BondJamesBond Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 It seems there are still numerous doubters to R+L=J. There have been some interesting points made about a Ned and Ashara storyline. HOWEVER, I have never heard an alternative theory that explains the Tower of Joy storyline and specifically what Lyanna made Ned promise her. It seems like the alternate theories don't answer what happened at the Tower of Joy.Additionally, it seems arguments are being made that GRRM plans to surprise us, but I would argue that there is a lot of room for surprises and twists within the R+L=J storyline such as whether or not Jon was legitimated by Rhaegar.So, if there are any theories alternative to R+L=J that also clearly explain a plausible set of events at the Tower of Joy, please place them here. I can't think of any and thus fully subscribe to the prevailing theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabronius Maximus Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Well if we go with Ned and assume Wylla is Jon's mom, then Lyanna could've been Rhaegar's mistress. He may have made the kingsguard swear to protect her at all costs, but for what reason I cannot fathom. Hence the kingsguard did not flee because they were holding up their vow to Rhaegar. Or maybe Aerys saw her as a valuable hostage, and charged some of his kingsguard with the task of making sure she remains a hostage. Now, the 'bed of blood' could be a result of Lyanna trying to harm herself, because she was being treated horribly. And Ned's promise was to bury her in WF. For the record I believe RLJ, and it best explains the ToJ events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJamesBond Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 Well if we go with Ned and assume Wylla is Jon's mom, then Lyanna could've been Rhaegar's mistress. He may have made the kingsguard swear to protect her at all costs, but for what reason I cannot fathom. Hence the kingsguard did not flee because they were holding up their vow to Rhaegar. Or maybe Aerys saw her as a valuable hostage, and charged some of his kingsguard with the task of making sure she remains a hostage. Now, the 'bed of blood' could be a result of Lyanna trying to harm herself, because she was being treated horribly. And Ned's promise was to bury her in WF. For the record I believe RLJ, and it best explains the ToJ events.Okay, this is one of the best alternative theories, but still pretty weak (no offense, thanks for playing along as a fellow R+L=J supporter).First, it doesn't make sense that they'd need to protect Lyanna from Ned. Or, if she was a hostage by Aerys it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't just keep her in KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Well if we go with Ned and assume Wylla is Jon's mom, then Lyanna could've been Rhaegar's mistress. He may have made the kingsguard swear to protect her at all costs, but for what reason I cannot fathom. Hence the kingsguard did not flee because they were holding up their vow to Rhaegar. Or maybe Aerys saw her as a valuable hostage, and charged some of his kingsguard with the task of making sure she remains a hostage. Now, the 'bed of blood' could be a result of Lyanna trying to harm herself, because she was being treated horribly. And Ned's promise was to bury her in WF.For the record I believe RLJ, and it best explains the ToJ events.you must have known how weak this sounds when you wrote it but that's just it there's nothing close in terms of tieng loose ends to R+L=Ji think the only thing left to debate about that are if she went willingly or was raped and the legitimization thing but what i find interesting is that Jon was born at the time of the sack of kings landing not the TOJ (please correct me if i'm wrong ) so how does this effect the bed of blood quote as lyanna couldn't possibly be giving birth to Jon while the TOJ indecent happened then how did she die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJamesBond Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 you must have known how weak this sounds when you wrote it but that's just it there's nothing close in terms of tieng loose ends to R+L=Ji think the only thing left to debate about that are if she went willingly or was raped and the legitimization thing but what i find interesting is that Jon was born at the time of the sack of kings landing not the TOJ (please correct me if i'm wrong ) so how does this effect the bed of blood quote as lyanna couldn't possibly be giving birth to Jon while the TOJ indecent happened then how did she dieIf the timing is off, does this open the door to one of the KG falling for her and turning on Rhaegar if Rhaegar was treating her poorly?Just brainstorming here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherbeef Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 i believe R+L=J but why would Rhaegar go to such extremes to protect his second son (Jon) and not his actual heir (Aegon)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 i believe R+L=J but why would Rhaegar go to such extremes to protect his second son (Jon) and not his actual heir (Aegon)?He went to extremes? He put Lyanna in a tower with three (admittedly, very good) knights to protect her, while Aegon was sitting behind castle and city walls, protected by household knights, Gold Cloaks and a Kingsguard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 i believe R+L=J but why would Rhaegar go to such extremes to protect his second son (Jon) and not his actual heir (Aegon)?I think he assumed Aegon was safe in KL between the remaining KG and gold cloaks. And assumed if KL were in real danger they would have been taken to Dragonstone or Dorne for safe keeping. He didn't anticipate his death on the Trident or the sacking of KL. Plus, even if KL fell, the kids and Elia should have been safe. They weren't warriors, just valuable hostages. There was no way to foresee the heinous slaughter of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherbeef Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 He went to extremes? He put Lyanna in a tower with three (admittedly, very good) knights to protect her, while Aegon was sitting behind castle and city walls, protected by household knights, Gold Cloaks and a Kingsguard...hiding him in the middle of nowhere dorne with 3 great kingsguard knights seems like more a precaution than assuming he would win on the trident. he had to have known if he lost then King's Landing would fall, and at this point Robert had declared himself king and would likely rid himself of any rival claimants to his throne (Aegon). they are useless as hostages if the rest of the family is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 hiding him in the middle of nowhere dorne with 3 great kingsguard knights seems like more a precaution than assuming he would win on the trident. he had to have known if he lost then King's Landing would fall, and at this point Robert had declared himself king and would likely rid himself of any rival claimants to his throne (Aegon). they are useless as hostages if the rest of the family is dead.Elia's family isn't dead. Killing them made an enemy of Dorne for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherbeef Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Elia's family isn't dead. Killing them made an enemy of Dorne for life.they wouldn't ransom Aegon to Elia or her family anyway though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Walker Gore Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Jon could have been born a month earlier and not during TOJ, that is why she was there and not in KL, because she was about to give birth. She might have had a hard time during the birth and after so the maesters could have been bleeding her( or maybe she had gotten an infection from child birth and bleeding on her own) when her brother found her and that is why she died. R could have decided that he loved L and wanted thier child to be his true heir since Ella was known to be sickly, he might have assumed their children to be weak and not worthy. R would have had to leave L at the TOJ and taken his army to go fight, thinking he would win and come back and take L and J to KL to rule . The Targs were a weird family obssed with strength and ruling everyone. It would appear that R and Dany skipped the crazy gene in the family , but not a lot of details have come out yet on what he was really like so he might have come out crazy like the rest after all. If thats the case, Dany doesn't have far to go, things keep going badly for her and she is bound to break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 they wouldn't ransom Aegon to Elia or her family anyway thoughno, I'm thinking more of a Theon/ Stark situation. We (Robert and company) keep your family (Elia &kids) and you (Dorne) just sit there and don't fight back or we kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Chevrolet Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 R + L = Young Griff would explain everything that happened at the Tower of Joy just as well as R+L = J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Chevrolet Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Edited to remove a double post. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheirete Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 My guess is we will discover that Rhaegar was legimitaly married with Lyanna and not with Elia of Dorne, thus making Jon the real heir of the Targaryans and Aegon simply a bastard with no rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Some Targs had multiple wives, so he doesn't not have to be married to Elia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling Mad Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 It seems there are still numerous doubters to R+L=J. There have been some interesting points made about a Ned and Ashara storyline. HOWEVER, I have never heard an alternative theory that explains the Tower of Joy storyline and specifically what Lyanna made Ned promise her. It seems like the alternate theories don't answer what happened at the Tower of Joy.Additionally, it seems arguments are being made that GRRM plans to surprise us, but I would argue that there is a lot of room for surprises and twists within the R+L=J storyline such as whether or not Jon was legitimated by Rhaegar.So, if there are any theories alternative to R+L=J that also clearly explain a plausible set of events at the Tower of Joy, please place them here. I can't think of any and thus fully subscribe to the prevailing theory.If you take the time to carefully read through all 54 versions of the R+L=J thread all of your questions will be answered. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91992-rlj-v54/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobmartell Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 R+L=young griff? That's a new one to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Beyond the Wall Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 I think he assumed Aegon was safe in KL between the remaining KG and gold cloaks. And assumed if KL were in real danger they would have been taken to Dragonstone or Dorne for safe keeping. He didn't anticipate his death on the Trident or the sacking of KL. Plus, even if KL fell, the kids and Elia should have been safe. They weren't warriors, just valuable hostages. There was no way to foresee the heinous slaughter of them.This, and....the Targs were split up, so it makes sense that Lyanna and baby were kept at the Tower of Joy. Dany, Viserys, and mom were sent to away from the KL, and Elia and kids were there. If someone I'd trying to kill you, and all of your family, best chance of survival for anyone is not to be in the same location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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