R+L=J Alternatives that also Explain Tower of Joy Events

[sagaz]

According to Ned, Lyanna told him that she wanted to go home to Winterfell to be buried among her family.  This was one of her dying wishes, one we actually get told about from Ned himself.

 

*I will leave open the possibility that Ned made up this story of Lyanna wanting to be in the crypt with her brother and father to tell Robert specifically to explain her presence there.  I am sure that the things that are conjectured to be hidden in her crypt played a larger role in her placement there.

 

2) It is not a given that Jon is illegitimate either. The issue is very much up for debate so don't say that Jon is illegitimate like that is a fact.

 

And also, jon is a bastard out of wedlock, but considering rhaegar and all rhaegar's children died already, it is likely for KG to think he may be legitimized later by some way to be a heir. So he is very important even he is a great bastard. How come KG should forsake him even when viserys is indeed a new heir, not to mention there is also rhaegar's order? Jon can be another heir and he is the only possible candidate for rhaegar's heir. They would wait them to be able to travel and then take them somewhere to hide.

 

Re: legitimacy

Te very presence of Lyanna in the crypts hints that she isn't a regular Stark woman. Where are buried, the wives, (the mothers!) of the lords of Winterfell/kings of winter and/or their unmarried daughters?

The right to be there, the belonging, is a theme explored with several characters (Bran, Jon, even Theon). The only explanation of Lyanna being there comes from Bran telling Osha that his father "loved her so much". 

To me her presence in the crypts is a very elliptical explanation that she, somehow, had more rank than a Lord of Winterfell and that is only possible if she was a royal princess. Since Ned is the one that places her there, and considering the events (largely discussed here) that took place between Ned and the KG at the ToJ, the chances that Jon is legitimate are very high.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

I really don't get why this is causing such an uproar. I'm not disputing that it's not an indicator that she gave birth. The other phrases are about childbirth. But the assumption that she gave birth because you assume that the phrase can only mean what it means elsewhere here as it only means that elsewhere does become circular as then Lyanna's must mean the same thing to make it that the phrase only has one meaning. Lyanna's meaning the same thing supports the idea that the phrase only has one meaning. That's circular.

 

Instead what we actually have is 2 known uses of the phrase in one way, and an unknown use of the phrase in another. The unknown way does not have to mean what the other two mean. GRRM can make Lyanna's mean whatever he wants it to mean because he never explained it. It makes sense to apply the meaning from the two known phrases to figure out the unknown. But that doesn't mean it has to mean what the other two mean otherwise it's a circular argument as it then proves itself.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

 

 

 

Re: legitimacy

Te very presence of Lyanna in the crypts hints that she isn't a regular Stark woman. Where are buried, the wives, (the mothers!) of the lords of Winterfell/kings of winter and/or their unmarried daughters?

The right to be there, the belonging, is a theme explored with several characters (Bran, Jon, even Theon). The only explanation of Lyanna being there comes from Bran telling Osha that his father "loved her so much". 

To me her presence in the crypts is a very elliptical explanation that she, somehow, had more rank than a Lord of Winterfell and that is only possible if she was a royal princess. Since Ned is the one that places her there, and considering the events (largely discussed here) that took place between Ned and the KG at the ToJ, the chances that Jon is legitimate are very high.

 

Brandon, Lyanna's very own brother, and Artos Stark their great granduncle, both people who were never Lords of Winterfell have statues as well.

[sagaz]

 

Brandon, Lyanna's very own brother, and Artos Stark their great granduncle, both people who were never Lords of Winterfell have statues as well.

Maybe, but they aren't women.

[Mdoggy]

Hmmmmm....

 

What if Lyanna ran away because Robert could not wait until the wedding... and Jon was Robert's bastard not Rhegar's or maybe Lyanna did not know whose baby it was.... If she ran off with Rhegar after Robert took advantage of her then Jon might be either Rhegar's or Robert's... Not knowing which person's bastard Jon is could be very interesting. Is he a targ? Is he a stag? the world may never know. 

 

This would only work if Jon was not born when Ned came to the TOJ. He may have been already born and Lyanna was injured in the birth and slowly dying. 

 

I know its a little weird but it would be a cool cruel twist. 

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Maybe, but they aren't women.

 

Lyanna being buried there isn't unusual though

 

 

Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. "There are worse things than spiders and rats," he whispered. "This is where the dead walk." That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya's hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb's leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. "You stupid," she told him, "you scared the baby," but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.

 

Sansa and Arya both have tombs set aside for them. Lyanna would have as well.

 

As far as we know she's the only woman who got a statue though, but it doesn't have to mean anything special considering that there are at least two other known people who got statues who shouldn't have, and one of them got his statue from the very same person who decided to give Lyanna one.

[Ygrain]

Instead what we actually have is 2 known uses of the phrase in one way, and an unknown use of the phrase in another. The unknown way does not have to mean what the other two mean. GRRM can make Lyanna's mean whatever he wants it to mean because he never explained it. It makes sense to apply the meaning from the two known phrases to figure out the unknown. But that doesn't mean it has to mean what the other two mean otherwise it's a circular argument as it then proves itself.

That's kinda the point - those other two uses are left as a clue to what "bed of blood" means. And, asserting that it means the same what the two other mean is NOT circular argument. What you handwave as "circular argument" is assessment that the guessed meaning fits the context.

 

Hmmmmm....

 

What if Lyanna ran away because Robert could not wait until the wedding... and Jon was Robert's bastard not Rhegar's or maybe Lyanna did not know whose baby it was.... If she ran off with Rhegar after Robert took advantage of her then Jon might be either Rhegar's or Robert's... Not knowing which person's bastard Jon is could be very interesting. Is he a targ? Is he a stag? the world may never know. 

 

This would only work if Jon was not born when Ned came to the TOJ. He may have been already born and Lyanna was injured in the birth and slowly dying. 

 

I know its a little weird but it would be a cool cruel twist. 

There is no indication that Robert ever slept with Lyanna, or that she would have consented, or that she wouldn't have castrated Robert for that.

 

Furthermore, she was missing for the whole duration of the Rebellion (plus the time before it started), for about a year, and Jon was born only at around the Sack, so he couldn't have been conceived before.

[Consigliere]

I really don't get why this is causing such an uproar. I'm not disputing that it's not an indicator that she gave birth. The other phrases are about childbirth. But the assumption that she gave birth because you assume that the phrase can only mean what it means elsewhere here as it only means that elsewhere does become circular as then Lyanna's must mean the same thing to make it that the phrase only has one meaning. Lyanna's meaning the same thing supports the idea that the phrase only has one meaning. That's circular.
 
Instead what we actually have is 2 known uses of the phrase in one way, and an unknown use of the phrase in another. The unknown way does not have to mean what the other two mean. GRRM can make Lyanna's mean whatever he wants it to mean because he never explained it. It makes sense to apply the meaning from the two known phrases to figure out the unknown. But that doesn't mean it has to mean what the other two mean otherwise it's a circular argument as it then proves itself.

 
Just for the record, the "bed of blood" phrase is not the only reason people believe Lyanna gave birth. The fact is, thus far the author has only ever used the phrase to denote childbirth. And as you say: "It makes sense to apply the meaning from the two known phrases to figure out the unknown". It is just another piece in a mountain of evidence supporting R+L=J.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

 
Just for the record, the "bed of blood" phrase is not the only reason people believe Lyanna gave birth. The fact is, thus far the author has only ever used the phrase to denote childbirth. And as you say: "It makes sense to apply the meaning from the two known phrases to figure out the unknown". It is just another piece in a mountain of evidence supporting R+L=J.

 

Well as I mentioned here

 

Not that I doubt that Jon is Lyanna's son. But I base that on Ned saying that he keeps his vows, and he would have vowed himself to Catelyn Stark when he married her, but then he showed up back home after the war with a bastard, after he had found his sister dying after she had been having sex for a year with Rhaegar, and Ned refuses to talk about his bastard's mother when asked. Much more convincing argument that Jon is Lyanna's son than bed of blood.

 

I do believe that Lyanna gave birth as it's doesn't make sense for Ned to assert that he keeps his vows if he had broken the one that he made to Catelyn when he married her, and that if Ned keeps his vows but we know of one other Stark who was having sex during this period, then it makes sense that the child is that Starks.

 

I'm just saying that I don't agree with the bed of blood thing as I find it to be circular

[sagaz]

 

Lyanna being buried there isn't unusual though

 

 

Sansa and Arya both have tombs set aside for them. Lyanna would have as well.

 

As far as we know she's the only woman who got a statue though, but it doesn't have to mean anything special considering that there are at least two other known people who got statues who shouldn't have, and one of them got his statue from the very same person who decided to give Lyanna one.

according to the wiki, Brandon died after Rickard. Knowing that Ned thought of himself as the replacement -telling Catelyn that Brandon was the one raised to be Lord, father of queens, etc, and he wasn't- I can see why he would give him that treatment.

 

I don't read the text you quoted as you do. "their" is more likely referring to Robb's and whomever is recounting, not necessarily the girls having places. If this is a recounting from Arya, then I'm wrong, but if it's Bran, I'm still playing.

 

As Artos having a place, I'm lost. The wiki says he killed Raymun, who killed Willam "the lord". I don't have Stark lore knowledge but maybe Edwyle (father of Rickard) was a little boy when this happened and even if he was alive and well, Artos acted as Lord until he came of age, hence the statue? >>> pure speculation.

[Consigliere]

I'm just saying that I don't agree with the bed of blood thing as I find it to be circular

 

I disagree but we should just leave it at that since we both agree that Lyanna gave birth.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

according to the wiki, Brandon died after Rickard. Knowing that Ned thought of himself as the replacement -telling Catelyn that Brandon was the one raised to be Lord, father of queens, etc, and he wasn't- I can see why he would give him that treatment.

 

I didn't see anything in the wiki that says that Brandon died after Rickard, but we know that he didn't

 

 

Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun. His father had been forced to watch him die. He was the true heir, the eldest, born to rule.

 

Brandon died before Rickard did as Rickard watched him die. He was therefore never Lord of Winterfell

 

 

I don't read the text you quoted as you do. "their" is more likely referring to Robb's and whomever is recounting, not necessarily the girls having places. If this is a recounting from Arya, then I'm wrong, but if it's Bran, I'm still playing.

 

It's from Arya's POV so their means hers as well.

 

 

As Artos having a place, I'm lost. The wiki says he killed Raymun, who killed Willam "the lord". I don't have Stark lore knowledge but maybe Edwyle (father of Rickard) was a little boy when this happened and even if he was alive and well, Artos acted as Lord until he came of age, hence the statue? >>> pure speculation.

 

I don't think that really works. Even at 8 years old Bran was a full on Lord of Winterfell and acting as such. He had Rodrik and Luwin advising him, but he was still the lord.

[purple-eyes]

Maybe, but they aren't women.

I think you are over-stretching here. She clearly asked ned to bury her beside her father and Brandon. So he did. Rickard is in there, Brandon is there, so he put lyanna there to fulfill this promise.
He put a statue there to memorize her ( by the way, to provide the plots about Robb and Ned talking about lyanna in the tomb), not because he judged her as a late princess or queen mother of a dynasty he just rebelled and destroyed.
I am not saying it is not possible that they were married, but this is not a proof.
And I do not think they got married.

[sagaz]

The wiki says "Brandon was forced to watch as his father was cooked alive in his own armor." but you provided a quote from the books so... 

the quote it's from Arya, fair enough.

 

I still think is highly unusual for a female Stark to be there and it's a hint of... something

[purple-eyes]

The wiki says "Brandon was forced to watch as his father was cooked alive in his own armor." but you provided a quote from the books so... 
the quote it's from Arya, fair enough.
 
I still think is highly unusual for a female Stark to be there and it's a hint of... something

Ned just honored the wish of his dead sister. She wanted to be buried with Brandon and Rickard.
Then what else can ned do?
Put three of them somewhere else?
Or say "no sister. I can not bury you there since you are nor lord. Wait? You said you and rhaegar got married? Oh, then you were a princess. Ok, I can bury you there. "

[Sly Wren]

The wiki says "Brandon was forced to watch as his father was cooked alive in his own armor." but you provided a quote from the books so... 

the quote it's from Arya, fair enough.

 

I still think is highly unusual for a female Stark to be there and it's a hint of... something

The statues are unusual--for both Lyanna and Brandon.

 

And in novels where so much is a mystery, I agree--it looks like it could be a hint.

 

But I think this one goes back to the Faulkner quote Martin likes--the one about the drama of the human heart. Ned loved his father, brother, and sister. They all died in stupid, horrible ways far from home. Burying them all with statues--it's love. Love and respect and grief. 

[hallam]

i believe R+L=J but why would Rhaegar go to such extremes to protect his second son (Jon) and not his actual heir (Aegon)?

 

This is one of the reasons I think R+L=J is bogus.

 

Any theory involving Rhegar has a big motivation deficit and the only real way to close it that does not involve something completely new is the prophecy Rheagar was mad about and we haven't really heard yet.

 

If the prophecy says that the third child is in danger then it doesn't just explain the measures to protect Jon, it also explains why Rheagar and Elia might lie about their ability to have another child.

 

The evidence against R+E = J is very weak, much weaker than the major problems with R+J=L.

[Buried Treasure]

The motive to leave the KG with Lyanna is that she had no other guards. Three men can do a lot to protect a lone, pregnant women. When Rhaegar left Lyanna there were 4 other elite KG and thousands of other men to protect the rest of his family.

Although, hallam, if you are disputing R+L=J,then you are by default supporting the idea that Rhaegar left the three KG to guard a non-pregnant Lyanna. Nobody reasonable disputes that the four were at the tower together.

[hallam]

The motive to leave the KG with Lyanna is that she had no other guards. Three men can do a lot to protect a lone, pregnant women. When Rhaegar left Lyanna there were 4 other elite KG and thousands of other men to protect the rest of his family.

Although, hallam, if you are disputing R+L=J,then you are by default supporting the idea that Rhaegar left the three KG to guard a non-pregnant Lyanna. Nobody reasonable disputes that the four were at the tower together.

 

"Nobody reasonable" can believe that a bastard has a claim to the throne.

 

I don't dispute Lyanna being at the tower of joy, I note the fact that GRRM conveniently doesn't confirm it as fact, the fever dream is interrupted. 

 

If Lyanna is at the ToJ then she is there to protect Jon and so are the Kingsguard. But it isn't essential she be there and regardless of the theory there are reasons to think something else is going on. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The evidence against R+E = J is very weak

Tell me again how Elia's son looks like Ned's younger clone.