Jump to content

R+L=J Alternatives that also Explain Tower of Joy Events


BondJamesBond

Recommended Posts

He thinks about Lyanna's death because he fought a war and then killed 3 men he admired to rescue her only to have her die in his arms. Then he had to carry her bones all the way across a continent and bury them under his house.

I don't know why he does not think about Ashara (that we see in his chapters). I don't know why he doesn't think about his mother, either, but it does not mean both women weren't important to him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He thinks about Lyanna's death because he fought a war and then killed 3 men he admired to rescue her only to have her die in his arms. Then he had to carry her bones all the way across a continent and bury them under his house.

I don't know why he does not think about Ashara (that we see in his chapters). I don't know why he doesn't think about his mother, either, but it does not mean both women weren't important to him.

His mother is unrelated to the events of ToJ, whereas Ashara might be, and, most improtantly, unlike the mother, Ashara is also supposed to be plot-relevant. If she is plot-relevant, i.e. being Jon's mother or her and Ned being somehow complicit on fAegon, the connection between Ned and her should have been depicted somehow, and definitely not just by outsiders' gossip.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He thinks about Lyanna's death because he fought a war and then killed 3 men he admired to rescue her only to have her die in his arms. Then he had to carry her bones all the way across a continent and bury them under his house.

I don't know why he does not think about Ashara (that we see in his chapters). I don't know why he doesn't think about his mother, either, but it does not mean both women weren't important to him.

Also, he's on drugs. And the events happened 15 years ago. So he might not think logical and/or remember correctly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, he's on drugs. And the events happened 15 years ago. So he might not think logical and/or remember correctly.

Ned was on drugs the whole AGOT? Because he remembers ToJ way more often than just during the fever dream - which, BTW, is a recurring dream, and I don't think it recurs to him only when Ned has fever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where does Ned reference broken promises? I recall his thoughts on the promises he'd kept and the price he'd paid keeping them, but I don't recall broken promises.

On the other hand, if he did break promises, an obvious one would be his oath of loyalty to Robert Baratheon if R+L=J (legitimate) is true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ned was on drugs the whole AGOT? Because he remembers ToJ way more often than just during the fever dream - which, BTW, is a recurring dream, and I don't think it recurs to him only when Ned has fever.

There isn't any other way to explain his decisions. ;-)

Ok, he is not on drugs all of AGoT. Still it is dream, and the events happened 15 years ago.

I don't know if, what and how intense you dream, but I doubt it perfectly matches reality.

We cut GRRM a lot of slack for using the unreliable narrator technique (which might also be called sloppy cross-checking and editing), but events in dreams happened like this in reality matching 100 %?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where does Ned reference broken promises? I recall his thoughts on the promises he'd kept and the price he'd paid keeping them, but I don't recall broken promises.

On the other hand, if he did break promises, an obvious one would be his oath of loyalty to Robert Baratheon if R+L=J (legitimate) is true.

IRRC, it's after he is imprisoned and hallucinating dreams of blood and broken promises - and yeah, I also think that these were the promises to Robert.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There isn't any other way to explain his decisions. ;-)

Ok, he is not on drugs all of AGoT. Still it is dream, and the events happened 15 years ago.

I don't know if, what and how intense you dream, but I doubt it perfectly matches reality.

We cut GRRM a lot of slack for using the unreliable narrator technique (which might also be called sloppy cross-checking and editing), but events in dreams happened like this in reality matching 100 %?

There were most certainly no wraiths and no storm of blue petals across the sky; the dialogue wasn't so condensed, either. The gist of it? The truth. And as I pointed out above: it's a dream he has dreamt before, the event is the same. Even as he is dreaming, he is comparing it with reality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His mother is unrelated to the events of ToJ, whereas Ashara might be, and, most improtantly, unlike the mother, Ashara is also supposed to be plot-relevant. If she is plot-relevant, i.e. being Jon's mother or her and Ned being somehow complicit on fAegon, the connection between Ned and her should have been depicted somehow, and definitely not just by outsiders' gossip.

If Ashara is not plot-relevant, why is she mentioned repeatedly throughout throughout the books as Eddard's lover?

The mystery surrounding what happened to Ashara and why is bound up in the Harrenhal tourney and in the Tower of Joy. I don't think R+L=J can explain her involvement (unless Lyanna had twins, I guess).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Ashara is not plot-relevant, why is she mentioned repeatedly throughout throughout the books as Eddard's lover?

The mystery surrounding what happened to Ashara and why is bound up in the Harrenhal tourney and in the Tower of Joy. I don't think R+L=J can explain her involvement (unless Lyanna had twins, I guess).

For the same reason as the fisherman's daughter? Or does it mean that the fisherman's daughter is also Jon's mother, because she is mentioned as such?

Ashara gets some mentions because she probably is, to some extent, involved, but not in those main roles you suggest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alright, I'll bite and go down this road again. At least for presenting the theory...

1. Why were the KG at the ToJ? It's simple, so simple that GRRM has answered this point blank. They were there because Rhaegar ordered them to. Even if they didn't like the orders, they had to be there because Rhaegar ordered it.

So why did Rhaegar order it? Well, let's jump into Rhaegar's mind. Rhaegar believes that Aegon is the Prince Who Was Promised. He believes Aegon is destined to survive and become a champion and lead Westeros in the fight against the others. By extension, Rhaegar assumes that he is going to win the Battle of the Trident, defend King's Landing, and Aegon will be safe. Lyanna and the third head of the dragon, the child in Lyanna's womb, are not so safe. Robert or Ned might try and rescue her. The KG are there to prevent that.

2. What did Lyanna make Ned promise? Well, from Lyanna's perspective, running off with Rhaegar led to the events that resulted in her parents death. It led to a war that ended in Rhaegar's death. I posit that she feels a deep guilt over that. One of the promises was that she was forgiven for it. Another that her bones be taken back to the north and buried with her family (Which would explain what Lyanna is doing buried with the Kings of Winter and Lords of Winterfell, right? Or are other Starks buried down there as well?) She also made him promise not to reveal what she had done.

So, fine. Why is it a secret? The answer to that is in the reread of Ned's GoT chapters. A repeated theme through them is how unstable the realm is, how questionable the loyalty of the lords, and how many people would flock to the dragon banner. Remember, many people see Robert's Rebellion as a romantic tale of Robert fighting for his true love. If the causus belli of the war, Lyanna's kidnapping, proved false, it would undermine the justification for the rebellion, and give the Targaeryan supporters more grounds for plotting the return of Viserys and Dany.

Then what is this price that Ned has had to pay to keep it? The price is the terrible weight of this guilty secret. That so many people, including his father and brother, died for nothing.

3. But wait, you admitted Lyanna was pregnant. So what happened to the baby if it isn't Jon? That's a good question. Right now, the answer is that we don't have enough info. There are some possibilities, though:

A: Jon is Ashara's baby, either from Ned or Brandon, and Lyanna's baby was stillborn. Ned took him, and in her grief, she killed herself. This is a terrible, shameful memory for Ned, which is why he refuses to talk about Jon's mother, reacting angrily when anyone ever brings it up. He later switched stories with Lyanna, to make it seem like Ashara had the stillborn and came up with the Wylla story to explain Jon, to help cover his grief and shame. This is probably the weaker option, as it seems a little harsh for Ned, though it's possible that this was a formative moment for him that shaped the hyper-honorable person he became later in life.

B: Jon is Ashara's baby, and (f)Aegon is Lyanna's child. Septa Lemore is Ashara. Ned gave Ashara Lyanna's baby and took Ashara's child, sending Ashara across the narrow sea. This mirrors the same decision that Jon will later have to make with Dalla and Gilly and provides some symmetry between Jon and Ned. This would also add another part to Ned's promise to Lyanna from earlier, to protect her child.

So why doesn't Ned ever think about this? Because he's buried the guilt deeply, and also because he's moved on into a new life with Cat. One key point I want to bring up here is Ned's reaction to questions about Jon's mother. He reacts angrily. When Cat asks him about it, she recollects that it "was the only time Ned ever scared her." When Robert asks, Ned again responds "angrily." If Ned's 14 year lie was to protect Jon from Robert, don't you think he'd be anxious, or worried? But no, when asked, Ned gets angry. This suggests to me that it's an unpleasant, perhaps shameful thing that he doesn't like to think or talk about.

Put it all together, and what do you have? Ned goes to the tower of Joy to rescue Lyanna. The KG are there, having been ordered to prevent that. They refuse to bend the knee, preferring to follow the last order of their prince, and die. Lyanna, feeling guilt over her role in the deaths of Rickard, Brandon, and now Rhaegar, begs Ned to forgive her, to return her to Winterfell, and to keep her shame secret. Maybe she has a stillborn daughter (which would fit with Rhaegar's naming his children after Aegon and his sisters, as well as with the Ashara story) or maybe there is a son, (f)Aegon. If there is a son, Ned swears to protect him, and sends him across the narrow sea.

After all, what's going to keep a secret better, and attract less attention; the honorable Ned Stark fathering a bastard, or having a child no one knows exist disappear across the narrow sea, far from Robert and his vengeance?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After all, what's going to keep a secret better, and attract less attention; the honorable Ned Stark fathering a bastard, or having a child no one knows exist disappear across the narrow sea, far from Robert and his vengeance?

THe rest of your theorising has been discussed to the death, but just one thing: under this scenario, what is the price that Ned paid to keep his promises to Lyanna and why does it keep haunting him? And Apple Martini's test question: what's so supersecret about Ashara being Jon's mother, if everyone believes that Ashara is dead?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

THe rest of your theorising has been discussed to the death, but just one thing: under this scenario, what is the price that Ned paid to keep his promises to Lyanna and why does it keep haunting him? And Apple Martini's test question: what's so supersecret about Ashara being Jon's mother, if everyone believes that Ashara is dead?

I added that in a second ago. Here it is:

Then what is this price that Ned has had to pay to keep it? The price is the terrible weight of this guilty secret. That so many people, including his father and brother, died for nothing.

Also, it's not that Ashara being the mother is super secret. It's that he feels so guilty about his/Brandon's role in her death/dishonoring that he refuses to talk about it, or even think of it.

Alternatively, if Ashara is Septa Lemore and (f)Aegon is Lyanna's son, than refusing to talk about her is a way of protecting that secret.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I added that in a second ago. Here it is:

Then what is this price that Ned has had to pay to keep it? The price is the terrible weight of this guilty secret. That so many people, including his father and brother, died for nothing.

Also, it's not that Ashara being the mother is super secret. It's that he feels so guilty about his/Brandon's role in her death/dishonoring that he refuses to talk about it, or even think of it.

Alternatively, if Ashara is Septa Lemore and (f)Aegon is Lyanna's son, than refusing to talk about her is a way of protecting that secret.

Nope. Merely shutting up about something that, BTW, no-one suspects or investigates, is not paying a price. Paying a price means that you do something, or give up something, to keep it.

As for Ned feeling guilty - what in the books made you think Ned that kind of man who cannot own his mistake? - Brandon can be left out because he died long before Jon was conceived, so it would have been solely Ned getting angry that his own fault might be exposed. Does this really sound like Ned to you? The guy who was willing to take up another's mistake on him?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope. Merely shutting up about something that, BTW, no-one suspects or investigates, is not paying a price. Paying a price means that you do something, or give up something, to keep it.

As for Ned feeling guilty - what in the books made you think Ned that kind of man who cannot own his mistake? - Brandon can be left out because he died long before Jon was conceived, so it would have been solely Ned getting angry that his own fault might be exposed. Does this really sound like Ned to you? The guy who was willing to take up another's mistake on him?

I'm going to disagree. It would be like holding onto the secret that the US really was responsible for 9/11, or that the US knew about the pearl harbor attack in advance and did nothing to stop it. Even if you weren't responsible for either of those, simply holding onto the secret would be a terrible burden.

It's not that Ned is angry at his own fault being exposed, rather, it is Ned getting angry at being reminded of his own failure and guilt. It's not his image that he's concerned with, it's his own self-respect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The price he is paying is (1) he can't ever let his son meet his mother, (2) he is committing treason by helping Young Griff escape and (3) he is sending the woman he loves into exile.

Ashara's identity is a secret because if Jon ever goes looking for her the whole thing could be exposed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going to disagree. It would be like holding onto the secret that the US really was responsible for 9/11, or that the US knew about the pearl harbor attack in advance and did nothing to stop it. Even if you weren't responsible for either of those, simply holding onto the secret would be a terrible burden.

I didn't say that the secret wouldn't be a burden. I said that it si not the same as paying a price.

It's not that Ned is angry at his own fault being exposed, rather, it is Ned getting angry at being reminded of his own failure and guilt. It's not his image that he's concerned with, it's his own self-respect.

That in no way addresses the point I made: it's not like Ned to react like that to the one who had every right to hold him responsible.

The price he is paying is (1) he can't ever let his son meet his mother, (2) he is committing treason by helping Young Griff escape and (3) he is sending the woman he loves into exile.

Ashara's identity is a secret because if Jon ever goes looking for her the whole thing could be exposed.

Other issues aside, 2) and 3) sound reasonable, but your last sentence sort of buried it: why should Jon ever cross the whole continent to go looking for a dead woman? No-one in Westeros ever suspected that she might live (and I don't think so, either, as purple eyes are difficult to overlook, especially when travelling in the company of a purple-eyed kid).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't say that the secret wouldn't be a burden. I said that it si not the same as paying a price.

That in no way addresses the point I made: it's not like Ned to react like that to the one who had every right to hold him responsible.

Other issues aside, 2) and 3) sound reasonable, but your last sentence sort of buried it: why should Jon ever cross the whole continent to go looking for a dead woman? No-one in Westeros ever suspected that she might live (and I don't think so, either, as purple eyes are difficult to overlook, especially when travelling in the company of a purple-eyed kid).

If Eddard is covering up the fact that Ashara faked her own death, it would be hard to discuss her with Jon. He would have to decide whether to confide the truth to Jon (your mother is Ashara Dayne, she is alive but in hiding, and you can never go and see her) or to tell Jon who his mother is but lie about her being dead. If he told Jon the whole truth, Jon would go looking for her. If he told Jon about Ashara but lied about her being dead, that's worse than not telling him anything. And he'd have to explain why she supposedly committed suicide, which would be very awkward. And I still think Jon would head to Starfall asking questions about what his mother was like and why she died.

So it would be better to do what Eddard did -- forbid anyone in Winterfell from mentioning Ashara's name and say nothing to Jon about his mother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a RL=J believer, but the RL=YG theory is interesting, though I also like the theory that YG is the cheese monger's son. Let me add another alternative theory that I've been thinking about for a while now, granted it's a little crackpot:

What about R+L=Meera Reed? she is the same age as Jon, she looks nothing like Jojen Reed and displays some Lyanna qualities in general, plus if Howland Reed is with Ned Stark during the ToJ timeframe, it seems that she must have been parented in the south... seems unlikey that Howland Reed was nailing chicks and making bastards, Cronnogman that he is.

Many of the same reasons that RL=YG work could apply to why RL=MR works as well. Either way, I think RL=J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...