had to both look after Reed AND provide milk for Jon. Ned had many talents, honorable and just man, pretty good with a sword, but the ability to lactate? Um not so much. Newborns need feeding every three hours and constant round the clock care? How did Ned manage all that before he got to Starfall?

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The ToJ scene is another of case if GRRM using an unreliable narrator. The reader is looking through the scene in a haze. Details are not clear. However, some of this stuff (like the wet-nurse) GRRM just didn't even think about. It's not the first time he has drop the ball on details.

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1) Rhaegar was going off to war, he was also, by all accounts, a decent, highly intelligent and honorable person. The idea that he would not provide even the most basic of pre natal care to the woman he loved goes against everything we've been told about the character.

2) I appreciate that Rhaeghar would want to keep Lyanna's location secret, I also appreciate that Arthur Dayne was his closest and most loyal friend and ally. Thinking that he would call for a couple of trusted servants from Starfall to tend to Lyanna during her pregnancy would not be high risk.

3) I'm not 'obsessed' by Starfall. I think it's important as it's the home of House Dayne and the first place Ned goes after the events in the ToJ to return Dawn and presumably to look for a milk mother for Jon. How did he explain rocking up with a newborn after killing Ser Arthur? How did that conversation go down?

4) the 3 KG were noblemen of high rank. They would have spent almost their entire lives training in arms etc. Your assertion that Ser Arthur, and I'm not sure why you choose to single him out, was also a midwife is frankly laughable. Not being rude but the greatest sword who ever lived as a Nurse for hire? Really? where in the text is this ever suggested, let lane stated as fact??

5) GRRMs narrative involves Ned remembering in flashback. Clearly Martin chooses not to divulge everything that Ned knows about those events, specifically that a baby was born to Lyanna and the identity of said child. He has chosen to not reveal these facts to the reader for purposes of later dramatic reveal. Given this I think it entirely reasonable to assume that he could hold back on other information, specifically who exactly was present at the birth or had knowledge of it. We know for a fact that Howland Reed was there, we do not know he was the ONLY one there.

1. I think I have addressed this adequately, given what the author has given us. In the author's narrative, the occupants of the ToJ consisted of Lyanna, Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent. The author has set up his narrative so that Ned and Howland Reed are the only ones that know of the pregnancy of Lyanna, and the birth of Jon.

Additionally, Rhaegar likely did not know of the seriousness of the impending rebellion. When he left, he likely thought he would be back in plenty of time for the birth of the child. Lyanna was left in the care of his best friend and all around wonder boy, Arthur Dayne. If any servants or wetnurses were with Rhaegar to begin with, they returned to the North with him.

2. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it, but it does not fit the narrative. There is simply no way they could have made it to the ToJ unseen, and no way they would have buried the secret.

Arthur Dayne is a member of the KG and holds no lands. Any loyalty is owed to Arthur's brother, the lord of the house. Additionally, a raven would have to have been sent to Starfall. It does not work within the framework of the author's narrative.

3. You are obsessed with Starfall, as you claim its people are privy to the secret that Ned took to his grave. I doubt Ned mentioned the circumstances of Jon at all. He likely told everyone Jon was a war orphan that he decided to adopt.

His cover story for the north is just that....a cover story. He never mentioned Wylla to anyone but Robert Baratheon. Other than that he never spoke of Jon's birth mother. Catelyn and the rest of castle thought Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne.

Again, look at the books geography before you post. It was never stated by the books or GRRM that the first place Ned visits is Starfall. With a newborn and an injured ally, he likely stopped at either nearby Kingsgrave, or Blackmount. Both well on the way to Starfall.

4. You are being rude as usual. I singled the Sword of the Morning out because by all accounts his brains matched his martial prowess. No one is saying he is a wetnurse. That is you putting words into my mouth once again.

My assertion is that he has saved many a maiden, and that he may have picked up some basic skills in helping along a pregnancy. I don't wee what is so ridiculous about that.

5. Once again that is your opinion and once again it does not fit the narrative.

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One last thing, and all parents will know what i'm talking about. When Ned left the ToJ, according to Stallion he would have had a badly injured Howland Reed and a newborn baby. So Ned would have had to both look after Reed AND provide milk for Jon. Ned had many talents, honorable and just man, pretty good with a sword, but the ability to lactate? Um not so much. Newborns need feeding every three hours and constant round the clock care? How did Ned manage all that before he got to Starfall?

One last thing, you really need to research all of the available information before you post. It makes you sound pretty clueless.

1. I never said how wounded Howland was, only that he was wounded.

2. Kingsgrave, Blackmont, and Skyreach are all in the vicinity of the ToJ and well on the way to Starfall.

3. No one said Starfall was Ned's first destination after the ToJ, that is another of your fictions. In fact, it flies in the face of your own reasoning.

According to Borasil RR Marin, there are secret characters in the world of ASOIAF that know the secrets of the ToJ and have kept them secret for all of this time. Even though such a secret could have brought them fabulous wealth.

Leave the storytelling to the Author....please.

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The ToJ scene is another of case if GRRM using an unreliable narrator. The reader is looking through the scene in a haze. Details are not clear. However, some of this stuff (like the wet-nurse) GRRM just didn't even think about. It's not the first time he has drop the ball on details.

This I agree with fully. I could not have said it better myself. GRRM gives us a framework full of holes and leaves us on our own to fill in the blanks as best we can. However, with Kingsgrave, Blackmont, and Skyreach so near to the ToJ, it fully explains any medical and pre-nadal care that was provided before Ned reaches Starfall.

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One last thing, you really need to research all of the available information before you post. It makes you sound pretty clueless.

1. I never said how wounded Howland was, only that he was wounded.

2. Kingsgrave, Blackmont, and Skyreach are all in the vicinity of the ToJ and well on the way to Starfall.

3. No one said Starfall was Ned's first destination after the ToJ, that is another of your fictions. In fact, it flies in the face of your own reasoning.

According to Borasil RR Marin, there are secret characters in the world of ASOIAF that know the secrets of the ToJ and have kept them secret for all of this time. Even though such a secret could have brought them fabulous wealth.

Leave the storytelling to the Author....please.

You said that Howland took a terrible wound which was why we'd not seen him in the books:

"I wouldn't call him an idiot, but I would have simply taken the KG out from horseback with bows and crossbows.  GRRM pretty much said Ser Arthur was all but invincible with Dawn in his hand.  I always assumed Howland Reed took a blow for Ned, giving him the split second he needed to mortally wound Dayne.  I think that is why Lord Howland has never left Greywater Watch/the Neck since the war.  He took a terrible wound from Ser Arthur Dayne to save his friends life."

So like I said, not only was Ned lactating to feed the baby Jon (absent a wet nurse) he was also taking care of his mortally wounded friend......by himself?........k

GRRM tells us that he visited Starfall to return Dawn, we've also heard tell that Jon had a milk mother at Starfall. Martin does not mention him visiting anywhere else. As you say leave the story telling to the author, except that doesn't stop you from claiming detours with a baby and wounded friend that are never mentioned in the books.

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