R+L=J Alternatives that also Explain Tower of Joy Events

[Ygrain]

If Eddard is covering up the fact that Ashara faked her own death, it would be hard to discuss her with Jon. He would have to decide whether to confide the truth to Jon (your mother is Ashara Dayne, she is alive but in hiding, and you can never go and see her) or to tell Jon who his mother is but lie about her being dead. If he told Jon the whole truth, Jon would go looking for her. If he told Jon about Ashara but lied about her being dead, that's worse than not telling him anything. And he'd have to explain why she supposedly committed suicide, which would be very awkward. And I still think Jon would head to Starfall asking questions about what his mother was like and why she died.

So it would be better to do what Eddard did -- forbid anyone in Winterfell from mentioning Ashara's name and say nothing to Jon about his mother.

Eh... this is not a Holywood movie about an adopted kid with identity issues. Ned killed Ashara's brother and everyone knows it, it's pretty much a reason for suicide. Taking Jon with him if the mother is presumably dead makes sense and no-one would further question this. What troubles Jon - and Cat - is not knowing; the knowledge would have made their lives much easier.

BTW, there is one thing that doesn't fit in your YG scenario: letting the heir on the loose, risking that someone will use him for the power struggle as is currently happening. If Jon is R+L, Ned is keeping him safe from Robert without threatening Robert's rule; if YG is R+L, Ned is undermining the kingdom - yet, not a single hint towards this loose cannon crosses his mind.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Eh... this is not a Holywood movie about an adopted kid with identity issues. Ned killed Ashara's brother and everyone knows it, it's pretty much a reason for suicide. Taking Jon with him if the mother is presumably dead makes sense and no-one would further question this. What troubles Jon - and Cat - is not knowing; the knowledge would have made their lives much easier.

So you think Eddard would have been honest with Jon about who the mother was but lied to Jon about her being alive?

And that Jon would not have left Winterfell to meet the other side of his family?

I think that is unlikely.

BTW, there is one thing that doesn't fit in your YG scenario: letting the heir on the loose, risking that someone will use him for the power struggle as is currently happening. If Jon is R+L, Ned is keeping him safe from Robert without threatening Robert's rule; if YG is R+L, Ned is undermining the kingdom - yet, not a single hint towards this loose cannon crosses his mind.

You mean, other than the fact that when he was Hand, Eddard advocates exactly this approach to the "threat" posed by Khal Drogo and his Targaryens?

[Ygrain]

So you think Eddard would have been honest with Jon about who the mother was but lied to Jon about her being alive?

And that Jon would not have left Winterfell to meet the other side of his family?

I think that is unlikely.

You mean, other than the fact that when he was Hand, Eddard advocates exactly this approach to the "threat" posed by Khal Drogo and his Targaryens?

Yes, i think that if Ned did have a thing going with Ashara, he would have admitted it. And Jon definitely wouldn't have gone to see the Daynes - he's a bastard, a stain on Ashara's honour. Not a good idea to present himself to the offended family (sho, on the other hand, seems trangely unoffended, so one more reason to think that it wasn't Ned who dishonoured Ashara and that his feelings for her, if he did develop any outside the first-sight attraction, were unrequited).

YG's situation is different - Viserys was apparently unstable and hardly inspiring any followers, Dany was a little girl. YG is supposedly the son of the idolized Rhaegar, and, what makes the difference, he has been actively groomed to take over the throne. This is something Ned would never have agreed to.

[enoofu]

Ned does lie

Here is two quotes from book 1

“We all lie,” her father said. “Or did you truly think I’d believe that Nymeria ran off?”

“It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was … not without honor.”

Ned has been not truthful about the whole affair just that the reader doesn't know what is true yet.

"Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty", before the Tower of Joy and he was angry. So what ever happens there didn't change Ned view on not killing off the line.

Can the reader be certain that Lyanna is dead after reading the above?

Ashara Danye supposedly died right after and no body was found

Was Lyanna body Ashara Danye's, to cover up Lyanna's dealth ?

Also Howland Reed liked Lyanna and also has a child from his wife at the same time period with a name that is similar called Lyana

[Ygrain]

Was Lyanna body Ashara Danye's, to cover up Lyanna's dealth ?

And what exactly are you arguing here? That Ned lies to himself in his memories, when he remembers the moment Lyanna died, holding his hand, and he was holding her body afterwards?

[tydides]

no, I'm thinking more of a Theon/ Stark situation. We (Robert and company) keep your family (Elia &kids) and you (Dorne) just sit there and don't fight back or we kill them.

I probable situation, discounting Tywin Lannister.

When I read the TOJ and other R+L=J ned chapters for the first time, I didn't have the analytical skills sufficient to come to any conclusions. I usually don't read to deeply into these things, expecting the author to do it in their own time. I think that this is the case for most people who are not aware of the theory, and I honestly don't think there are any other very good explanations

[Maxpey]

When I first joined the forum last May, I did not believe R + L = J (I was delusional at the time :drool: ).

I came up with a convoluted theory whereby N + A = J, while R + L = (f)Aegon.

Ned and Ashara met at Harrenhal and fell in love. However, Ashara was disgraced there and chose to become a Septon. She was at the Stoney Sept when the Battle of the Bells occurred, and after it was over she and Ned met and hooked up. They part and Ashara subsequently finds out that she is pregnant as a result and leaves the Septa service and returns to Starfall.

Ashara kept in touch with her brother, Ser Arthur, so he knew about R + L and the TOJ. She also found out that Ned was looking for Lyanna, so she got word to him about the TOJ after Ned relieved the siege of Dragonstone. Then the events at the TOJ occur. Lyanna makes Ned promise to protect her son with Rhaegar from Robert, except her son is not Jon, but (f)Aegon. He has the "Targ" look about him. Purple eyes and silver hair. Ned then travels to Starfall w/Wylla and (f)Aegon in tow to return Dawn to Ashara.

Once there he finds out that Ashara has given birth to his son, Jon Snow, who has the traditional Stark features (dark hair and grey eyes).

Ned and Ashara realize that Ned cannot take (f)Aegon back to Winterfell with him because he has the Targ features. Because Ned promised Lyanna he would protect her son from Robert, he asks Ashara to hide (f)Aegon while he agrees to take Jon back with him to Winterfell. Ashara then fakes her suicide and disappears with (f)Aegon. She then contacts Varys, whom she knows from her time at KL, and they together concoct the scheme involving (f)Aegon, Jon Connington and the GC, with Ashara assuming the guise of Septa Lemore.

Ned arriving at Starfall with a child and Wylla explains the rumors that Wylla and Ashara were Jon's mother. The rumor that Ashara committed suicide after giving birth to a supposedly stillborn daughter would explain both her disappearance and the disappearance of the child she was carrying (she was obviously pregnant at Starfall)

Ned trusting Ashara to raise Lyanna's son after he promised her that he would explains why Ned would be haunted by lies for 14 years. Not only did he betray Robert, his King and best friend by hiding (f)Aegon, he feels he betrayed Lyanna by leaving him to be cared for by Ashara.

Also, having the brief fling with Ashara that resulted in Jon would also explain why Ned feels he betrayed Cat.

Finally, keeping the identity of Jon's mother a secret was vital to Ned. He was afraid that if he told anyone, even Jon and Cat, that Ashara was Jon's mother, Robert would find out and ask Ned why he lied and said Wylla was Jon's mother. Ned didn't want to open this door because he was deathly afraid that Robert would eventually discover what happened at the TOJ and (f)Aegon, which would put his entire family in danger. As such, Ned could never tell anyone, not even Jon or Cat, that Jon's mother was Ashara.

Crackpot it is, but it just goes to show how much in denial I was about R + L = J when I first joined the forum.

I have since come to accept the truth that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna :bowdown: (although I still have the slightest bit of hope in my heart that N + A = J! ;) )

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't thnk that there is one.

[BondJamesBond]

When I first joined the forum last May, I did not believe R + L = J (I was delusional at the time :drool: ).

I came up with a convoluted theory whereby N + A = J, while R + L = (f)Aegon.

Ned and Ashara met at Harrenhal and fell in love. However, Ashara was disgraced there and chose to become a Septon. She was at the Stoney Sept when the Battle of the Bells occurred, and after it was over she and Ned met and hooked up. They part and Ashara subsequently finds out that she is pregnant as a result and leaves the Septa service and returns to Starfall.

Ashara kept in touch with her brother, Ser Arthur, so he knew about R + L and the TOJ. She also found out that Ned was looking for Lyanna, so she got word to him about the TOJ after Ned relieved the siege of Dragonstone. Then the events at the TOJ occur. Lyanna makes Ned promise to protect her son with Rhaegar from Robert, except her son is not Jon, but (f)Aegon. He has the "Targ" look about him. Purple eyes and silver hair. Ned then travels to Starfall w/Wylla and (f)Aegon in tow to return Dawn to Ashara.

Once there he finds out that Ashara has given birth to his son, Jon Snow, who has the traditional Stark features (dark hair and grey eyes).

Ned and Ashara realize that Ned cannot take (f)Aegon back to Winterfell with him because he has the Targ features. Because Ned promised Lyanna he would protect her son from Robert, he asks Ashara to hide (f)Aegon while he agrees to take Jon back with him to Winterfell. Ashara then fakes her suicide and disappears with (f)Aegon. She then contacts Varys, whom she knows from her time at KL, and they together concoct the scheme involving (f)Aegon, Jon Connington and the GC, with Ashara assuming the guise of Septa Lemore.

Ned arriving at Starfall with a child and Wylla explains the rumors that Wylla and Ashara were Jon's mother. The rumor that Ashara committed suicide after giving birth to a supposedly stillborn daughter would explain both her disappearance and the disappearance of the child she was carrying (she was obviously pregnant at Starfall)

Ned trusting Ashara to raise Lyanna's son after he promised her that he would explains why Ned would be haunted by lies for 14 years. Not only did he betray Robert, his King and best friend by hiding (f)Aegon, he feels he betrayed Lyanna by leaving him to be cared for by Ashara.

Also, having the brief fling with Ashara that resulted in Jon would also explain why Ned feels he betrayed Cat.

Finally, keeping the identity of Jon's mother a secret was vital to Ned. He was afraid that if he told anyone, even Jon and Cat, that Ashara was Jon's mother, Robert would find out and ask Ned why he lied and said Wylla was Jon's mother. Ned didn't want to open this door because he was deathly afraid that Robert would eventually discover what happened at the TOJ and (f)Aegon, which would put his entire family in danger. As such, Ned could never tell anyone, not even Jon or Cat, that Jon's mother was Ashara.

Crackpot it is, but it just goes to show how much in denial I was about R + L = J when I first joined the forum.

I have since come to accept the truth that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna :bowdown: (although I still have the slightest bit of hope in my heart that N + A = J! ;) )

Great responses to the thread!

I nominate the above as the most credible alternative, but, still, no. R+J=L has withstood careful scrutiny and remains intact.

[Balerion06]

Ned killed Lyanna.

Wrecked by the soul-crushing guilt and pain that her love affair had led to the deaths of thousands, including her father, brother and lover, and the fact that she was slowly dying of a fever anyway, Lyanna made Ned promise to give her a quick death. Ned complied (perhaps because Lyanna made him promise her something before telling him exactly what she wanted), thus explaining "the bed of blood" and Ned's incredible guilt over what happened.

This crackpot at the very least avoids the groan-inducing contrivance of Ned arriving at the TOJ just in time for Lyanna to conveniently die in his arms.

[BondJamesBond]

Ned killed Lyanna.

Wrecked by the soul-crushing guilt and pain that her love affair had led to the deaths of thousands, including her father, brother and lover, and the fact that she was slowly dying of a fever anyway, Lyanna made Ned promise to give her a quick death. Ned complied (perhaps because Lyanna made him promise her something before telling him exactly what she wanted), thus explaining "the bed of blood" and Ned's incredible guilt over what happened.

This crackpot at the very least avoids the groan-inducing contrivance of Ned arriving at the TOJ just in time for Lyanna to conveniently die in his arms.

Haha. No way, though. It doesn't explain why he remembers the promise just when Robert is talking about killing all the remaining targaryens (of which Jon is one).

[Balerion06]

Haha. No way, though. It doesn't explain why he remembers the promise just when Robert is talking about killing all the remaining targaryens (of which Jon is one).

Because he remembers that the price for killing all the Targaryens the first time around was killing his sister..... :P

[Maxpey]

Great responses to the thread!

I nominate the above as the most credible alternative, but, still, no. R+J=L has withstood careful scrutiny and remains intact.

:agree:

[Aegon Spengler]

I kinda like the baby switching idea because of the parallels with Jon in ADWD. But it's hard for me to imagine anyone but Lyanna bein Jon's mom. Crackpot: any chance Robert is Jon's father an Ned's promise to Lyanna is to hide this fact and keep him far away from Robert? All references to Jon's having kings blood would still be right on, and the blue flower in the wall of ice reference would still make sense

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Haha. No way, though. It doesn't explain why he remembers the promise just when Robert is talking about killing all the remaining targaryens (of which Jon is one).

That's not true. He also remembers the promise when Sansa is pleading for Lady's life and when Robert makes him promise to eat the boar at his funeral feast.

[JonNonRegis]

If you want to construct a reasonable alternative, then you should probably change as little as possible from R+L=J. Just a few details here and there.

For instance, start with the kidnapping variation of R+L=J. In this one, Lyanna doesn't want to be at the ToJ at all. She was brought there a year before the Sack against her will.

In this scenario, the Kingsguard are aware that at the time of kidnapping, Lyanna doesn't look pregnant. They also know that by the time Ned shows up, she has given birth. They conclude very sensibly that Rhaegar must be the father and the boy must be king.

So they stay there, and fight Ned and his companions, sincerely believing that Jon is Rhaegar's son. But is he?

We know so little about this time period. We don't even know if Rhaegar was there the entire time, all those months between the abduction and being summoned to King's Landing to deal with Robert's Rebellion. Imagine he wasn't.

Now, the KG probably worked in shifts, so there was never a time they were all asleep. Probably two were awake at any given time... but we just don't know if that was always true.

Each of them might have had short periods of solitary access to Lyanna on an ongoing basis. It is possible a relationship of sorts developed within a few months after the abduction.

The KG are supposed to be chaste, of course, but there are numerous instances in which they aren't. (Jaime Lannister and Arys Oakheart come to mind immediately.)

If one of them were secretly Jon's father, he would hardly be likely to admit it. He might not even know for sure, given Rhaegar's activity in this department. So I can't picture him announcing, when Ned showed up, "It occurs to me I might be the father of your nephew, so I'm going to sit out this fight." He would act just like the other two, both of whom seriously believed Rhaegar to be the only possible father.

Lyanna, too, might not know for sure. But even if she did it would hardly matter. Robert would still think Rhaegar was her baby's father; the baby would still be killed; so she would still ask Ned to do the same things, just like in the R+L=J theory.

[Pootie Tang]

I love how everything becomes more underdog and thus more believable when you replace 'Crackpot' with 'Alternative'.

[UVA]

I love how everything becomes more underdog and thus more believable when you replace 'Crackpot' with 'Alternative'.

Oh Pootie Tang truer words were never spoken. :bowdown:

[ser naes yennet]

If you want to construct a reasonable alternative, then you should probably change as little as possible from R+L=J. Just a few details here and there.

For instance, start with the kidnapping variation of R+L=J. In this one, Lyanna doesn't want to be at the ToJ at all. She was brought there a year before the Sack against her will.

In this scenario, the Kingsguard are aware that at the time of kidnapping, Lyanna doesn't look pregnant. They also know that by the time Ned shows up, she has given birth. They conclude very sensibly that Rhaegar must be the father and the boy must be king.

So they stay there, and fight Ned and his companions, sincerely believing that Jon is Rhaegar's son. But is he?

We know so little about this time period. We don't even know if Rhaegar was there the entire time, all those months between the abduction and being summoned to King's Landing to deal with Robert's Rebellion. Imagine he wasn't.

Now, the KG probably worked in shifts, so there was never a time they were all asleep. Probably two were awake at any given time... but we just don't know if that was always true.

Each of them might have had short periods of solitary access to Lyanna on an ongoing basis. It is possible a relationship of sorts developed within a few months after the abduction.

The KG are supposed to be chaste, of course, but there are numerous instances in which they aren't. (Jaime Lannister and Arys Oakheart come to mind immediately.)

If one of them were secretly Jon's father, he would hardly be likely to admit it. He might not even know for sure, given Rhaegar's activity in this department. So I can't picture him announcing, when Ned showed up, "It occurs to me I might be the father of your nephew, so I'm going to sit out this fight." He would act just like the other two, both of whom seriously believed Rhaegar to be the only possible father.

Lyanna, too, might not know for sure. But even if she did it would hardly matter. Robert would still think Rhaegar was her baby's father; the baby would still be killed; so she would still ask Ned to do the same things, just like in the R+L=J theory.

now this may be a technicality, but since Rhaegar was killed before Aerys, how would Rhaegar's line still be the heirs? Aerys was still alive when Rhaegar was killed, so Aerys is still the king, but wouldn't the heir be Viserys? he is the living and ruling king's next oldest son, so the heir, correct? and if i am wrong in this and the heir would still be following Rhaegar's line, then the heir would have been the baby Aegon, who was still alove when Rhaegar was killed and Aerys still alive.

[ser naes yennet]

i am pretty solidly in the R+L=J camp, but think a twist could be that Lyanna had twins. this type of birth is always more traumatic and can explain the 'bed of blood' and dying as a result since the ToJ didn't seem to be the best place to have a baby, much less 2. so i think that Lyanna could have had 2, and Ashara also gad a child, Ned's or Brandon's. so we have 3 kids, maybe Ned's promise was to keep both Lyanna's kid's safe, and since i can't think of any females around the right age, the options would be between Jon, Aegon (real or not), and possibly Edric Dayne. this could back up Ashara = Septa Lemore, and many baby swapping possibilities.

it is also possible that a baby swap occurred before Varys pulled his, so he switched a kid that was already switched. and with GRRM loving parallels, and Jon pulling off the switch at The Wall, these are all possible.

sorry if nothing really contributes to the topic, but maybe it will trigger someone else to connect the dots, i just have a bunch of pieces, but no where near a complete puzzle coming together.