What if Ned was declared Hand of the King inmediately after the War of the Usurper?0

[mrunderhill]

Things go badly unless Ned has the sense to make peace and strong alliances with the Tyrells which is far from certain. Ned sends Jaime to the wall and Tywin is furious. Tywin would then probably give up the Mountain and Lorch in return for the cooperation of Viserys. There is a good chance that Viserys returns "leading" a Lannister and Tyrell army.

[Fauch]

Thing is, giving up the Mountain/Lorch would reconcile no one. After the sack of Kings Landing, having the Lannisters end up on the Targ side of things again is....highly unlikely.

Viserys and Tywin? After Jaime killed Aerys, and Tywin ordered to kill Rhaenys, Aegon and Elia?

The Tyrells don't strike me as THE biggest Targ loyalists either. Dorne, yes, but then again, Elia....

[mrunderhill]

Thing is, giving up the Mountain/Lorch would reconcile no one. After the sack of Kings Landing, having the Lannisters end up on the Targ side of things again is....highly unlikely.

Viserys and Tywin? After Jaime killed Aerys, and Tywin ordered to kill Rhaenys, Aegon and Elia?

The Tyrells don't strike me as THE biggest Targ loyalists either. Dorne, yes, but then again, Elia....

The Tyrells were big Targaryen loyalist, much, much more devoted than the Dornish. In fact it always seemed rather short sighted of Doran not to support the Targaryens more.

In the end Viserys was prepared to sell his sister/future wife to get back the throne. A few years more of begging, Tywin making his case and offering him back the throne, who knows.

[Fauch]

The Tyrells were big Targaryen loyalists ....

Sources? Doran has been plotting for years to put a Targ back on the throne. The Tyrells on the other hand first tried to marry Margaery to Robert, then to Renly, then to Joffrey/Tommen.

I might be wrong here but I can't remember reading anything about how "devoted" the Tyrells were to the Targ cause.

edit: Dorne also had 20.000? I think dornish soldiers at the Trident under Prince Lewyn. Rhaegar was married to Elia.

All Mace Tyrell did was set up a siege on storms end. When he heard that the battle of the Trident was lost, he immediately dipped his banners, and surrendered.

[Djinn]

With Ned as Hand, Jaime is executed or sent to the Wall. When Balon Rebels, Tywin and Mace join him(Cersei and Wyllas match make sure of it).

Ned is a crappy politician.

[mrunderhill]

Sources? Doran has been plotting for years to put a Targ back on the throne. The Tyrells on the other hand first tried to marry Margaery to Robert, then to Renly, then to Joffrey/Tommen.

I might be wrong here but I can't remember reading anything about how "devoted" the Tyrells were to the Targ cause.

edit: Dorne also had 20.000? I think dornish soldiers at the Trident under Prince Lewyn. Rhaegar was married to Elia.

All Mace Tyrell did was set up a siege on storms end. When he heard that the battle of the Trident was lost, he immediately dipped his banners, and surrendered.

Kevan says as much at the end of Dance. He mentions how fanatical their devotion was. If Mace had taken Storm's End that would have may have effectively ended the war. Robert would have lost his home and the crown would have two powerful hostages to use against him. The aura Robert had about him would die and most people would begin to melt away.

What was Mace supposed to do with half the Targaryens dead and the only remain Targaryens were a pregnant woman and an eight year old boy? He had no choice, but to surrender.

As I said Doran seemed very short sighted, because his nephew was supposed to be the future king. If the Targaryens lost then there is a good chance his nephew dies, even if his niece and sister survived. Doran held back the Dornish support, because he was a cautious man and due to Rhaegar's treatment of Elia.

[Fauch]

I skimmed through the chapter. Are we talking about the epilogue chapter of Kevan at the end of Dance? If Mace Tyrell is as big a Targ loyalist as you claim him to be, shouldn't he excited to have a Targ return to Westeros? Instead all we hear constantly throughout the books is that the Targs "have friends in Dorne". A dornish prince is sent to wed Dany. Doran wants "Fire and Blood".

Let's have a look at the chapter you mention:

"A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn."

"As mad as her father," declared Lord Mace Tyrell.

Now, I guess this is what you are referring to:

(Kevan) That would be the same father that Highgarden and House Tyrell supported to the bitter end and well beyond.

Then there is talk of the Dornish joining their strength to Aegon.

Now I would certainly argue that the Dornish, who directly take steps to have the Targs brought back into power, who wanted to support Viserys, and now Dany, who had a princess married to Rhaegar and who had a long tradition of providing brides to the Targs, are more loyal than the Tyrells, who, at this point certainly have zero interest of having the Targs back in power.

Mace Tyrell even talks of "dealing" with this fake Targaryen once Margaery's trial is over.

[mrunderhill]

I skimmed through the chapter. Are we talking about the epilogue chapter of Kevan at the end of Dance? If Mace Tyrell is as big a Targ loyalist as you claim him to be, shouldn't he excited to have a Targ return to Westeros? Instead all we hear constantly throughout the books is that the Targs "have friends in Dorne". A dornish prince is sent to wed Dany. Doran wants "Fire and Blood".

Let's have a look at the chapter you mention:

"A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn."

"As mad as her father," declared Lord Mace Tyrell.

Now, I guess this is what you are referring to:

(Kevan) That would be the same father that Highgarden and House Tyrell supported to the bitter end and well beyond.

Then there is talk of the Dornish joining their strength to Aegon.

Now I would certainly argue that the Dornish, who directly take steps to have the Targs brought back into power, who wanted to support Viserys, and now Dany, who had a princess married to Rhaegar and who had a long tradition of providing brides to the Targs, are more loyal than the Tyrells, who, at this point certainly have zero interest of having the Targs back in power.

Mace Tyrell even talks of "dealing" with this fake Targaryen once Margaery's trial is over.

The Kevan quote says it all about how loyal the Tyrells were, but now things have changed and their daughter sits on the throne. In any other situation they would be waving the banners for the Targaryens to return.

The Dornish want revenge and by any means that will work. If they were true Targaryen loyalist then they would have supported them against the rebellion.

[Booknerd2]

Ned would have had less years of a relatively happy home life before something happened.

Less Lannister cousins/people etc. would have had influence. I think Ned would have watch who surrounded Robert and did what he could for a stubborn king.

If he didn't act as Varys wanted him to, that could cause problems.

He'd have LF hating him anyway, and possibly breathing down Cat's neck. But that depends on whether or not she stayed at WF. If she "commuted" from time to time, they might have had less children too.

His children would have been raised in court at KL, and not to their benefit. And Jon, who knows...I doubt he'd be at court. Actually, Ned could have then sent him or any on his sons to Jon Arryn at the Vale, because he would be home and not Robert's Hand. Or send his boys to WF, maybe Jon, but if Cat was there...

I think Sansa and Arya would have been raised and stayed in KL. Probably would have learned since toddlerhood that Joff was a jerk.

[Fauch]

The Kevan quote says it all about how loyal the Tyrells were, but now things have changed and their daughter sits on the throne. In any other situation they would be waving the banners for the Targaryens to return.

The Dornish want revenge and by any means that will work. If they were true Targaryen loyalist then they would have supported them against the rebellion.

As I already pointed out, the Dornish probably had the biggest part in the defense of the Targaryens against Robert & friends. The major part of the army that fought at the Trident were Dornishmen, 20.000 under Prince Lewyn as far as I remember.

The Tyrrels meanwhile were sitting at Storms End, "feasting" outside of the walls.

[Lord Damian]

Robert would not have married Cersei and house Lannister would have been kept away from Kings Landing as much as possible. robert may have ended up marrying, Asha Greyjoy or Arianne Martell. Ned would have been adamant that Cercei Lannister not be queen becuae of how untrustworthy the Lannisters had arleady proven to be.

[Fauch]

Both Arianne and Asha are unlikely candidates. After Elias death, Dorne would most likely have been hesitant to provide another bride for another king. Did the Iron Islands even take sides during RR? They are the smallest and least important of the seven kingdoms anyway, and are culturally quite different. The realm would gain little from having Asha Greyjoy as queen.

Lysa Tully was already promised to Jon Arryn (the price that Jon had to pay for the spears of house Tully) and Catelyn first to Brandon, then to Ned. Lyanna Stark was dead, and Jon Arryn had neither sister nor daughter. Given the circumstances, a Tyrell-marriage would have been most likely.

[Lord Damian]

Both Arianne and Asha are unlikely candidates. After Elias death, Dorne would most likely have been hesitant to provide another bride for another king. Did the Iron Islands even take sides during RR? They are the smallest and least important of the seven kingdoms anyway, and are culturally quite different. The realm would gain little from having Asha Greyjoy as queen.

Lysa Tully was already promised to Jon Arryn (the price that Jon had to pay for the spears of house Tully) and Catelyn first to Brandon, then to Ned. Lyanna Stark was dead, and Jon Arryn had neither sister nor daughter. Given the circumstances, a Tyrell-marriage would have been most likely.

As far as Dorne is concerned that is valid, however, the Lannisters would have been almost non-present in Kings Landing. Ned would not have been likely to pardon Ser Gregor or let Tywin get off the hook. It is more possible than one might think.

[Magic 8 Ball]

Wasn't Ned too young to be hand at that point?

Between him and Bobby B it would have been like two teenagers running the Kingdom

[Fauch]

You mean if Robert/Ned basically state that:

- The sack of Kings Landing has nothing to do with our Rebellion

- Tywin will get punished for the slaughtering of Elia/her children

Yes then I could see Dorne providing a Queen for Robert. The problem I have with that is:

- Rhaegars children had to die if Roberts throne was ever to be secure. Even Ned knows this, he just doesn't think stuff like that through fully. If Tywin&Co don't kill

Aegon/Rhaenys, then Robert has to do it himself, if his throne is ever to be secure. Tywin himself states (during SoS) that killing Elia was folly, and by herself she "was

nothing". Robert is actually glad that Tywin did the dirty work for him, because "heroes don't kill children".

[mrunderhill]

Wasn't Ned too young to be hand at that point?

Between him and Bobby B it would have been like two teenagers running the Kingdom

Tywin was the same age when he became Hand and Aerys could not have been much older. Tywin did a good job running the kingdom for 20 odd years.

As I already pointed out, the Dornish probably had the biggest part in the defense of the Targaryens against Robert & friends. The major part of the army that fought at the Trident were Dornishmen, 20.000 under Prince Lewyn as far as I remember.

The Tyrrels meanwhile were sitting at Storms End, "feasting" outside of the walls.

The Dornish supplied about 10,000 men only for Rhaegar and they could have supplied more. The Tyrells probably supplied as many men for the Trident if not more as well as besieging Storm's End. I already mentioned the importance of taking Storm's End; it could virtually end the rebellion.

[otherbeef]

Jon Arryn was the best guy for the job easily

[King Robert's Warhammer]

I'd like to think that a Bob/Ned team would have been a great success but I suspect that Bob would still have fecked it all up.

[Jose Stark]

Wasn't Ned too young to be hand at that point?

Between him and Bobby B it would have been like two teenagers running the Kingdom

Tywin was made hand when he was 18 so there was precedent of a young man being an effective hand

And from what we've heard ned made a great politician in all his years in the north in charge

[Fauch]

Obviously besieging Storms End wasn't worthless. Yet it has been mentioned that Mace Tyrell was more or less camping in front of Storms End, having a good time.

ASoIaF wiki says the Trident Army only had Several hundred levies from the Reach. I cannot find more sources atm.

I also fail to see how the number of soldiers provided accounts (if you are right here) for

"The Tyrells were big Targaryen loyalist, much, much more devoted than the Dornish"

The Reach can easily field twice, if not three times as many soldiers as Dorne. That doesn't necessarily make them more devoted to the Targaryen cause. One of the biggest Targ supporters is house Darry, who probably can only field a few hundred soldiers.

Basically what I see throughout the books is that whenever people talk about Targaryen supporters, Dorne is mentioned. House Martell is also the only one of the great houses scheming to get the Targaryens back into power. The Tyrells had what 10+ years during which Margarery wasn't queen. Why didn't make Mace Tyrell a move to get Viserys back on the throne, like Doran did?