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How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)


Bridgeburners

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I never liked the "love story" that the show presented between Tyrion and Shae. I liked how in the books it was just a raw, nasty business and all the "love" was a part of Tyrion's imagination. In the show it's presented way too much like those typical romantic comedies.


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If Tyrion isn't going to kill Shae, I'm going to riot. DnD should stop whitewashing Tyrion and they should show more of his darker side, which I expect them to do now.

Even though I love HBO-Tywin, he deserves to die and all, but this is still going to be a sad moment. A son killing his father. (and no please don't drop the Aerys-bomb)

Sent to the wall maybe, die? For what killing a mass murderer?

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If Tyrion isn't going to kill Shae, I'm going to riot. DnD should stop whitewashing Tyrion and they should show more of his darker side, which I expect them to do now.

Definitely happening. I also noticed that Tyrion's got scratches on his face in the promo.

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Guys, chill out. The scene will most likely be similar to the one from the book, but instead of strangling Shae with the golden chain, Tyrion will do it with the necklace he gave her - that's the reason they introduced that necklace. It won't be cheerful, although I'm sure that some people will think that Shae "deserved it". Anyway, Tyrion will be bitter. Then he will go and kill Tywin with a crossbow, and when you have Charles Dance and Peter Dinklage in a 1-on-1 scene, you know that it has to be a good one.ED



EDIT: And BTW, it's true that Tyrion is nicer in the show, but I think that some of you are overestimating Tyrion's whitewashing. In the books, he is mostly a dick to the characters who are unsympathetic and while he does some questionable things, it doesn't change his status as a fan-favourite at all. When the show-watchers read the books, it is VERY unlikely that their whole perception of Tyrion will change. They will simply think that Tyrion is a bit rougher. Note that in the show Tyrion's ADwD material is not covered yet.


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I don't understand the sympathy for Shae. Her false testimony contributed to an innocent man getting convicted and charged with death, which is indirect murder. She might have been forced into it, but she had a chance to leave and she never took it.

It did such thing. He was already going to be guilty no matter what Shae said both in the book and in the show. As Jaime said, it wasn't a trial, it was a farce. When Jaime and Tywin are talking, they both know a guilty verdict is going to be reached. Jaime even tells Tyrion that and tells him to after plead for mercy.

He killed her just because she embarrassed him.

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It did such thing. He was already going to be guilty no matter what Shae said both in the book and in the show. As Jaime said, it wasn't a trial, it was a farce. When Jaime and Tywin are talking, they both know a guilty verdict is going to be reached. Jaime even tells Tyrion that and tells him to after plead for mercy.

He killed her just because she embarrassed him.

Oh, I know why he kills her, but the question is whether we should feel sorry about it. He would still be convicted if she didn't testify, but that doesn't change the fact that she still did and it was probably the most damning testimony of all. Book-Shae I have absolutely no sympathy for, considering she's an awful person going on about Lollys deserving the 50 rapes (or something along those lines). Show-Shae just confuses me. One minute she'll kill for "that girl", the next she's condemning that same girl for regicide. Inconsistent writing, so I don't even know what to think. We'll see how she acts when Tyrion pays her another visit. Perhaps I'll feel a tinge of pity.

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Oh, I know why he kills her, but the question is whether we should feel sorry about it. He would still be convicted if she didn't testify, but that doesn't change the fact that she still did and it was probably the most damning testimony of all. Book-Shae I have absolutely no sympathy for, considering she's an awful person going on about Lollys deserving the 50 rapes (or something along those lines). Show-Shae just confuses me. One minute she'll kill for "that girl", the next she's condemning that same girl for regicide. Inconsistent writing, so I don't even know what to think. We'll see how she acts when Tyrion pays her another visit. Perhaps I'll feel a tinge of pity.

I don't see how it has to be a debate about whether Shae was 'justified', though. I mean, that's something I worry about in our culture - that people are eager to condemn people as 'bad guys', and thus, suspend all notion of their human rights. Let's say, in a hypothetical case, that Shae was all bad in this scenario - that she completely played Tyrion for his money, decided of her own volition to testify against him without any persuasion from Tywin or Cersei, and then, simply seduced Tywin because she was horny and for no other reasons. That still doesn't justify Tyrion's murder. She was still a person who posed no threat to him and did her business with whom she chose and did what ever she wanted with her body (which she has every right to do). She contributed to his sentence, but people are reacting as if he strangled her before she testified. No, he did it afterwards, when she no longer posed any threat to him whatsoever. This wasn't an act of self defense or even a move to protect future victims for her treachery, it was 100% bonafide vengeance. That's all the Tyrion-defenders are really defending here, the right for someone to kill someone else because they want revenge, without actual regard for the impact it has.

See, I do argue that Shae deserved quite some sympathy - that she needed to protect her own life, etc, but it bothers me that we should even be having that discussion. You still have to establish the argument that if this person is a bad person deserving no sympathy then it's okay to kill them in cold blood even if they pose no threat to you. I would hope that nobody in our modern world holds that moral position, but apparently a lot of people do which is, to be blunt, pretty damn scary.

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I don't see how it has to be a debate about whether Shae was 'justified', though. I mean, that's something I worry about in our culture - that people are eager to condemn people as 'bad guys', and thus, suspend all notion of their human rights. Let's say, in a hypothetical case, that Shae was all bad in this scenario - that she completely played Tyrion for his money, decided of her own volition to testify against him without any persuasion from Tywin or Cersei, and then, simply seduced Tywin because she was horny and for no other reasons. That still doesn't justify Tyrion's murder. She was still a person who posed no threat to him and did her business with whom she chose and did what ever she wanted with her body (which she has every right to do). She contributed to his sentence, but people are reacting as if he strangled her before she testified. No, he did it afterwards, when she no longer posed any threat to him whatsoever. This wasn't an act of self defense or even a move to protect future victims for her treachery, it was 100% bonafide vengeance. That's all the Tyrion-defenders are really defending here, the right for someone to kill someone else because they want revenge, without actual regard for the impact it has.

See, I do argue that Shae deserved quite some sympathy - that she needed to protect her own life, etc, but it bothers me that we should even be having that discussion. You still have to establish the argument that if this person is a bad person deserving no sympathy then it's okay to kill them in cold blood even if they pose no threat to you. I would hope that nobody in our modern world holds that moral position, but apparently a lot of people do which is, to be blunt, pretty damn scary.

Fully agreed.

I've argued about this before, so I won't bother right now, especialy since you pretty much summed up my opinion, but i always find it downright scary to find people so eager for a witch hunt, especially when in this case we're talking about a young girl with little to no resources.

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I think that it's a natural thirst for revenge. In general, people like or at least don't complain when the character they are rooting for does sth to punish the ones who hurt him or her. And Shae did just that - she humiliated Tyrion publicly, so many readers thought that she "deserved" her fate.


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D&D turned what was a pathetic one-sided affair into some stupid Romeo & Juliet cliche. Tyrion cared so much for her (but she didn't understand) that he had to hurt her (for her own good), and now she's a woman scorned. In the book, she's just a lying ho who backstabs him as soon as she gets a better offer. On the show, she had understandable reasons for flipping on him.

This is true -- but show-Shae also loved Tyrion, making the "stupid Romeo & Juliet cliche" even more cliched. They loved each other, and when he hurt her "for her own good" (ha ha!), she hurt him back. Poor Tyrion should have spent some time watching daytime soap operas where this scenario has been done to death. The good guy ALWAYS cruelly dumps the girl he loves ("for her own good") and she NEVER understands it, so she hurts him right back. And it always ends in a mess.

Tyrion has a perfect right to be pissed off at Shae (for being too stupid to see what was really happening around her), but he has no right to kill her. She loved him. And stupidity is not justification for murder.

That said, if D&D can effectively use these two deaths to push Tyrion's character in a darker, more dangerous direction, then it might work. As others have said, he is definitely broken in the novel, and the man he will be when he finally meets Dany will be a very different Tyrion. What he did to his father and to Shae changes him in the books, and it needs to change him in the show.

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I think that it's a natural thirst for revenge. In general, people like or at least don't complain when the character they are rooting for does sth to punish the ones who hurt him or her. And Shae did just that - she humiliated Tyrion publicly, so many readers thought that she "deserved" her fate.

I do think the thirst for revenge is front-and-center on this show -- just look at Arya's ever-expanding List. It's just that most revenge-motivated killings in the show are about more than just a stupid bitch not knowing when to get out of town. Tryion has an understandable grudge against his father (and Cersei, for that matter), but his rage at Shae is misplaced. She certainly humiliated him, and she didn't die for him (had she died to protect him, he could have carried that little sacrifice around in his heart for the rest of his life!). But she should not be the focus of his rage.

I do think he will kill Shae in tonight's episode (and for a long time after reading the 3rd book, I was sure he would not), and I hope they have Tyrion just snapping when he sees her in Tywin's bed and killing her before he has a chance to think about what he's doing. And I hope they make it clear that this is not an act about which he will revel with pride over the next few months. He will regret it (as he will regret the culmination of his relationship with Tywin).

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"I know that he is guilty. He and Sansa planned it together." "He stole poison from the Grand Maester's chamber to put in Joffrey's wine."



What would the punishment be for a commoner to be caught lying under oath against someone of high noble blood? Against two someones?



It might just be death.

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This is true -- but show-Shae also loved Tyrion, making the "stupid Romeo & Juliet cliche" even more cliched. They loved each other, and when he hurt her "for her own good" (ha ha!), she hurt him back. Poor Tyrion should have spent some time watching daytime soap operas where this scenario has been done to death. The good guy ALWAYS cruelly dumps the girl he loves ("for her own good") and she NEVER understands it, so she hurts him right back. And it always ends in a mess.

Tyrion has a perfect right to be pissed off at Shae (for being too stupid to see what was really happening around her), but he has no right to kill her. She loved him. And stupidity is not justification for murder.

That said, if D&D can effectively use these two deaths to push Tyrion's character in a darker, more dangerous direction, then it might work. As others have said, he is definitely broken in the novel, and the man he will be when he finally meets Dany will be a very different Tyrion. What he did to his father and to Shae changes him in the books, and it needs to change him in the show.

I do agree with the bolded, but I also think that Tyrion seemed to be coming through the dark passage of the soul by the time ADWD ended. I'm not saying that he reverted to his old self, but he seemed to have hit 'bottom' already by the end of ADWD, and the question now is what will the upward turn entail, fully?

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I bet that my Unsullied, after watching her in Tywin's bed, will be satisfied with Tyrion killing her, they already can't stand her and the fact that she choosed to stay instead of taking the ship.

Yup. Most of the Unsullied I know absolutely hate Shae, and they would love to finally see someone put an end to Tywin, as much as they hate to love him. I can imagine a decent sized crowd finding it wrong that Tyrion killed them, but I foresee the larger crowd going :bowdown:

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The scene is open to interpretation.

Like when Walt does something "badass" in breaking bad. Some people say fuck yeah. Others think omg the horror.

This. It's all about how we feel about the character and if we sympathize with their situation.

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I'm curious, the people who do not believe it was okay for Tyrion to murder Shae, do they feel the same way about Tywin? Not trolling here, just genuinely curious.



I've said it before and I'll say it again, I did not feel any sympathy at all when book Shae died. Book Shae was a heartless opportunist who's testimony helped condemn Tyrion to death. We can argue that her testimony did not matter in the end, but that does not change the fact that she still did what she did. I am also not convinced that book Shae was coerced in the same manner that I suspect show Shae has been coerced. I think Shae saw an opportunity to better her station and she took it. We've seen no evidence to the contrary, so that's how I always interpreted that whole scenario. Consequently enough, I do not sympathize with anyone else involved in those testimonies who may or may not have come to gruesome ends, albeit under different circumstances.



I honestly don't know how I'm going to feel when show Shae dies. I actually really liked her character in the first two seasons and thought the fact that she genuinely cared for Tyrion gave the character more depth. Season 3 and the beginning of Season 4 changed that, but I do believe she is a much more sympathetic character in the show. So we'll just have to wait and see how it all pans out.



ETA: I imagine that when Shae is discovered to be in Tywin's bed, what little sympathy the audience may have left for the character will probably be completely lost.


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I don't want to get into this too much, bad things happen when you talk about people who have (supposedly) seen the episode. However, a TV critic on the Superheroes forum described the scene to be very raw and heartbreaking-



Shae almost scratches Tyrion's face off, desperately trying to survive



I'm not saying this is valid (could be lies, could be the truth... we shall see) but if the murder is displayed in such a dark way then there will be more controversy. However, I think people will still love Tyrion.



I'm very curious to know what their final words between each other are. Will Shae try and justify her actions or will Tyrion say something like "you would have saw me dead!" to reinforce the fact that he was sentenced to death with the help of her lies- making her murder seem justifiable. Either way, this should be a dark scene that will make people view Tyrion in a different light.



- "Even a very small man can cast a very large shadow." :(


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I'm curious, the people who do not believe it was okay for Tyrion to murder Shae, do they feel the same way about Tywin? Not trolling here, just genuinely curious.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I did not feel any sympathy at all when book Shae died. Book Shae was a heartless opportunist who's testimony helped condemn Tyrion to death. We can argue that her testimony did not matter in the end, but that does not change the fact that she still did what she did. I am also not convinced that book Shae was coerced in the same manner that I suspect show Shae has been coerced. I think Shae saw an opportunity to better her station and she took it. We've seen no evidence to the contrary, so that's how I always interpreted that whole scenario. Consequently enough, I do not sympathize with anyone else involved in those testimonies who may or may not have come to gruesome ends, albeit under different circumstances.

I honestly don't know how I'm going to feel when show Shae dies. I actually really liked her character in the first two seasons and thought the fact that she genuinely cared for Tyrion gave the character more depth. Season 3 and the beginning of Season 4 changed that, but I do believe she is a much more sympathetic character in the show. So we'll just have to wait and see how it all pans out.

ETA: I imagine that when Shae is discovered to be in Tywin's bed, what little sympathy the audience may have left for the character will probably be completely lost.

The fact that we (and Tyrion) had no evidence to tell us whether she testified as an opportunity or in the face of a threat should work against Tyrion killing her, not for. That is, unless you subscribe to the stone age philosophy of "guilty until proven innocent". I tend to subscribe the other way around, and I guess we could debate which one is better if you wish. But in my view, given what Tyrion knew (and based off the fact that Tywin has threatened him many times to have his whore killed if she's found), Tyrion was in no place to judge for himself whether or not she testified of her own volition. But that's irrelevant, when you consider my last post where I argued that, even if Shae was the most guilty possible in this scenario, that wouldn't justify Tyrion's murder. I would like you to respond to that one if you can.

As for whether or not it was right to kill Tywin... I admit that's a much more difficult question. It's like asking if it's okay to kill Stalin on the toilet while he's still in power, or let's say Hitler (more relevant since there were several assassination attempts against the latter). I don't believe in the death penalty - I think that if we catch a despicable person (even if he's the worst that you can imagine; if he raped and killed kids for example), I would still be against execution. However, it's a different story if the person is in power, which is why I would have rooted for the assassination of Hitler or Stalin. But we all know that Tyrion wasn't shooting Tywin for the good of the common folk, or the future victims that he might sick his 'Mountain's Men' or 'Brave Companions' on. He was doing it for his own personal vengeance. So I submit to you that, even though killing Tywin would be good for the realm and the common folk, I am conflicted on Tyrion killing him and I don't know the answer nearly as well as I do for Shae.

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