Is Satin a spy?

[Lady of Long Lake]

Satin is sent to the Wall well before Robb becomes King in the North though, and while Jon is still a rank and file member.

Firstly, AWESOME signature Danm!

Okay, what if LF wanted to make sure Jon or Benjen weren't going to come rescue Sansa?

What if LF wanted verification that Jon/Benjen weren't rallying the Watch to back up Robb?

What if LF wanted a spy at the Wall just in case his part in Ned's beheading became public knowledge?

[Ser Shaggydog]

i think he definitely has an interesting backstory. might not be of great significance, but interesting at least

[Mithras]

I think this makes sense if LF knows R+L=J.

[Buried Treasure]

Littlefinger knowing R+L=J doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He was a disgraced youth, not a spymaster, when all of that was going down.

Is the implication supposed to be that Littlefinger owns every brothel in the 7K's? Him owning brothels in the Vale or in KL makes a lot of sense, as those are places where he has lived and conducted business, and even in those places I doubt he owns every single one. Owning brothels in Oldtown seems less likely, and especially not establishments that provide him with a source of spies.

Even if I were to accept the premise that Satin was sent to the Wall as a spy (which I don't), how would he be a useful spy? Sending Raven's clandestinely can't be done. Depending on where he got assigned he might not have had regular access to any overland/oversea traders who could be bribed to carry messages. And swearing oaths often affects mens loyalties - Satin almost certainly did not come to the Wall with loyalty to the NW (likely he owed loyalty only to himself) but as of ADwD he seemed loyal to the Watch and to Jon.

[houseHB]

Not sure if the spy is Satin, but I do think that because of Mel's warning in Dance there are some members of the nights watch other than Bowen and company that Jon should be careful of. I thought that warning was be careful of some of the wildlings and my first thought was Tormund because Tormund has been acting nicely towards Jon in Dance and I thought it could all be an act. Perhaps Mance and the wildlings have a hidden agenda?

[Mithras]

Littlefinger knowing R+L=J doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He was a disgraced youth, not a spymaster, when all of that was going down.

Is the implication supposed to be that Littlefinger owns every brothel in the 7K's? Him owning brothels in the Vale or in KL makes a lot of sense, as those are places where he has lived and conducted business, and even in those places I doubt he owns every single one. Owning brothels in Oldtown seems less likely, and especially not establishments that provide him with a source of spies.

Even if I were to accept the premise that Satin was sent to the Wall as a spy (which I don't), how would he be a useful spy? Sending Raven's clandestinely can't be done. Depending on where he got assigned he might not have had regular access to any overland/oversea traders who could be bribed to carry messages. And swearing oaths often affects mens loyalties - Satin almost certainly did not come to the Wall with loyalty to the NW (likely he owed loyalty only to himself) but as of ADwD he seemed loyal to the Watch and to Jon.

LF may learn the truth later on. He does not have to be there when it happened. It is known that LF used boys for Lyn Corbray. In TV show, he used another boy whore to spy on Loras. So if he wanted to spy on the NW, he has every means to insert a boy whore there (Satin is taken from Gulltown dungeon!) and it makes sense. The only problem with this theory is that what is he going to do with Jon. I wonder if he is the mastermind behind this stabbing event in which he tries not to kill Jon but lure him out of the NW so that he can take him to his side and put on the Iron Throne. He may even marry him to Sansa. This way he can be the most powerful man in Westeros.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Suppose that that's true, where would LF's loyalty to Jon/Targaryens come from?

[Mithras]

Suppose that that's true, where would LF's loyalty to Jon/Targaryens come from?

I did not mean he is doing what he is doing because he is a nice guy. His only loyalty is to himself. As the archenemy of Varys, he should side with Dany (and Jon if he knows the truth). Not because he loves them but in order to gain power and influence. He is kind of a guy who likes to insert a puppet king and hold the strings.

[Frey family reunion]

Technically Satin and the rest of the recruits that accompanied him to the Wall, came from a Lord's dungeon near Gulltown. If you look at the map, the nearest castle to Gulltown would be Runestone, the seat of Lord Yohn Royce. It would be interesting to know who the greybeard with the staff was that was initially with the recruits, yet has apparently disappeared without further word. Could it be Oswell Kettleback or perhaps even Lord Royce?

[jet199]

Another reason LF might be interested in Jon is that Sansa doesn't have a direwolf to identify her like Rickon so if he wants to do a big reveal he will need a relative to confirm her identity. Especially as many know he was involved in FArya. This means LF has an interest in keeping Jon alive so it wouldn't implicate Satin in the stabbing.

I also think we haven't been told Satin's name for a reason.

[Buckthorn]

Maybe he's a FM.

[Lord Puff Fish]

While it's an interesting theory, I don't think it's all likely. Satin arrived at the Wall before Jon became LC, and if LF knew even a bit about Jon he'd think Jon would end up as a ranger like his uncle. Furthermore, the NW stays out of the affairs of Westeros so there would be no huge need to have a spy there. So far as most people know, the Wall is just making sure the wildlings stay out.

[Mithras]

While it's an interesting theory, I don't think it's all likely. Satin arrived at the Wall before Jon became LC, and if LF knew even a bit about Jon he'd think Jon would end up as a ranger like his uncle. Furthermore, the NW stays out of the affairs of Westeros so there would be no huge need to have a spy there. So far as most people know, the Wall is just making sure the wildlings stay out.

You dont get the point. If LF knows R+L=J, then LC or not he will need a hand on Jon. Jon is a tool he can surely use and it has everything to do with the Westeros politics.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Thanks for your reply. ;)

Now, as for Littlefinger knowing about Jon... I would find it a bit odd that he would know Ned better than Catelyn did in the time they were married. I get that Catelyn was probably distracted by her dislike and that's why she never figured it out, and that Littlefinger is a player who might have dug further, if there was such a thing, to know more about Cat's husband, but still it would sting a bit. Not that it isn't impossible.

We'll see. With those two you might never know.

[Lord Martin]

I am working on a theory that Satin was sent to the wall by Marwyn to keep an eye on events at the Wall and beyond, perhaps to get information on Maester Aemon or Jon Snow too.

When we first meet Satin, we do not know he is called Satin, but presumably he is the "foppish youth in soiled satin." Jon I, ACOK. For those who do not know, foppish means obsessed with clothing... a dandy might be another synonym.

We next see Satin preparing for the attack on Castle Black:

The boy claimed to be eighteen, older than Jon, but he was green as summer grass for all that. Satin, they called him, even in the wool and mail and boiled leather of the Night's Watch; the name he'd gotten in the brothel where he'd been born and raised. He was pretty as a girl with his dark eyes, soft skin, and raven's ringlets. Half a year at Castle Black had toughened up his hands, however, and Noye said he was passable with a crossbow. Whether he had the courage to face what was coming, though

Nothing too incriminating there. But why "raven haired?" Black is the Night's Watch's color, surely GRRM could have had Jon use a synonym for black other than "raven" which is of course well associated with Maesters. Onyx? Jet? Obsidian? Black as night? as a cloak? Why Raven?

Next:

"It's cold." Satin stood with his hands tucked into his armpits under his cloak. His cheeks were bright red.

Jon made himself smile. "The Frostfangs are cold. This is a brisk autumn day."

"I hope I never see the Frostfangs then. I knew a girl in Oldtown who liked to ice her wine. That's the best place for ice, I think. In wine." Satin glanced south, frowned. "You think the scarecrow sentinels scared them off, my lord?"

Satin innocuously complaints about the cold. Seems reasonable for someone from OldTown to hate the cold. Note he calls Jon Snow, "my lord" not "m'lord." Seems a tad well educated for a whore.

After the battle and Jon is made LC, he takes to keeping Satin with him.

Satin goes north to say his vows before a heart tree despite telling Jon that he worships the seven. He does not have any reason for this and it makes me wonder if he wanted to see what was beyond the wall? Was he bade to go there?

Then Jon makes him his personal Steward and we learn more about him:

Septon Cellador spoke up. "This boy Satin. It's said you mean to make him your steward and squire, in Tollett's place. My lord, the boy's a whore ... a ... dare I say ... a painted catamite from the brothels of Old-town."

And you are a drunk. "What he was in Oldtown is none of our concern. He's quick to learn and very clever. The other recruits started out despising him, but he won them over and made friends of them all. He's fearless in a fight and can even read and write after a fashion. He should be capable of fetching me my meals and saddling my horse, don't you think?"

So Satin can also read and write? We may have a few instances of low born being able to read and write, but very few. This seems really out of place for an Oldtown whore. This is more in keeping with Vary's birds or some sort of spy. As an aside, a catamine is a "bottom" or the receiver of anal sex.

But Satin isn't an ideal steward:

Jon's rooms behind the armory were quiet enough, if not especially warm. His fire had gone out some time ago; Satin was not as diligent in feeding it as Dolorous Edd had been.

A whore from Oldtown would likely be very solicitous of others and attuned to their needs/wants. He's not stupid so we know he'd be grateful for the fact that Jon Snow made him his personal steward. Satin also is acutely aware of the cold, so wouldn't he likely keep the LC's room blazing warm? Is he distracted? Spending time elsewhere?

And then there is Ghost:

Outside the armory, Mully and the Flea stood shivering at guard.

"Shouldn't you be inside, out of this wind?" Jon asked.

"That'd be sweet, m'lord," said Fulk the Flea, "but your wolf' s in no mood for company today."

Mully agreed. "He tried to take a bite o' me, he did."

"Ghost? " Jon was shocked. "Unless your lordship has some other white wolf, aye. I never seen him like this, m'lord. All wild-like, I mean."

He was not wrong, as Jon discovered for himself when he slipped inside the doors. The big white direwolf would not lie still. He paced from one end of the armory to the other, past the cold forge and back again.

"Easy, Ghost," Jon called. "Down. Sit, Ghost. Down." Yet when he made to touch him, the wolf bristled and bared his teeth. It' s that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink.

Mormont's raven seemed agitated too. "Snow," the bird kept screaming. "Snow, snow, snow. " Jon shooed him off, had Satin start a fire, then sent him out after Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck. "Bring a flagon of mulled wine as well."

Many believe Ghost is agitated because of the impending attack on Jon. But it appears that Satin was in Jon's room the whole time, he didn't arrive with Jon. So is he what is agitating Ghost? Also, Mully says "milord" instead of "My Lord." Later:

Satin helped them back into their cloaks. As they walked through the armory, Ghost sniffed at them, his tail upraised and bristling. My brothers. The Night's Watch needed leaders with the wisdom of Maester Aemon, the learning of Samwell Tarly, the courage of Qhorin Halfhand, the stubborn strength of the Old Bear, the compassion of Donal Noye. What it had instead was them.

So perhaps its the conspirators that are upsetting Ghost, but we have no reason to think Yarwick is involved. And if Marsh's treachery is so obvious to Ghost, why not attack Marsh? Perhaps its Satin that is bothering him?

I did another search for Oldtown Whores and came up with the Prologue to AFFC. It is said that Marwyn consorts with whores in Oldtown. Could he have been the one to send Satin? I re-visited AFFC:

Sam chewed on the question for a moment, wondering how much he ought to say. The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler. Could Maester Aemon have meant this Sphinx? It seemed unlikely. "Lord Commander Snow sent him away to save his life," he began, hesitantly. He spoke awkwardly of King Stannis and Melisandre of Asshai, intending to stop at that, but one thing led to another and he found himself speaking of Mance Rayder and his wildlings, king's blood and dragons, and before he knew what was happening, all the rest came spilling out; the wights at the Fist of First Men, the Other on his dead horse, the murder of the Old Bear at Craster's Keep, Gilly and their flight, Whitetree and Small Paul, Coldhands and the ravens, Jon's becoming lord commander, the Blackbird, Dareon, Braavos, the dragons Xhondo saw in Qarth, the Cinnamon Wind and all that Maester Aemon whispered toward the end. He held back only the secrets that he was sworn to keep, about Bran Stark and his companions and the babes Jon Snow had swapped. "Daenerys is the only hope," he concluded. "Aemon said the Citadel must send her a maester at once, to bring her home to Westeros before it is too late."

...

When Sam hesitated, one of those hands grabbed him by the arm and yanked him through the door. The room beyond was large and round. Books and scrolls were everywhere, strewn across the tables and stacked up on the floor in piles four feet high. Faded tapestries and ragged maps covered the stone walls. A fire was burning in the hearth, beneath a copper kettle. Whatever was inside of it smelled burned. Aside from that, the only light came from a tall black candle in the center of the room.

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?"

". . . obsidian," said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

"We would have no more need of ravens."

"Only after battles." The archmaester peeled a sourleaf off a bale, shoved it in his mouth, and began to chew it. "Tell me all you told our Dornish sphinx. I know much of it and more, but some small parts may have escaped my notice."

So Marwyn is able to see what is happening a the wall. I suppose he could use the candles for this, but does there need to be one at the wall? Did Satin bring it? Has he been corresponding with Marwyn?

I admit, its not a ton to go on... but there is something just a little off about Satin despite the fact he is a likeable character.

[RedChick]

Satin's a LF spy or a Faceless Man? Whaaa....

Damn there goes my hopes of shipping Jon with Satin.

[The Mother of The Others]

• No

[Mithras]

Lord Martin, Satin being the spy of Marwyn makes more sense than being LF's spy. You might be onto something there. And being Marwyn's man, he doesnt have to be evil.

[Sandy Clegg]

Could there be a further Littlefinger connection? It was people connecting Seralla with Alleras that first got me thinking this. Admittedly, Sarella to Alleras is not much of a stretch and is actually quite obviously a giveaway once you notice it. However, maybe this is only meant to serve as a clue to spotting another identity/name ruse...

Satin is his name. Satin with an I. But what if we spelled the name as so many Westerosi names are spelled, with a Y instead... Satyn. Petyr is also spelled with the Y, as is Lysa Arryn. (OK, and Varys and a thousand others ...)

But Satyn arranged gets Tansy.

Lysa Arryn's supposedly aborted love-child with Littlefinger, anyone? Satin's age (18 or thereabouts) would fit exactly with the timeline if it were true, and who better for Littlefinger to send on a mission of importance than his own son?

The fact that he was brought from a Gulltown dungeon, as well, hints at a Littlefinger plan in motion...

OK, well, I'll take off my tinfoil now, there's probably enough here to wrap my sandwiches for tomorrow's lunch =)

[Trigger Warning]

I think the connection is far too weak.