R+L=J Alternatives that also Explain Tower of Joy Events

[The Mediocore Ron]

Robert Baratheon is Jon's father. He drunkenly raped Lyanna during a blackout and denied any knowledge of it the next morning as Cersei claimed he did with her. Rhaegar loved Lyanna and claimed the child was his, so the Kingsguard would protect the child. Aegon was still Rhaegar's heir. As Lyanna dies she tells Ned everything but makes Ned promise to tell no one. She wouldn't want her rapist to raise Jon.

That makes Jon Dany and Tyrion all children of rape whose mothers died delivering them (if Aerys raped Tryion's mother). The three heads of the dragon.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

R+L=young griff? That's a new one to me.

It ties in with the idea that Septa Lemore is really Ashara Dayne. Eddard could not take the baby because it had silver hair and purple eyes, so he gave the baby to Ashara and she headed for Essos.

[The guy from the Vale]

Robert Baratheon is Jon's father. He drunkenly raped Lyanna during a blackout and denied any knowledge of it the next morning as Cersei claimed he did with her. Rhaegar loved Lyanna and claimed the child was his, so the Kingsguard would protect the child. Aegon was still Rhaegar's heir. As Lyanna dies she tells Ned everything but makes Ned promise to tell no one. She wouldn't want her rapist to raise Jon.

That makes Jon Dany and Tyrion all children of rape whose mothers died delivering them (if Aerys raped Tryion's mother). The three heads of the dragon.

Jon doesn't have the Baratheon look at all, when it's dominance is a major plot point of AGoT. Also, it would be very notable if Robert had access to Lyanna at any point during the rebellion...

[alienarea]

Oh well.

I tried to argue this last week.

About what Lyanna asked Ned to promise, for example:

When she was dying she realized that a lot of people in Westeros, including her father and her elder brother, died because they assumed she had been kidnapped, while she went with Rhaegar willingly. "Promise me Ned, don't tell anyone that I went with Rhaegar willingly." Or she was ashamed because Robert loved her so much that he started a rebellion. "Promise me, Ned, don't tell Robert that I loved Rhaegar".

I could come up with more, but it won't help until GRRM writes it down one way or the other.

Please keep in mind that Ned is dreaming on drugs when the Tower of Joy showdown is described to us.

For what it's worth, Howland Reed could turn up in TWoW and tell us something different.

Also this:

IMHO neither Ned nor Lyanna could be sure that Jon Snow wouldn't look very Targaryen five years down the road, so it might have been safer to place the baby with Howland Reed.

Ned comes to Winterfell with Lyanna's bones and a baby boy. Hm? Business as usual.

Ned could have picked up Jon anywhere.

Oh well.

[ejhawman]

Only theory that makes sense to me is Lyanna went willingly. That would mean the Starks were wrong in their demand for Rhaegar's head, though they could have more politely asked Aerys to discipline his son. Without the confrontation at KL, Aerys gives no order for Ned's and Robert's heads and there is no war. So the deep dark secret that Ned carried was that the whole war was unnecessary.

Still weak to me. Personally, I subscribe to R+L=J. We might find out before the end of TWOW.

[SIrDuncan the Tall]

(R+J=young griff)

It ties in with the idea that Septa Lemore is really Ashara Dayne. Eddard could not take the baby because it had silver hair and purple eyes, so he gave the baby to Ashara and she headed for Essos.

Leaves a lot of questions, Then are are you saying Jon is Ned and Ashara kid?What did Ned promise? To name a few.

[otherbeef]

Leaves a lot of questions, Then are are you saying Jon is Ned and Ashara kid?What did Ned promise? To name a few.

well Jon could very well be Ned or Brandon's kid by Ashara and i suppose Lyanna could ask Ned to promise to keep her baby (in this case young griff) safe. could also make sense that Varys/JonCon would just say he was Aegon, as his death had ambiguity and nobody knew about Rhaegars second son.

having said that, R+L=J is more plausible for sure.

[SIrDuncan the Tall]

Only theory that makes sense to me is Lyanna went willingly. That would mean the Starks were wrong in their demand for Rhaegar's head, though they could have more politely asked Aerys to discipline his son. Without the confrontation at KL, Aerys gives no order for Ned's and Robert's heads and there is no war. So the deep dark secret that Ned carried was that the whole war was unnecessary.

Still weak to me. Personally, I subscribe to R+L=J. We might find out before the end of TWOW.

I believe she went willingly and R+L=J and that Ned realizes that the rebellions ralling call was based on misjudgment by Brandon.

The chain of events was started by Brandon rash judgment call to ride south not knowing the facts. If she was taken or went freely. Believing in her Honor He fiquare she never go freely.

Resulted in Rikard standing by his son, and amd John Arryn standing Ned.

Meanwhile, maybe Benjen, knew of his sitter love for Rhaegar. Either promise or love didn't want to say anything. Maybe joined the nights watch out of guilt after holding the winterfell through the rebellion

[SIrDuncan the Tall]

well Jon could very well be Ned or Brandon's kid by Ashara and i suppose Lyanna could ask Ned to promise to keep her baby (in this case young griff) safe. could also make sense that Varys/JonCon would just say he was Aegon, as his death had ambiguity and nobody knew about Rhaegars second son.

having said that, R+L=J is more plausible for sure.

I also believe in the RL=J theory. Was asking Ruby Corvette who brought up young griff theory. If r+L = young griff then what about Jon. If Jon's mother is Ashara then how long where they together in Dorne. She gives birth to Ned's bastard then take Lyannas kid "young griff" to esso. Because we know Ned ends up with a newborn around or after TofJ.

Just wanted little more info on that swap theory

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Leaves a lot of questions, Then are are you saying Jon is Ned and Ashara kid?What did Ned promise? To name a few.

What the Tower of Joy sequence tells us is that Lyanna probably had a baby, Rhaegar was probably the father, Eddard took it to Starfall, Ashara disappeared in mysterious circumstances, and Eddard went back to Winterfell.

R + L = J explains all of this except what happened to Ashara. R + L = Young Griff/Ashara = Septa Lemore explains all of these things.

So the promise would be "Ned, protect my son from Robert."

"Okay, I will take him to Winterfell and claim he is mine."

"No, you can't do that. He has silver hair and purple eyes. Take him to the Daynes and get Ashara to take him far away. Promise me, Ned."

[otherbeef]

What the Tower of Joy sequence tells us is that Lyanna probably had a baby, Rhaegar was probably the father, Eddard took it to Starfall, Ashara disappeared in mysterious circumstances, and Eddard went back to Winterfell.

R + L = J explains all of this except what happened to Ashara. R + L = Young Griff/Ashara = Septa Lemore explains all of these things.

So the promise would be "Ned, protect my son from Robert."

"Okay, I will take him to Winterfell and claim he is mine."

"No, you can't do that. He has silver hair and purple eyes. Take him to the Daynes and get Ashara to take him far away. Promise me, Ned."

the problem with this is that "Aegon/Young Griff" is a full year older than Jon

[Ruby Chevrolet]

the problem with this is that "Aegon/Young Griff" is a full year older than Jon

The real Aegon would be a year older than Jon Snow. According to Tyrion, Young Griff looks about 15 or 16, which is the same age or younger than Jon Snow.

[SIrDuncan the Tall]

The real Aegon would be a year older than Jon Snow. According to Tyrion, Young Griff looks about 15 or 16, which is the same age or younger than Jon Snow.

Ok, so saying that is theory is correct. Ned was in Starfall for at least 9 months after TofJ, then Ashara gave up her newborn child to take lyannas and Rheagars kid to Essos. Maybe he was there that long I just don't know why Ashara would voluntarily give up her child and take a different kid to essos. Why not take both kids that way Ned didn't bring bastard home to his wife, I enjoyed your outside of the box thinking though.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Ok, so saying that is theory is correct. Ned was in Starfall for at least 9 months after TofJ, then Ashara gave up her newborn child to take lyannas and Rheagars kid to Essos. Maybe he was there that long I just don't know why Ashara would voluntarily give up her child and take a different kid to essos. Why not take both kids that way Ned didn't bring bastard home to his wife, I enjoyed your outside of the box thinking though.

Thanks.

I think you are right that Eddard did not spend 9 months in Starfall after the end of the Rebellion. So if Ashara is Jon's mother, Ashara and Eddard had to meet and conceive Jon about 9 months or so before the Tower of Joy fight. This is possible, since Mr Martin has said that Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfell during the rebellion. Also, we know Catelyn Stark went all the way from Riverrun to Storm's End and back during the War of 5 kings, so there is no reason to think Ashara did not get as far as Harrenhall or wherever Eddard was camped out at the right time for them to meet.

As for why Ashara would give up Jon to look after Griff, Delena Florent gave up Edric Storm so he would be raised at Storm's End -- by his uncle. Maybe Ashara made Eddard promise to raise Jon himself, which is a better deal than even a king's bastard would get?

[binga]

I've always wondered if Aerys was the father. Lets get Maury on the case.

[Onna Lewyys]

Ashara disappeared in mysterious circumstances

Didn't she commit suicide by jumping off a tower?

[Morienthar]

Didn't she commit suicide by jumping off a tower?

No Body.

[Dany Girl]

Didn't she commit suicide by jumping off a tower?

body was never found. Leads people to think she's still alive in hiding.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Two questions I actually don't know the answer to:

1. Where did Rhaegar abduct Lyanna from?

2. Are we certain that Ned kept his promise? Could it be that he failed to keep his promise and that's why he continues to have nightmares about it after all these years?

[Morienthar]

Two questions I actually don't know the answer to:

1. Where did Rhaegar abduct Lyanna from?

2. Are we certain that Ned kept his promise? Could it be that he failed to keep his promise and that's why he continues to have nightmares about it after all these years?

1.It's either Riverrun or on the road to Riverrun.

2.We'd have to know what the promise was for that.