Everything we know about Tourney of Harrenhal

[Dragonstar]

Knight of the Laughing Tree:

"The mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces"

Only people who know about the 3 squires are Howland, Lyanna, Brandon, Eddard and Benjen. Brandon and Eddard are too big and would have their own armor (20 and 18 years old + fairly big guys). Benjen was younger than Lyanna (she was 13-14 years old) so he was probably too young. It is either Howland or Lyanna. If it was Lyanna, it would help connect the dots to how Rhaegar became intrigued with her. It makes sense for it to be Lyanna.

Whoa... Lyanna was 14... so she was like 15 when she was kidnapped ? I keep forgetting how creepy the timelines and kids ages are in the series

[Javier Garcia]

-Rhaegar doesn't usually win, so this is uncharacteristic, Dayne and Selmy are very good

It's pretty obvious that most knights (if not all) let Rhaegar win:

- Ned remembers the jousting "as if lances couldn't touch Rhaegar" (even a mediocre jouster can hit the opponent's shield with the lance, but noone's gonna risk a bad hit that could harm the King's heir).

- Barristan tells Dany that Rhaegar wasn't a great warrior, that he was more interested in other things BUT that he won that tournament.

- Barristan (described as a square-head by Dany; remember the pillows) is the one that points out to Robert that if he participates in the melee combat in the Tournament of the Hand other knights won't dare touch him. He knows this because he did the same with Rhaegar. He wanted to win the tournament to crown Ashara, but being an infinitely better jouster than Rhaegar he had to lose.

- Members of the KG made vows not to raise arms against the royal family. We see this in the Dunk & Egg stories (on a trial by combat, 7v7).

[Father of Hosts]

It's pretty obvious that most knights (if not all) let Rhaegar win:

- Ned remembers the jousting "as if lances couldn't touch Rhaegar" (even a mediocre jouster can hit the opponent's shield with the lance, but noone's gonna risk a bad hit that could harm the King's heir).

- Barristan tells Dany that Rhaegar wasn't a great warrior, that he was more interested in other things BUT that he won that tournament.

- Barristan (described as a square-head by Dany; remember the pillows) is the one that points out to Robert that if he participates in the melee combat in the Tournament of the Hand other knights won't dare touch him. He knows this because he did the same with Rhaegar. He wanted to win the tournament to crown Ashara, but being an infinitely better jouster than Rhaegar he had to lose.

- Members of the KG made vows not to raise arms against the royal family. We see this in the Dunk & Egg stories (on a trial by combat, 7v7).

This is awesome. Never even thought about this. A+.

[Albertine]

I like the idea of Lyanna jousting to defend Howland. It really adds poignancy to Howland's presence at the Tower of Joy.

To think that Howland and Lyanna would have formed a real friendship, and how grateful Howland would be to the girl who sheltered and defended him, but then when he thinks he's found the chance to return the favor and 'save' Lyanna, he doesn't arrive until she's on her deathbed.

You can really understand how an experience like that would set Howland up to be the one who guards the secret of Jon's parentage (and to be the RIGHT person to do it, because he'd keep faith for as long as he has to), and why Howland would send his children to Bran, even though he must have known that Joden and Meera might not both return from the journey.

[Mladen]

Whoa... Lyanna was 14... so she was like 15 when she was kidnapped ? I keep forgetting how creepy the timelines and kids ages are in the series

Yeap, and Sansa was 12/13 when she got married... How creepy is that? :)

But the creepiest marriage goes to that baby Crown married...

[Aurane Velaryon]

how do we know the Tourney was in year 281? I always thought Rhaegar named Lyanna queen of love and beauty after Elia had Aegon and she couldn't have any more kids which is why he set his sights on Lyanna but if the date is correct, the ToH was about a year before Aegon was even born and way before Robert's Rebellion.

[Blackfish Tully]

It's pretty obvious that most knights (if not all) let Rhaegar win:

- Ned remembers the jousting "as if lances couldn't touch Rhaegar" (even a mediocre jouster can hit the opponent's shield with the lance, but noone's gonna risk a bad hit that could harm the King's heir).

- Barristan tells Dany that Rhaegar wasn't a great warrior, that he was more interested in other things BUT that he won that tournament.

- Barristan (described as a square-head by Dany; remember the pillows) is the one that points out to Robert that if he participates in the melee combat in the Tournament of the Hand other knights won't dare touch him. He knows this because he did the same with Rhaegar. He wanted to win the tournament to crown Ashara, but being an infinitely better jouster than Rhaegar he had to lose.

- Members of the KG made vows not to raise arms against the royal family. We see this in the Dunk & Egg stories (on a trial by combat, 7v7).

I'm not to sure about this because when Jamie was reading the White Book he came across this quote about Barristan "Sole champion of Lord Steffon’s tourney at Storm’s End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen." He had no trouble defeating the prince in that tournament why would he all of the sudden decide he could not hit Rhaegar in the Tournament at Harrenhall.

[Father of Hosts]

I'm not to sure about this because when Jamie was reading the White Book he came across this quote about Barristan "Sole champion of Lord Steffon’s tourney at Storm’s End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen." He had no trouble defeating the prince in that tournament why would he all of the sudden decide he could not hit Rhaegar in the Tournament at Harrenhall.

Rhaegar would have to give them permission to strike him, even in tournament. If he decided he needed to win that tournament, he could just rescind his previous order allowing them to strike him.

Dunk and Egg show us that Kingsguard may not harm members of the royal family, even in contest, and that they are only able to defend themselves from injury.

[FooFighterDDS]

Yeah I agree, I think Brandon is the 'Stark' that slept with Ashara.

Also, the Tully's aren't mentioned anywhere in the text yet, but they most likely had a few people there. Edmure Tully was or became Brandon Stark's squire around that time. Brynden Tully (Blackfish) was hanging out with all the Eyrie people and it seems like a lot of those guys came to the Tourney (Arryn, Royce, Hunter). Hoster Tully, Catelyn, and Lysa were in Riverrun which isn't that far away from Harrenhal. Minesa Whent was dead already though, she died during childbirth to another boy a couple years after Edmure was born.

I don't think the the Tully's were there. They are a prominent family and most likely would have been mentioned. Also, I doubt Brandon would have messed around with Ashara (which we both agree happened) if there was a Tully present. That would have been hugely disrespectful.

As for the KoLT, Lyanna and Howland Reed are the most likely candidates but the others can't be dismissed.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_was_the_Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree

[Ygrain]

It's pretty obvious that most knights (if not all) let Rhaegar win:

Is it? Did everyone let Ser Jorah win, or was he sort of touched by charm as he wore Lynesse's favour?

- Ned remembers the jousting "as if lances couldn't touch Rhaegar" (even a mediocre jouster can hit the opponent's shield with the lance, but noone's gonna risk a bad hit that could harm the King's heir).

It is also said that Rhaegar was unstoppable that day, and when Barristan reminiscences about Harrenhall, he certainly doesn't mention that he intentionally missed the prince.

- Barristan tells Dany that Rhaegar wasn't a great warrior, that he was more interested in other things BUT that he won that tournament.

Can you provide the exact quote? He did say that Rhaegar was interested in other things and didn't ride at tourneys often, but I do not recall him assessing Rhaegar's skill as bad.

And, as for winning despite not being the best jouster out there... see the example with Jorah.

- Barristan (described as a square-head by Dany; remember the pillows) is the one that points out to Robert that if he participates in the melee combat in the Tournament of the Hand other knights won't dare touch him. He knows this because he did the same with Rhaegar. He wanted to win the tournament to crown Ashara, but being an infinitely better jouster than Rhaegar he had to lose.

Meelee is rather different from jousting. You can have bad accidents in jousting, as well, but meelee is by far more dangerous.

- Members of the KG made vows not to raise arms against the royal family. We see this in the Dunk & Egg stories (on a trial by combat, 7v7).

Jousting is not raising arms. Barristan muses "if I had unhorsed the prince", not "if I was allowed" or anything to the effect.

how do we know the Tourney was in year 281? I always thought Rhaegar named Lyanna queen of love and beauty after Elia had Aegon and she couldn't have any more kids which is why he set his sights on Lyanna but if the date is correct, the ToH was about a year before Aegon was even born and way before Robert's Rebellion.

The tourney was 281, Aegon was born 282, Lyanna died 283, and the events are about a year from each other. It seems that Rhaegar developed feelings for Lyanna at the tourney but acted on them only after Elia couldn't bear any more children.

[Castellan]

It raises the question, if an alliance of Lords willing to help Rhaegar oust Aerys was being put together as you say is probable, why would Rhaegar call them together at Harrahal and then piss on them by publicly trying to steal Robert Baratheons betrothed? It insults Robert - hence all Baratheons, and Lord Stark, who is now also connected to the Tully's through Brandon & Catelyns betrothal so it puts them offside too, and presumably Arryn who is Robert's foster father, and the Dornish most of all - doesn't leave many people left for any coalition.

What Rhaegar was up to remains the biggest mystery of the book - maybe along with what Varys was up to.

[Morienthar]

It raises the question, if an alliance of Lords willing to help Rhaegar oust Aerys was being put together as you say is probable, why would Rhaegar call them together at Harrahal and then piss on them by publicly trying to steal Robert Baratheons betrothed? It insults Robert - hence all Baratheons, and Lord Stark, who is now also connected to the Tully's through Brandon & Catelyns betrothal so it puts them offside too, and presumably Arryn who is Robert's foster father, and the Dornish most of all - doesn't leave many people left for any coalition.

What Rhaegar was up to remains the biggest mystery of the book - maybe along with what Varys was up to.

Rhaegar mucked it up,his superstition won over the brilliant planning.

He wanted the third head.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Whole thing's basically a big love story. Lyanna is Knight of the Laughing Tree, Rhaegar finds out and is genuinely impressed/infatuated with this feisty proto-Arya full of compassion (for Howland) and courage (for doing it). No, the other lords weren't letting him win, he won because of his extra determination due to meeting Lyanna (yeah, it's kinda cheesy but eh, whatever).

It raises the question, if an alliance of Lords willing to help Rhaegar oust Aerys was being put together as you say is probable, why would Rhaegar call them together at Harrahal and then piss on them by publicly trying to steal Robert Baratheons betrothed? It insults Robert - hence all Baratheons, and Lord Stark, who is now also connected to the Tully's through Brandon & Catelyns betrothal so it puts them offside too, and presumably Arryn who is Robert's foster father, and the Dornish most of all - doesn't leave many people left for any coalition.

It's called love, man. It isn't rational. One of the most reoccurring features of the books, from Robb and Jeyne to Egg and his children to even Ned talking to Cersei, is that thinking with your heart in this feudalistic society is going to get you in serious trouble politically and will probably end with you and a bunch of other innocents killed. Rhaegar and Lyanna are on one hand, the cliche tragic doomed starcrossed lovers, but this work more thoroughly analyzes what the consequences would be.

[Ser G Man]

Whole thing's basically a big love story. Lyanna is Knight of the Laughing Tree, Rhaegar finds out and is genuinely impressed/infatuated with this feisty proto-Arya full of compassion (for Howland) and courage (for doing it). No, the other lords weren't letting him win, he won because of his extra determination due to meeting Lyanna (yeah, it's kinda cheesy but eh, whatever).

It's called love, man. It isn't rational. One of the most reoccurring features of the books, from Robb and Jeyne to Egg and his children to even Ned talking to Cersei, is that thinking with your heart in this feudalistic society is going to get you in serious trouble politically and will probably end with you and a bunch of other innocents killed. Rhaegar and Lyanna are on one hand, the cliche tragic doomed starcrossed lovers, but this work more thoroughly analyzes what the consequences would be.

1) Great points. I think you nailed it.

2) Love the "Starburns" avatar. #community #greendale #humanbeings #pop #pop :-)

[Ser G Man]

Was there any mention of Robert Baratheon participating in any of the events? Well, aside from the aforementioned drinking contest, that is.

[Fauch]

Wasn't the story of Rhaegars warrior prowess that "he did well because he did everything well" ?

Rhaegar was probably not the best jouster ever, but he was certainly good enough to win a tourney.

[Ser G Man]

From the Wiki:

"Rhaegar was exceedingly intelligent and excelled at anything he put his mind to. He was considered to be a talented musician and skilled knight."

"He became a noted warrior later in life, although he did not initially seem inclined to martial habits. However, he became motivated to excel in this field, apparently by something he read.

At 17, he was knighted, and from all reports grew into a highly skilled and capable fighter, always distinguishing himself well at tournaments, although he seldom entered the lists."

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

A minor point perhaps, but I've always found it significant to look at who did NOT attend-

Lord Rickard Stark

Lord Hoster Tully (no Tullys present)

Lord Jon Arryn (included in your list of attendees, and on the wiki but I've always thought he was absent- can anyone find a quote proving that he was there?)

@Ser G Man- Robert participated in the melee.

[Ser G Man]

@Ser G Man- Robert participated in the melee.

Thank you, my Lady.

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

Whole thing's basically a big love story. Lyanna is Knight of the Laughing Tree, Rhaegar finds out and is genuinely impressed/infatuated with this feisty proto-Arya full of compassion (for Howland) and courage (for doing it). No, the other lords weren't letting him win, he won because of his extra determination due to meeting Lyanna (yeah, it's kinda cheesy but eh, whatever).

It's called love, man. It isn't rational. One of the most reoccurring features of the books, from Robb and Jeyne to Egg and his children to even Ned talking to Cersei, is that thinking with your heart in this feudalistic society is going to get you in serious trouble politically and will probably end with you and a bunch of other innocents killed. Rhaegar and Lyanna are on one hand, the cliche tragic doomed starcrossed lovers, but this work more thoroughly analyzes what the consequences would be.

I totally agree.

IIRC Rhaegar broke 15 lances against Arthur at another tourney and eventually won.

Also The knight of the Laughing Tree has to be Lyana. Howland should not need to disguise himself to defend himself. It could have been Benjen, but it dosent seem to fit with the story. That leaves Lyana.

Brandon wouldnt have slept with Ashara, as mentioned above somewhere. He was about to get married. IIRC he wanted to marry that Barrow/Dustin woman, but had to marry Catelyn.

The only person I can think of who could rape Ashara and get away with it was Mad King Aerys. He was a known rapist and the kingsguard wouldnt have stopped him. Might of pissed off Arthur though and later helped him side with Rhaegar at the TOJ, instead defending his king.

Little Ned Dayne told Arya that her aunty said Ashara loved Ned.

Had the shit not gone down the way it did, Ned and Ashara would have married. That is a definate maybe! The Starks and Dayne unite once again! Also definate maybe.